The Original Sin?

[Law of Loud]

Something struck me about an hour ago, and after reading through two copies of the Bible, I have yet to come to any sort of conclusion on the matter, so I'd like to ask you all for ideas on the matter, or perhaps an answer.

Genesis 2:17)17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Genesis 3:12-24)12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat. 13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat. 14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: 15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. 16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. 17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. 20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living. 21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them. 22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

I recognize that Adam and Eve clearly disobeyed God and that they made a mistake. But a couple things make me question whether they actually sinned.

First, could Adam and Eve sin without the very knowledge of good and evil, and without that very knowledge, could that act have been a sin?

Secondly, the consequences of this seem very different from those normal prescribed for a "sin". Read through the consequences of this sin, and I think you'll notice - as I did - that the consequences God gives for this sin are very different than those of any other sin, in so far as much as I am aware.

Please respond if you will, as this really perplexes me.

 

[armothe]

Adam and Eve were created in a state of naivity meaning they did not know the difference between good and evil. However just because you don't know the difference, doesn't mean you can't practice it.

Both Adam and Eve walked with God in the garden constantly - they had a loving relationship with Him. This of course is good behavior; to them it was normality...neutrality...naivity. Yet because they had not yet experienced evil, they had no knowledge of what made good, good or what made evil, evil.

When they sinned (an act opposite of love) evil became real to them and their eyes were now opened to the difference between good and evil.

The wages of sin is death, spiritual death, of which they were cursed. Their punishment consisted of being cast out into the garden away from God's presence - which pretty much sums up exactly what spiritual death is.

Again, just because you aren't aware of what something is, doesn't make it any less real. For example, if you visit a different city, state, country where their laws are different, and unknowingly break one of them - you aren't automatically absolved from the crime just because you didn't know. Rather you may receive a lighter punishment (or not). By the same token, if a child, or mentally handicapped person commits the same crime they will more than likely be absolved because they don't contain the same reasoning capacity as a normal adult.

-A

 

[cubanito]

I invite someone familiar with Hebrew to correct me if I'm wrong, for I do not understand the language. The Hebrew expression "to know" is not equivalent to how we translate it. To "know" for an ancient Jew meant something more than just to "be aquainted with". That is why the most common term for sex is "to know". It involved more than just head understanding, but experiencing something or someone first hand. That is why Adam and Eve BECAME "one flesh" after sex, (even being fashioned from Adam's rib did not automatically make her "known" to Adam). It is why Paul admonishes Christians not to engage a prostitute, and thus become "one flesh". I will refrain from a detailed medical explanation.

Thus, as the previous post hints at, Adam had a superficial understanding of the difference between right and wrong, but not "known" it. In a sense, one can grow (shrink?) in the knowledge of sin by willfully pursuing it. I believe this is indicated by the term "the mystery of iniquity", but that's a long thorny, even mysterious, subject.

It should be noted that while Eve sinned, hers was the lesser for she was deceived, whereas Adam walked into it in full understandingAnd Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. (1Titus 2:13-14). As the command was only given to Adam, it was his sin that doomed us all (cursed is the ground because of YOU (singular)). Eve was not cursed because of what she did directly, but as part of all the earth. Therefore, "the seed of the woman" remained unpolluted by original sin and a virgin birth would produce an immaculate child, a lamb without blemish (original sin) that could take away the sins of the world. Eve was quite awere of this, as she thought her firstborn would be that salvation.

This is interesting to me on several counts:
1-up until the 1800's, it was common belief that only the man had seed, the woman being merely a (hopefully) fertile field for the man to plant. This belief is fairly widespread among cultures, and certainly endemic in the middle east. It supports my view of the inerrant inspiration of Scripture that while the Jews did not believe women had "seed", nonetheless Moses wrote it so.
2-Most cultures, and certainly all those in the middle east, blamed women for just about everything. There was the Jewish mythology of Ishan(???sorry, can't quite remember the name???), the first woman (before Eve) who was an evil temptress, and not afar off Pandora's box. Women were, in general, not highly regarded (though I admit, the Egyptians were a bit less harsh). Yet here we have, in stark contrast to all the "popular" beliefs among the Jews, the blaming of the fall on ADAM. Much is written about Paul's mysogyni, yet it is he who clearly lays the blame of all sin on Adam, and at least partially exculpates Eve.
3- I know of no other belief system that makes it constitutionally IMPOSSIBLE for man to please God. This is one feature that makes Christianity unique (and I believe the most crucial).

JR

 

[hlaltimus]

Quote:
I recognize that Adam and Eve clearly disobeyed God and that they made a mistake. But a couple things make me question whether they actually sinned.

First, could Adam and Eve sin without the very knowledge of good and evil, and without that very knowledge, could that act have been a sin?

Secondly, the consequences of this seem very different from those normal prescribed for a "sin". Read through the consequences of this sin, and I think you'll notice - as I did - that the consequences God gives for this sin are very different than those of any other sin, in so far as much as I am aware.

Please respond if you will, as this really perplexes me.
Yes, it would still be a sin whether Adam and Eve knew why it was a sin or not. The Creator considered sin as a breach of His will and a violation of that will constituted
sin regardless of the ability of the guilty party to understand why it was wrong or not. You see, if the Creator was a truly perfect being, then His will was not something which could be right but something which must be right and Adam should have concluded that with the use of the rational mind with which he was endowed. He shouldn't have had to know why it would be wrong to sin by only knowing of the integrity of the One who declared it to be wrong....Adam could have safely presumed upon God's wisdom, but didn't. Lastly, the consequences of this sin were very uncommon as you rightly observed, but for the following reason: Adam stood as a man much like us and yet very much unlike us in more ways than one. The pertinent difference between him and you or myself is that he was the first man and we were not! As the first man to be created, Adam had the distinction of determining the nature of all who came from his loins, which ability does not reside in us. I did pass the nature of a sinner on to my son, but I did not determine that nature...Adam did and he will get primary credit for it. If you think that this is unfair of God, consider further that the federal headship principle works much to our advantage when we inherit the perfect nature of Christ. Just as Adam the first determined the sinful nature of the race that came from him, so Christ our Lord now determines the godly nature of the race that comes from Him. Great failure here makes place for great success.