The Pay Gap

[Krav Maga]

Lets talk pay gap. There are many reasons I see for the pay gap. Today, in the workforce, men make up 93.8% of construction workers, 87.5 percent of law enforcement, 84% of military (men are drafted women are not), 95% in waste disposal, 73.6% farmers, 96.4% of mechanics, 88.2% of firefighters, 93.9% wielders, electricians 95.6%, 96.2% coal mining, 96.5% plumbers, 86.3% engineers, Nuclear plants operators 92%, 98.1% oil riggers and I can go on and on.

The fact is men do more dangerous jobs and for this reason statistically men take up the vast majority of workplace fatalities. Women take more time off of work due to maternity leave and other reasons. Plus as I made a thread earlier where most agree men should pay for the meals on dates leading to a bigger financial responsibility. Men, after a divorce, are more likely to be paying child support, lose the family home, becoming homeless (men make up the vast majority of homeless) and lose their children statistically ever since the Tender Years Doctrine.

I believe the pay gap is easily fixable if we work towards equality for both men and women.

What are your thoughts?

 

[Tropical Wilds]

Lets talk pay gap. There are many reason I see for the pay gap such as today 93.8% of construction workers are men, 87.5 percent of law enforcement, 84% of military, 95% in waste disposal, 73.6% farmers, 96.4% of mechanics, 88.2% of firefighters, 93.9% wielders, electricians 95.6%, 96.2% coal mining, 96.5% plumbers, 86.3% engineers, Nuclear plants operators 92%, 93.8% of construction workers, 98.1% oil riggers are men and I can go on and on.

The fact is men do more dangerous jobs and for this reason statistically men take up the vast majority of workplace fatalities. Women take more time off of work due to maternity leave and other reasons. Plus as I made a thread earlier where most agree men should pay for the meals on dates leading to a bigger financial responsibility. Men after a divorce are more likely to be paying child support, lose the family home becoming homeless (men make up the vast majority of homeless) and lose their children statistically ever since the Tender Years Doctrine.

I believe the pay gap is easily fixable if we work towards equality for both men and women.

What are your thoughts?

So your argument is because in those specially selected fields which are “more dangerous,” all men should be paid more than all women? Or that because most of those people in those fields are men, a female should be paid less?

You realize the irony of bemoaning how women won’t fulfill traditional gender roles in one thread, but then jumping to another thread and saying if they do maintain those gender roles by having children then they should be paid less?

In social service, teaching, and health industries women make up the majority. While not dangerous (though I’d say teaching is as dangerous as being a police officer), they are critical for infrastructure and maintaining a functional population. Does that mean they should be paid more than men?

 

[Krav Maga]

So your argument is because in those specially selected fields which are “more dangerous,” all men should be paid more than all women? Or that because most of those people in those fields are men, a female should be paid less?

You realize the irony of bemoaning how women won’t fulfill traditional gender roles in one thread, but then jumping to another thread and saying if they do maintain those gender roles by having children then they should be paid less?

In social service, teaching, and health industries women make up the majority. While not dangerous (though I’d say teaching is as dangerous as being a police officer), they are critical for infrastructure and maintaining a functional population. Does that mean they should be paid more than men?

Should men be paid for a job that is more dangerous? Yes men working that particular job should definitely be paid more. Do you agree in those fields men should be paid more? If not please explain.

There’s no irony there as most women want equality and I am not suggesting otherwise. What I am saying even in the other thread you’re referring to is simply men and women should be treated equally (even pay equally on a date). By paying equally and working in those same fields as men for the same amount of hours I believe you would see the pay gap isn’t as many make it out to be. As I mentioned women take more time off of work then men in general and men lose more in divorce’s. If we treated both men and women equally things would improve for both sexes.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

Should men be paid for a job that is more dangerous? Yes men working that particular job should definitely be paid more. Do you agree in those fields men should be paid more? If not please explain.

[/QUOTE]

To be clear, you’re saying men who are in a dangerous career should be paid more than their female coworkers.

There’s no irony there as most women want equality and I am not suggesting otherwise. What I am saying even in the other thread you’re referring to is simply men and women should be treated equally (even pay equally on a date). By paying equally and working in those same fields as men for the same amount of hours I believe you would see the pay gap isn’t as many make it out to be. As I mentioned women take more time off of work then men in general and men lose more in divorce’s. If we treated both men and women equally things would improve for both sexes.

The pay gap is statistically proven. Things like men paying for a date does not make up the difference and it’s silly to say so. If a woman makes .80 to your $1, you picking up dinner and a movie socially does not make it easier for her to pay her bills and you have a greatly inflated sense of the financial impact of a date if you think so. I’ve never once said “whew, my groceries, rent, and utilities are going to be so much cheaper this month thanks to the 5 dates I had with that guy.”

As for the divorce statistics, those are blatantly false. Women’s financial standard of living drops 45%, men’s 21%. Women are more likely to take a second job to remain solvent, pay more for childcare and extracurricular activities, and have less social development time than men. Women are less likely to keep the marital home as well.

The Financial Impact Of Divorce

Navigating a divorce is not only stressful but financially challenging.

www.forbes.com

 

[comana]

Should men be paid for a job that is more dangerous? Yes men working that particular job should definitely be paid more. Do you agree in those fields men should be paid more? If not please explain.

There’s no irony there as most women want equality and I am not suggesting otherwise. What I am saying even in the other thread you’re referring to is simply men and women should be treated equally (even pay equally on a date). By paying equally and working in those same fields as men for the same amount of hours I believe you would see the pay gap isn’t as many make it out to be. As I mentioned women take more time off of work then men in general and men lose more in divorce’s. If we treated both men and women equally things would improve for both sexes.

A job that is dangerous should have a wage commensurate with the risk for a man or woman performing that work.

Women take more time off because the majority of the burden of child care falls to the mother. Many countries have instituted parental leave available to both parents to help alleviate the burden disproportionately falling to one parent.

 

[Krav Maga]

A job that is dangerous should have a wage commensurate with the risk for a man or woman performing that work.

Women take more time off because the majority of the burden of child care falls to the mother. Many countries have instituted parental leave available to both parents to help alleviate the burden disproportionately falling to one parent.

I agree. Yet statistically men take up those jobs and women wonder why they’re getting paid more. For example when I worked in a seeding company in Caldwell Idaho the men worked with dangerous chemicals (that landed me in a wheelchair for 2 years) and the women worked inside an air conditioned rooms. The women complained that they were not being paid the same as the men outside. This was laughable as I knew guys who died, yet the women were kept safe. Same when I helped in construction in TX men did the most dangerous jobs as women were put in safer jobs. Both have the same title but both do separately different jobs. That’s just my experience.

In the US since the Tender Years Doctrine that was started by a woman, fathers couldn’t have custody. Now things are getting better but not by much as now men lose 90% of custody cases compared to 100% in the 19th century. If you want sources just ask. In the US men are just starting to get maternity leave but not in every state. In some men are still expected to work as the mother gets up to 12 weeks off. Yet still complain on the pay gap yet women account for the most that take time off.

 

[comana]

I agree. Yet statistically men take up those jobs and women wonder why they’re getting paid more. For example when I worked in a seeding company in Caldwell Idaho the men worked with dangerous chemicals (that landed me in a wheelchair for 2 years) and the women worked inside an air conditioned rooms. The women complained that they were not being paid the same as the men outside. This was laughable as I knew guys who died, yet the women were kept safe. Same when I helped in construction in TX men did the most dangerous jobs as women were put in safer jobs. Both have the same title but both do separately different jobs. That’s just my experience.

In the US since the Tender Years Doctrine that was started by a woman, fathers couldn’t have custody. Now things are getting better but not by much as now men lose 90% of custody cases compared to 100% in the 19th century. If you want sources just ask. In the US men are just starting to get maternity leave but not in every state. In some men are still expected to work as the mother gets up to 12 weeks off. Yet still complain on the pay gap yet women account for the most that take time off.

The pay gap isn’t referring to some types of jobs pay more than others though. It refers to men a women in the same position and the women being paid less.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

I agree. Yet statistically men take up those jobs and women wonder why they’re getting paid more. For example when I worked in a seeding company in Caldwell Idaho the men worked with dangerous chemicals (that landed me in a wheelchair for 2 years) and the women worked inside an air conditioned rooms. The women complained that they were not being paid the same as the men outside. This was laughable as I knew guys who died, yet the women were kept safe. Same when I helped in construction in TX men did the most dangerous jobs as women were put in safer jobs. Both have the same title but both do separately different jobs. That’s just my experience.

[/QUOTE]

So yes, you feel that women doing the same job are worth less and should be paid less.

So, like I said in the other thread, this discussion is no longer worth my attention.

In the US since the Tender Years Doctrine that was started by a woman, fathers couldn’t have custody. Now things are getting better but not by much as now men lose 90% of custody cases compared to 100% in the 19th century. If you want sources just ask. In the US men are just starting to get maternity leave but not in every state. In some men are still expected to work as the mother gets up to 12 weeks off. Yet still complain on the pay gap yet women account for the most that take time off.

Men didn’t get custody historically because they didn’t want custody, actually. Because women were held to gender norms of “you deal with the kids,” it meant men were totally ok with not having custody. Now joint custody and equal visitation is the overwhelming norm and the default standard in a large majority of states, however statistically it is still the men who are absentee post-divorce, not women. So that 90% claim is false. Personally, on an anecdotal level, my husband divorced and had kids and was concerned about the “now she takes the kids” trope. Every lawyer he spoke to said men who are actively involved overwhelmingly get joint custody as that is the standard and he had nothing to worry about, and every one said in the cases they had where that wasn’t the case, there was a tangible and easily identifiable reason especially given most judges are men. Since you’re talking to somebody who’s husband was granted full, sole custody, sole decision making, and awarded child support of the kids post-divorce, so the “men are victimized by judges in divorce” thing falls on the deafest of ears with me.

In the US, paid maternity leave isn’t a right. It’s an employer benefit offered at employer discretion, but the average woman gets only 4 weeks of paid leave. The 12 weeks you’re citing is what they can get through FMLA, but FMLA is also available to fathers… So the claim that women get 12 weeks via FMLA but men don’t is also false.

So, I see you repeating a lot of tropes, but not a lot of truths. Not that I suspect that matters because this isn’t a discussion about equality, it’s a discussion about why everybody is equal but men should be more equal, and how hard and sad it is for them when they aren’t. A conversation I won’t deign to dignify with my attention.

 

[Krav Maga]

To be clear, you’re saying men who are in a dangerous career should be paid more than their female coworkers.


The pay gap is statistically proven. Things like men paying for a date does not make up the difference and it’s silly to say so. If a woman makes .80 to your $1, you picking up dinner and a movie socially does not make it easier for her to pay her bills and you have a greatly inflated sense of the financial impact of a date if you think so. I’ve never once said “whew, my groceries, rent, and utilities are going to be so much cheaper this month thanks to the 5 dates I had with that guy.”

As for the divorce statistics, those are blatantly false. Women’s financial standard of living drops 45%, men’s 21%. Women are more likely to take a second job to remain solvent, pay more for childcare and extracurricular activities, and have less social development time than men. Women are less likely to keep the marital home as well.

The Financial Impact Of Divorce

Navigating a divorce is not only stressful but financially challenging.

www.forbes.com

There are many studies and articles for and against the pay gap like the one below for example that cites statistics.

The divorce statistics are true as I wouldn’t state something that I couldn’t back up. Also if what you cited was true then men wouldn’t be more at risk being homeless or suicidal after a divorce. I will cite the sources for you.

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/05/the-biggest-myth-about-the-gender-wage-gap/276367/

Statistics: Children & Divorce

Thinking about divorce? Here are some statistics to help you identify trends and scenarios that your children will deal with when going through the divorce process.

www.owenbylaw.com

Divorce For Men: Why Do Women Get Child Custody More Often? | Genesis Family Law and Divorce Lawyers

Divorce For Men: Why Do Women Get Child Custody More Often? Divorce cases have constantly been on the rise among American families over the past few decades. The termination of a marriage by itself is just one among many other pertinent considerations couples have to face along the divorce...

familylawattorneymesaaz.net

https://medium.com/@Autam/child-support-a-modern-system-abusing-men-926f585bbfc3?mibextid=Zxz2cZ

Dads Represent 85% Of Child Support Providers, Pay More Than Female Payers - Dads Divorce

Men not only make up 85% of child support payors, but when women are ordered to pay child support they get to pay much less, according to child support statistics.

dadsdivorce.com

Demographic Data Project: Gender and Individual Homelessness

Homelessness in America is largely a gendered phenomenon. Men are the overwhelming majority individuals counted in the HUD-required annual Point-in-Time Count. They are also more likely...

endhomelessness.org

Divorce Is a Risk Factor for Suicide, Especially for Men

Why are divorced men more likely to die by suicide than divorced women?

www.psychologytoday.com

By the Numbers: Men and depression

Facts on the number of men in the United States who suffer from depression and anxiety.

www.apa.org

 

[Tall Timbers]

Lets talk pay gap. There are many reasons I see for the pay gap. Today, in the workforce, men make up 93.8% of construction workers, 87.5 percent of law enforcement, 84% of military (men are drafted women are not), 95% in waste disposal, 73.6% farmers, 96.4% of mechanics, 88.2% of firefighters, 93.9% wielders, electricians 95.6%, 96.2% coal mining, 96.5% plumbers, 86.3% engineers, Nuclear plants operators 92%, 98.1% oil riggers and I can go on and on.

The fact is men do more dangerous jobs and for this reason statistically men take up the vast majority of workplace fatalities. Women take more time off of work due to maternity leave and other reasons. Plus as I made a thread earlier where most agree men should pay for the meals on dates leading to a bigger financial responsibility. Men, after a divorce, are more likely to be paying child support, lose the family home, becoming homeless (men make up the vast majority of homeless) and lose their children statistically ever since the Tender Years Doctrine.

I believe the pay gap is easily fixable if we work towards equality for both men and women.

What are your thoughts?

Men and women are not equal. They are quite different from each other. Is there really a pay gap or are we led to believe that?

 

[Krav Maga]

So yes, you feel that women doing the same job are worth less and should be paid less.

So, like I said in the other thread, this discussion is no longer worth my attention.



Men didn’t get custody historically because they didn’t want custody, actually. Because women were held to gender norms of “you deal with the kids,” it meant men were totally ok with not having custody. Now joint custody and equal visitation is the overwhelming norm and the default standard in a large majority of states, however statistically it is still the men who are absentee post-divorce, not women. So that 90% claim is false. Personally, on an anecdotal level, my husband divorced and had kids and was concerned about the “now she takes the kids” trope. Every lawyer he spoke to said men who are actively involved overwhelmingly get joint custody as that is the standard and he had nothing to worry about, and every one said in the cases they had where that wasn’t the case, there was a tangible and easily identifiable reason especially given most judges are men. Since you’re talking to somebody who’s husband was granted full, sole custody, sole decision making, and awarded child support of the kids post-divorce, so the “men are victimized by judges in divorce” thing falls on the deafest of ears with me.

In the US, paid maternity leave isn’t a right. It’s an employer benefit offered at employer discretion, but the average woman gets only 4 weeks of paid leave. The 12 weeks you’re citing is what they can get through FMLA, but FMLA is also available to fathers… So the claim that women get 12 weeks via FMLA but men don’t is also false.

So, I see you repeating a lot of tropes, but not a lot of truths. Not that I suspect that matters because this isn’t a discussion about equality, it’s a discussion about why everybody is equal but men should be more equal, and how hard and sad it is for them when they aren’t. A conversation I won’t deign to dignify with my attention.

You make many claims that aren’t held by facts. 90% claim backed it by two law firms above and with statistical data. Plus that men didn’t want custody is false as well many father rights groups exist because men want custody. The Tender Years Doctrine was started by a woman by the name of Caroline Norton.

The city of LA is currently being sued after the system failed like so many fathers from hearing their pleas that the mother was unfit and dangerous. Yet so many fathers were not heard and children were killed as a result such as in the cases of Melissa Freiberger-Partee (Brighton, Michigan), Janee Pedescleaux (New Orleans), Shamaiya Deyonshanaye Hall (Italy, Texas), Karina Sornoza Deitering (San Antonio), Marilyn Kay Edg (Santa Ana), Ashley Palmer (Portland), Julissa Thaler (Minn), Veronica Youngblood (VA), Lindsay Clancy (Mass), Debra Jeter (Hillsboro, TX), Connie Henriksen Foster (Huntsville Ala), Brandi Worley (darlington indiana) and dozens of others. These are all in recent years and still climbing. Liliana Carrillo who killed her children in the article below, her husband pleaded with the courts and CPS on multiple occasions that fell on deaf ears. Why because they valued the mothers word over the fathers.

Father of three small children allegedly drowned by their mother sues city and county of Los Angeles

Erik Denton's suit claims that the Los Angeles Police Department and the County Department of Child Protective Services repeatedly ignored warnings about the dangers the mother, Lilliana Carrillo, posed to the three children.

www.cbsnews.com

Or this mother below that the father said she was dangerous and even tested positive for drugs was not heard till she killed her children. Why? Because they valued the mother like so many in this country.

Louisiana mom FaceTimed her ex to show how she’d slit his kids’ throats: cops

A Louisiana mom repeatedly video called her ex after slitting their two young kids’ throats — showing him his daughter “gasping for air” before she died, according to harrow…

nypost.com

Also in California and many other states women get 12 weeks as well. Yet not all states even recognize men yet for any leave regarding maternity.

https://edd.ca.gov/siteassets/files/pdf_pub_ctr/de8520.pdf

 

[Clare73]

Lets talk pay gap. There are many reasons I see for the pay gap. Today, in the workforce, men make up 93.8% of construction workers, 87.5 percent of law enforcement, 84% of military (men are drafted women are not), 95% in waste disposal, 73.6% farmers, 96.4% of mechanics, 88.2% of firefighters, 93.9% wielders, electricians 95.6%, 96.2% coal mining, 96.5% plumbers, 86.3% engineers, Nuclear plants operators 92%, 98.1% oil riggers and I can go on and on.

The fact is men do more dangerous jobs and for this reason statistically men take up the vast majority of workplace fatalities. Women take more time off of work due to maternity leave and other reasons. Plus as I made a thread earlier where most agree men should pay for the meals on dates leading to a bigger financial responsibility. Men, after a divorce, are more likely to be paying child support, lose the family home, becoming homeless (men make up the vast majority of homeless) and lose their children statistically ever since the Tender Years Doctrine.

I believe the pay gap is easily fixable if we work towards equality for both men and women.

What are your thoughts?

Let the market decide what your contribution is worth.

 

[Astrid]

Lets talk pay gap. There are many reasons I see for the pay gap. Today, in the workforce, men make up 93.8% of construction workers, 87.5 percent of law enforcement, 84% of military (men are drafted women are not), 95% in waste disposal, 73.6% farmers, 96.4% of mechanics, 88.2% of firefighters, 93.9% wielders, electricians 95.6%, 96.2% coal mining, 96.5% plumbers, 86.3% engineers, Nuclear plants operators 92%, 98.1% oil riggers and I can go on and on.

The fact is men do more dangerous jobs and for this reason statistically men take up the vast majority of workplace fatalities. Women take more time off of work due to maternity leave and other reasons. Plus as I made a thread earlier where most agree men should pay for the meals on dates leading to a bigger financial responsibility. Men, after a divorce, are more likely to be paying child support, lose the family home, becoming homeless (men make up the vast majority of homeless) and lose their children statistically ever since the Tender Years Doctrine.

I believe the pay gap is easily fixable if we work towards equality for both men and women.

What are your thoughts?

What is equality?

 

[Soyeong]

The pay gap isn’t referring to some types of jobs pay more than others though. It refers to men a women in the same position and the women being paid less.

If there were a wage gap where businesses owners could get away with paying women to do the same job for less, then why wouldn't there be a strong preference to hire women instead of men?

 

[comana]

If there were a wage gap where businesses owners could get away with paying women to do the same job for less, then why wouldn't there be a strong preference to hire women instead of men?

Probably because the problem runs deeper than getting away with paying women less and is more about pervasive attitudes towards women in the workplace and their place in society in general that women are still striving to overcome.

 

[rjs330]

Should men be paid for a job that is more dangerous? Yes men working that particular job should definitely be paid more. Do you agree in those fields men should be paid more? If not please explain.

There’s no irony there as most women want equality and I am not suggesting otherwise. What I am saying even in the other thread you’re referring to is simply men and women should be treated equally (even pay equally on a date). By paying equally and working in those same fields as men for the same amount of hours I believe you would see the pay gap isn’t as many make it out to be. As I mentioned women take more time off of work then men in general and men lose more in divorce’s. If we treated both men and women equally things would improve for both sexes.

This has been proven over and over again. There is no pay gap. It's a myth. Men and women when working the same fields, same hours, same position, same experience, education etc, earn the same money.

 

[rjs330]

Men and women are not equal. They are quite different from each other. Is there really a pay gap or are we led to believe that?

Nope.