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The Philosophy of Original Sin, Dissecting Genesis.

Colter

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The book of Genesis and the ideas therein serve as the foundation for original sin philosophy as well as the creation of man.

The narrative of Genesis is a retrospective, written from the vantage point of the people in one age concerning their religious heritage as it relates to the experience of their ancestors. It provides and explanation for where they are and were they hope to go as a faithful people.

The vantage point is the captivity period of Babylon which the redacted material dates to. Some elements of the writings appear older but are mixed with redactions or edits that place the writings around the period of the captivity.

The narratives make interesting but inconsistent statements about "original sin" as well as original man.

* Adam and Eve are said to have materialized as first, a full grown man, then a full grown women, both of whom are previously educated, speak the same language and have a knowledge of a Gods requirements for them. Considering what we know about the earth now, it's age, the evolutionary record of life exposed by geology and archaeology, Adam and Eve would be classified as extra terrestrial.​

* An unexplained "crafty beast" appears in the narrative (later books would say he was the devil). This beast was already fallen, already evil, already working against Gods plan for the pair, he spoke the same language, he also knew what Gods will was for them. Sin was already on the earth in the fallen devil, it was not original to A&E. The crafty beast was Sinful, first Eve then Adam succumb to the persuasions of the "beast".​

* There were 2 important trees in the garden home, one was the figurative tree of forbidden fruit (opposing Gods will) the other was "the tree of life" (it sustained the pairs immortality status) but was taken from them upon their fall. Death came to the pair, not the earth. Death was already normal for man, we can see that in the archeological record.

*** The sin of Eve caused a biological change within her descendants, the severe pains of childbirth experienced by certain demographics in the world, not the entire population.

* Cain would leave the garden after killing his brother, but he was fearful of the tribes of a populated earth. He would go to the land of Nod where he found a wife and became ruler of a city.​


The philosophy of original sin does not stand up to scrutiny even within the narrative used to establish the concept.

Sin has always been a choice inherent within the children of God high and low. Death is a normal fact of life, Christ himself elected to pass through the experience of death while on earth.
 
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ThinkForYourself

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... Christ himself elected to pass through the experience of death while on earth.

No he didn't.

A big part, maybe the biggest part, of the death experience is entering into the unknown. Christ never did that.

As well, he never died, he simply transported himself back to heaven.
 
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Colter

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No he didn't.

A big part, maybe the biggest part, of the death experience is entering into the unknown. Christ never did that.

As well, he never died, he simply transported himself back to heaven.

The mortal body of Jesus died not his spirit, the incarnate Son returned in a new form, then he went back to his place in heaven.
 
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Colter

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Adam and Eve re-enacted the 'original sin' of the one known by many as 'Lucifer', under the 'direction' of God.

Just so I understand you, are you saying that God lead Lucifer to cause A&E to reenact Lucifer's own original sin?
 
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Davian

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Indeed. But then, this is just a bible story, and does not appear to have any relation to reality. Evolutionary theory explains the childbirth issues, where many women and child dies every year (my wife and first child needed medical intervention).
Sin has always been a choice inherent within the children of God high and low. Death is a normal fact of life, Christ himself elected to pass through the experience of death while on earth.

A bad weekend, then be a god. Was there mention of a "sacrifice"?
 
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ThinkForYourself

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The mortal body of Jesus died not his spirit, the incarnate Son returned in a new form, then he went back to his place in heaven.

So he discarded his human carcass after he finished with it. Big deal.

Lets look at what really happened:

God, who is omnipresent put part of himself into a human carcass for a couple of decades. Then his carcass got pinned to a cross for three days. Assuming Jesus isn't a [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], he obviously turned off the pain sensors in the human carcass, and so could enjoy the view for three days.

Then Jesus left his human carcass for a bit. Then Jesus returned to his human carcass. Then Jesus left his human carcass and returned to heaven.


Now lets compare the positives to the negatives:

Positives:

Gets to be ruler of everything
Gets to live in the most wonderful place ever
Gets to live forever

Negatives

Possible boredom because he had to put part of himself into a human carcass for three decades.


I don't see any suffering. As a matter of fact, this is a deal any human on earth would jump at, and would think they are the luckiest person alive, which they would be.

So in reality, Jesus didn't make any kind of sacrifice, rather he won the biggest and best lottery in all eternity. Yeah, it sure would be a sacrifice to win that.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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That would make God both good and evil, double minded, two opposing wills.

God's purpose is the restoration of the kingdom. Recall that God waged notably cruel wars through his people Israel. This along with many laws that are also considered cruel is considered by many to reveal an evil side of God.
 
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Colter

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God's purpose is the restoration of the kingdom. Recall that God waged notably cruel wars through his people Israel. This along with many laws that are also considered cruel is considered by many to reveal an evil side of God.

It genuinely stuns me to hear someone promote God as evil.

Even as a child in Sunday school it was obvious to me that the authors of the Old Testament books were writing their own evil history as if God had moved them to behave in that way.

The same people who rejected the Loving Father revealed in the life of Jesus, who shamefully tried to discredit and stop him by way of a trumped up trial, who tortured and murdered him in the most cruel way, whose Father Jesus called "the devil", they are the authors of those books that claim God lead them in genocide and child rape!

Good is good
 
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lesliedellow

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The philosophy of original sin does not stand up to scrutiny even within the narrative used to establish the concept.

You cannot dispose of original sin without dismantling the whole of Christian theology; starting with the writings of Paul:

"Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification." (Romans 5.14-16)


"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." (1 Cor 15.22)
 
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Colter

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That is true....of Christian theology. But original sin and atoning human sacrifice was not central to the original gospel of Jesus.

* The good news gospel of Jesus was contaminated by the old ways of Judaism and the Pagan theology of Rome.

"And no one puts a patch of unfinished cloth on an old, torn garment, because the patch will weaken the garment and the tear will be made worse."​
 
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lesliedellow

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That is true....of Christian theology. But original sin and atoning human sacrifice was not central to the original gospel of Jesus.

The words of Jesus himself:

"Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many." (Matt 20.28)

That is a direct reference to the annual Jewish day of atonement, in which a goat was sacriticed to atone for the sins of Israel. It might be as well to remember that Jesus himself was a practising Jew, and his conception of God would have been the Jewish conception.

Like many people nowadays, you want to invent your own religion, whilst purloining the already taken name of Christianity for that new religion.
 
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Colter

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And he did give his life as a spiritual contribution to man’s inner experience. Jesus spent his life on the cross of human experience, he revealed God to man.

In the original gospel lived and preached by Jesus and the 12, some 3+ years before the cross, salvation was by faith, God was already forgiving, God has always been forgiving, the death of his innocent Son was not a requirement for Gods forgiveness, but it was a requirement in the Pagan religions of Rome. After Jesus left a new gospel about the cross and the risen Christ began to evolve into Christianity.
 
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Colter

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lesliedellow

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And he did give his life as a spiritual contribution to man’s inner experience. Jesus spent his life on the cross of human experience, he revealed God to man.

Stop trying to twist the meaning of words. Giving his life as "a ransom (λυτπο&#957 for many," means an offering to God for the pardoning of the guilty parties.

In any case, how very convenient it is that, according to you, the epistles have been infected by Roman paganism, but the gospels have somehow escaped the same fate. It is even stranger given that the gospels were written after the epistles, and if the revisionists had been active at the time Paul wrote, they certainly would have been by the time the gospels came to be written.
 
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Colter

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You misunderstood me, I was referring to "the gospel" taught by Jesus long before the cross, and then the ALL the NT writings which were influenced by Paul's preaching and teaching was well underway.

That is to say that when the gospels were written Paul's atonement doctrine was already influencing the authors of the gospels and how they "recollected" the meaning of Jesus.

Christians often disagree with me on this.
 
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lesliedellow

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Well, since you don't have to rely upon the New Testament, for your knowledge of what Jesus said and did, and since, on the basis of your superior knowledge you know that the New Testament misrepresents Jesus, I must assume that you were an eye witness to the earthly ministry of Jesus.
 
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