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  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

The Pledge stays as it is...

Rae

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recitation of the Pledge is neither required
Evidence, please.

nor can it be deemed a prayer
1. Yes, it can.

2. It is a government proclamation that this is a nation under God. The government has no business, under our First Amendment law, declaring the U.S. a nation under God or a nation under no God. It is to remain neutral. So yes, it should be struck. Simple as that.

there really is no church-state entanglement
Yes. There really is. There would be if it said under Jesus, under Buddha, under Allah, or under no God.
 
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crystalpc

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Michigan is not a right to work state, here if your shop, or school is unionized you have to join. We were not told that we could have diverted our dues to a charity..that is what you heard a few weeks ago, the NEA saying that they always told us we could, when all they told us was that we had to pay, or we could not work. My district was a well financed district, one of the best in the state when I worked there. Franklin and Stevenson High schools were graded A schools for the university here. It has been a while, I left when the MS became advanced in 1988. We were always concerned about losing federal funding..our principals made life miserable for any conservative thinking individual.
 
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Philosoft

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Larry said:
However, interpretation of the Constitution is the limit of the judges. This is where some step over the line. For example, the ruling that the 2000 ballot re-count should cease was, in my opinion, over the line. Wouldn't you agree?
Yes, I would. However, I completely fail to see what this has to do with the issue in Newdow. I don't criticise SCOTUS because I believe they were usurping power, I criticise them because I think they made an incorrect ruling.
Forgive my apparently erroneous assumptions. It's just that I'm used to seeing complaints about judges "making law" followed by complaints about "judicial activism."
Tell me, Philosoft. In your world, what color is the sky?
Right now? Black.
 
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Philosoft

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crystalpc said:
Move to China...there wasn't that easy?
Of course it's easy to say. It takes the place of an actual argument and insults your opponent at the same time. That's why reasonable people don't say such things.
 
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crystalpc

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Philosoft said:
Of course it's easy to say. It takes the place of an actual argument and insults your opponent at the same time. That's why reasonable people don't say such things.
I am very reasonable..I won't force them to move..
 
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Larry

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So we are down to getting hung up on the semantics of "incorrect rulings" and "usurping power". And all this, you think, is far removed from "making law"? How convenient for you.


Chin up, friend. I hope the sky brightens up in your world. Be of good cheer. Don't let these things get to you.
 
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Larry

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If you think the wording of the Pledge equates to government "teaching" that there is a monotheistic God, then you had better remove any and all quotes, statements, preambles and any other historical documents of national archives that use the word God, Almighty, Creator, and a whole slew of divine references, by a whole bunch of American founders, presidents, statesmen, et al. You got your work cut out for you....better get busy.
 
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USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
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GW_in_04 said:
If they truly wanted no part of God and gov't many of the laws and letters written by them would have no mentioning of God. But they do. And so do many of the buildings they built..

Yeah, if that God was Athena.



 
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Philosoft

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Larry said:
So we are down to getting hung up on the semantics of "incorrect rulings" and "usurping power". And all this, you think, is far removed from "making law"? How convenient for you.
I don't even know what's being discussed anymore.

If you're upset with things SCOTUS does, can you please tell me how it relates to this case?
Chin up, friend. I hope the sky brightens up in your world. Be of good cheer. Don't let these things get to you.
I feel fine. The sky is black because it's dark outside.
 
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Larry

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Philosoft said:
I don't even know what's being discussed anymore.

If you're upset with things SCOTUS does, can you please tell me how it relates to this case?
I feel fine. The sky is black because it's dark outside.

Why are you insistant that I am upset over any of this? This is twice you have made such remarks.

Don't answer that. It doesn't matter to me why you are comfortable in thinking that any of this upsets me. Knock yourself out!


I'm going to bed.....not upset over any of this.


Good night.
 
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opus_dei

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er, interesting arguments on both sides. however, no one has seen fit to deal with settled case law which is the only authority on which to base what does and does not violate the establishment clause.

perhaps you all would like to ignore it, i guess and personal opinion is rather irrelevant in this matter....the real question is: if you're pro "god" in the pledge, what would your argument be to keep it in (mind you: u.s. of a. was founded by christians would be laughed out of the courts) and if you are anti-"god" in the pledge, what is your argument. mind you, "by stating 'god' in the pledge you're breaching church / state" is also not a valid argument because as it stands (through state, appellate and SCOTUS) the permissibility of 'god' in the pledge is currently considered consitutional. you know the current rulings that will be referenced, you know the "lemon" test or the acceptable uses carved out by SCOTUS rulings....what really is the argument?

and, from my reading of the ruling, b/c newdow was judged to have no standing not only was the case thrown back to the district level, all judgments are thus vacated due to the fact that it was ruled that he never had standing in the first place.

as for nasreddin, i'm tired too and going to bed. lol.

cheers.
o.d.

[edit] absent a court ruling (that's held up if challenged) any law currently on the books is de facto constitutional until ruled otherwise.
 
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seebs

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The existence of rulings claiming something constitutional doesn't necessarily mean it is. Anti-miscegenation laws were considered constitutional... But they weren't really.

Anyway, I continue to be horrified that Christians are actively promoting the practice of making millions of innocent kids take God's name in vain. It's so far from right I can't imagine how this is happening.

It's bad enough that we strongly encourage kids to swear oaths they aren't old enough to genuinely mean. That just sets up the expectation that oaths are just mouth noises.

But... Putting God in it is just blasphemous.
 
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opus_dei

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seebs said:
The existence of rulings claiming something constitutional doesn't necessarily mean it is. Anti-miscegenation laws were considered constitutional... But they weren't really.
er, until it's ruled unconstitutional it is, by definition, constitutional. whether it's "right" or not is a philosophical debate. the pledge as it stands now is entirely, 100% USDA-Prime constitutional.

anti-miscegenation laws were ruled unconstitutional by the supreme court in 1967. the case was loving vs. virginia and the court stated in the opening paragraph that the issues brought before the court hadn't even been considered prior to the case.

again, whether it was right or not is not the issue rather that miscegenation WAS constitutional (there was not a federal court ruling binding on the entire US either on the topic). marriage was, and is, still a state issue subject to federal judicial oversight and compliance with current settled US law.
 
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reverend B

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it seems to me that three doesn't quite make a quorum. any other commentary you want to quote?
 
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opus_dei

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paula-

1) the constitutionality of the issue is indeed about the "manner perscribed by congress." moreover, the courts have held, time and time again that there are instances where is is permissible to mention God. should we, per chance, also stop teaching students about the declaration of independence?

2) justice o'connor outlined in which instances are permissible in her concurrence with the lynch case i mentioned earlier. for futher times where it's permitted read a few pages back or read brennan's concurrence in Schempp, 374 U.S. at 303-04. (which is also quoted a few pages back)the supreme court does not act on a "reasonable presumption" of ANYTHING. that argument alone is logical fallacy and makes for horrid case law. moreover, the statistics used would most likely never see the light of day at trial.

3) instead of making ad hominem attacks on the justices please take a second to read a) settled case law on the topic and b) the entire newdow opinion.
 
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opus_dei

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as for 1) see west virginia state board of education v. barnette (1943) where it was ruled wholly unconstitutional to force someone to recite the pledge. there have been many cases since then that have reaffirmed this ruling.

as for 2), well you're not correct.

i feel like i'm, er, hollering at the wind here. while we all have personal opinions on the matter (and a wide range at that!) they're all entirely irrelevant. well, not necessarily irrelevant rather "hollow" arguments as they do not address the merits of the particular case. the current laws on the books as ruled by the us supreme court on occasions almost too numerous to count.
 
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Philosoft

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Well, I don't happen to agree with ceremonial deism as a sound legal doctrine in the first place. I think the attempts to convice us that the word "God" has lost its religious meaning in certain specific contexts (curiously, always specified after-the-fact) are hopelessly transparent. They amount to cop-out defenses like, 'It's been there for a long time so it must not be religious anymore' and O'Connor's laughable 'A reasonable person would agree that it has little religious meaning' (said "reasonable person" no doubt being a theist).

In any case, the idea that a "religious meaning" argument applies here is ridiculous and utterly belied by the near-furor from the Christian majority that erupted in support of "under God."

Then we're told that "under God" has the secular purpose of being a historical reminder. It occurs to me, however, that the history of religion in this country is probably slightly too complex to be summarized by two words. Perhaps I just don't quite understand this one.
and, from my reading of the ruling, b/c newdow was judged to have no standing not only was the case thrown back to the district level, all judgments are thus vacated due to the fact that it was ruled that he never had standing in the first place.
I think this is correct.
 
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Rae

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2), well you're not correct.
Your personal opinion, with which I obviously disagree and will continue to disagree with.

People can be forced to do things under threat of violence. Happens all the time in school, regardless of Constitutionality ... which is what I was referring to. Or did you miss my experience that kids and parents are willing to force others to say the Pledge or be beaten up?
 
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Rae

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Not to mention, can teachers refuse to lead the Pledge? Can schools refuse to have the Pledge said in them? I haven't heard that either can. I have heard, in connection with the Newdow case, that teachers HAVE to lead it and that schools REQUIRE it to be led ... that sounds to me like SOMEONE's being forced to recite it...
 
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