The original replacement theology

n2thelight · May 22, 2014

Old Timer said:
You also avoided the simple question..

Is there something wrong with the LORD delivering Israel in the end?

WHY is there a problem with that for so many people?

Simple,they must be saved now,before Christ arrives,just like any other group of people....Or are there any other group of people that shall be saved in the end...

Acts 10:34

Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons

Old Timer · May 22, 2014

n2thelight said:
Simple,they must be saved now,before Christ arrives,just like any other group of people....Or are there any other group of people that shall be saved in the end...

Acts 10:34

Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons

Peter said that they shall be saved in the same way.. by grace through faith.. it's simply with Israel that shall happen at the time of the end, when they're delivered.

n2thelight · May 22, 2014

Old Timer said:
Two things come to mind..

The Lord Jesus Christ alone has already saved every last man in Adam from the first death.. because every last man in Adam shall be raised from the dead bodily.. iow, both the righteous and the wicked are raised from the dead.. and if the wages of sin is death.. then Christ died not for our sins only, but for the sin of the world.

I understand that you have a problem with the bodily resurrection although that is what the scriptures teach.

Secondly.. Because Jerusalem is the city of the Great King and WHERE the Lord shall reign as King over ALL the earth in that DAY..

You know what DAY I'm talking about...

All will die the first death,which is the death of the flesh,regardless of saved or not...The wages of sin,is the 2nd death,which is the death of the soul....

As for the resurrection we can go there again,as you have no idea...

I Thessalonians 4:13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope."

This concern is over "them which are asleep". The concern is over the loved ones that have died and left them, and their decaying bodies are out there in their grave. Paul is saying for us not to be sorry about those Christians who are dead and gone, for that is the concern of the heathen. The heathen's fear comes from their ignorance of God's word, and His promises. The heathen have no hope, for they believe it's over at the burial.

I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

If we believe, as a Christian, that Christ set the example for us; so that we will follow as He did, in dying, and rising again, then "to sleep" is to be dead from the flesh body. The Greek is a simple language, for it's structure allows one to be more precise. The subject in the frame of this verse is; "that ye not be ignorant as to where the dead are." If you're a Christian, you know and believe that Jesus Christ died, was buried, and on the third day arose and came out of the tomb. If you do not believe this, Paul classifies you as ignorant, and heathen [non-believer].

There are many "raisings to the Lord", because every time someone died, there is a raising for that soul to go to the presence of the Lord. "Resurrect" has several meanings in the Bible, in fact every time you stand up for Jesus, you are "resurrected". It means a new life, whether by death, or by the redemption of your soul to a new life in Christ.

Paul is only talking about "where are the dead"And if you are not ignorant,you would know that they are with the father,and that this flesh shall never ever be used again,period!!!!!

n2thelight · May 22, 2014

Old Timer said:
Peter said that they shall be saved in the same way.. by grace through faith.. it's simply with Israel that shall happen at the time of the end, when they're delivered.

Before Christ returns or after?

n2thelight · May 22, 2014

Old Timer said:
Certainly something to consider knowing that the Lord Himself told us plainly that they shall be hated of all nations for His name's sake..

Last time I checked, that was the real gospel.. not the make believe one.

Are we talking Israel or Judah?

Old Timer · May 22, 2014

n2thelight said:
Before Christ returns or after?

I believe that it is before although some may disagree.

Rev 12 shows us the woman with child (Israel) being protected in the wilderness for a time, times, and a half time.. which is clearly before Christ comes.

In my feeble opinion at least..

Old Timer · May 22, 2014

n2thelight said:
Are we talking Israel or Judah?

Israel means Israel.. Judah is part of Israel.. this is basic.

Although I also understand that you're into British Israelism.. which is just another lie to distract men from the true Israel which is right before our eyes.

n2thelight · May 22, 2014

Old Timer said:
Israel means Israel.. Judah is part of Israel.. this is basic.

Although I also understand that you're into British Israelism.. which is just another lie to distract men from the true Israel which is right before our eyes.

Naw,not British Israelism,although I do believe the U.S.is mostly Israel,if you looked at the promises you'd see it plain as day....But anyway when did the two sticks join back together,brother basic?

ebedmelech · May 22, 2014

n2thelight said:
Naw,not British Israelism,although I do believe the U.S.is mostly Israel,if you looked at the promises you'd see it plain as day....But anyway when did the two sticks join back together,brother basic?

I can't agree with that statement...the US isn't any better than any other nation...and certainly not "mostly Israel".

What makes you draw that conclusion? That's as bad as so many pastors saying America was a Christian nation, which is totally erroneous. America is a nation founded on Judeo-Christian principles...but a Christina nation? It NEVER has been that.

I appreciate founding documents like the "Mayflower Compact"...but that no more makes America "Israel" either.

The "Israel of God" is from every tribe, nation, kindred, and tongue...let God sort it out, because you may be quite surprised.

n2thelight · May 22, 2014

ebedmelech said:
I can't agree with that statement...the US isn't any better than any other nation...and certainly not "mostly Israel".

What makes you draw that conclusion? That's as bad as so many pastors saying America was a Christian nation, which is totally erroneous. America is a nation founded on Judeo-Christian principles...but a Christina nation? It NEVER has been that.

I appreciate founding documents like the "Mayflower Compact"...but that no more makes America "Israel" either.

The "Israel of God" is from every tribe, nation, kindred, and tongue...let God sort it out, because you may be quite surprised.

Like I said ,if one were to look at the promises,it's plain as day......

ebedmelech · May 22, 2014

n2thelight said:
Like I said ,if one were to look at the promises,it's plain as day......

What promises? There's not ONE promise to America! You can go down the list and this country has a LONG list of sins...come off it and be objective.

n2thelight · May 22, 2014

ebedmelech said:
What promises? There's not ONE promise to America! You can go down the list and this country has a LONG list of sins...come off it and be objective.

Israel has always been a sinful nation,that's why God divorced her

Genesis 49:1 "And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, "Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days."

And you ask me what prophecies,like I said read them........

Old Timer · May 23, 2014

n2thelight said:
All will die the first death,which is the death of the flesh,regardless of saved or not...The wages of sin,is the 2nd death,which is the death of the soul....

As for the resurrection we can go there again,as you have no idea...

I Thessalonians 4:13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope."

This concern is over "them which are asleep". The concern is over the loved ones that have died and left them, and their decaying bodies are out there in their grave. Paul is saying for us not to be sorry about those Christians who are dead and gone, for that is the concern of the heathen. The heathen's fear comes from their ignorance of God's word, and His promises. The heathen have no hope, for they believe it's over at the burial.

I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

If we believe, as a Christian, that Christ set the example for us; so that we will follow as He did, in dying, and rising again, then "to sleep" is to be dead from the flesh body. The Greek is a simple language, for it's structure allows one to be more precise. The subject in the frame of this verse is; "that ye not be ignorant as to where the dead are." If you're a Christian, you know and believe that Jesus Christ died, was buried, and on the third day arose and came out of the tomb. If you do not believe this, Paul classifies you as ignorant, and heathen [non-believer].

There are many "raisings to the Lord", because every time someone died, there is a raising for that soul to go to the presence of the Lord. "Resurrect" has several meanings in the Bible, in fact every time you stand up for Jesus, you are "resurrected". It means a new life, whether by death, or by the redemption of your soul to a new life in Christ.

Paul is only talking about "where are the dead"And if you are not ignorant,you would know that they are with the father,and that this flesh shall never ever be used again,period!!!!!

This is once again a blatant denial of the bodily resurrection of the dead on the last Day.. which is the Day of the LORD.. and not only that.. because you believe that every deceased person is ALREADY resurrected, you're a false teacher and even one who overthrows the faith of some.

Simple as that really, and I agree.. I just don't get it.. I don't get why any professing believer would deny the simple truth of the gospel.

n2thelight · May 23, 2014

Old Timer said:
This is once again a blatant denial of the bodily resurrection of the dead on the last Day.. which is the Day of the LORD.. and not only that.. because you believe that every deceased person is ALREADY resurrected, you're a false teacher and even one who overthrows the faith of some.

Simple as that really, and I agree.. I just don't get it.. I don't get why any professing believer would deny the simple truth of the gospel.

I Thessalonians 4:13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope."

I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

The dead have already been resurrected,how else could they come back with Christ....

Old Timer · May 23, 2014

n2thelight said:
I Thessalonians 4:13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope."

I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

The dead have already been resurrected,how else could they come back with Christ....

Because right now the spirits of just men made perfect are there, although not their bodies.. that's going to happen on the last DAY as scripture plainly states.

But then again this has been explained to you at least a dozen times now and it doesn't matter.. so why do you bother to ask?

Old Timer · May 23, 2014

Not to mention the simple fact that the dead in Christ ARE raised first..

NOW, why in the world would they need to be raised first if they were already raised?

It's just another simple question which will go ignored and you'll be asking the same ol questions again soon..

n2thelight · May 23, 2014

Old Timer said:
Because right now the spirits of just men made perfect are there, although not their bodies.. that's going to happen on the last DAY as scripture plainly states.

But then again this has been explained to you at least a dozen times now and it doesn't matter.. so why do you bother to ask?

Because it has been explained to you that we will never ever need these flesh bodies again....You are raised with your new body,the one that lives within you now.......

Anyway wrong thread,so don't worry about it.......

Not to mention the simple fact that the dead in Christ ARE raised first..

NOW, why in the world would they need to be raised first if they were already raised?

It's just another simple question which will go ignored and you'll be asking the same ol questions again soon..

The dead in Christ are already have already risen,period.....All go to be with the Father at death,ask the rich man on the wrong side of the gulf....

If you don't believe those that sleep have already risen,then you don't believe Christ did either.....

Old Timer · May 23, 2014

n2thelight said:
Because it has been explained to you that we will never ever need these flesh bodies again....You are raised with your new body,the one that lives within you now.......

Anyway wrong thread,so don't worry about it.......

I can't speak for you, but I am waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of my body. That's why we are sealed with the HS of promise until the DAY of REDEMPTION.

You simply don't believe it.

The dead in Christ are already have already risen,period.....All go to be with the Father at death,ask the rich man on the wrong side of the gulf....

If you don't believe those that sleep have already risen,then you don't believe Christ did either.....

Well, then WHY are they RAISED first if they're already raised?

Doesn't make any sense...

Interplanner · May 23, 2014

Back to the OP. OT should reread this, to address actual issues about "Israels." Who originally replaced and what did they replace?

Interplanner · May 23, 2014

This is my new post (May 23) from BWs "True Meaning of Rom 9-11". It has so much to do with the real replacement theology issue that I moved it here. (It fascinates me how futurism/D'ism are on an artificial "replacement" issue, even about this.)

A list of misconceptions in OT's post above:
1, that Israel is cut off. But Paul is an illustration that some are still believing and being saved. None of these dealings by God are all-or-nothing as far as ethnos go; only as far as faith vs unbelief goes. Even the blindness is described as partial.
2, The Redeemer has come to Zion. Paul quotes this as historically fulfilled, as being the content of what the subsequent Israel will believe. The passage itself is historical, along with all those about the Servant and what he accomplished. The verb about sins is 'to take away' (remove the guilt of) as used by John the Baptist. The Lamb who takes away sins. This is the same sense of justfication from sins (sin does not stop, but the guilt of it is), of Dan 9's expressions about Messiah, and the letter of Hebrews about 'being made perfect.' (He does not mean actual behavior, but means it in the Levitical sense, fulfilled).
3, the new covenant is for all people. Actually, christ was made to be the covenant. 2 Cor 3-5 is for a mostly Gentile audience, and is the Gospel of forgiveness of sins. God did not effect that covenant only to put a disclaimer on it that it had nothing to do with the nations. "We persuade men" is all mankind, not Jews. The distinction of the state/ethnos of Israel is over, because, as Gal 3 says, it never was there. It was only started when Judaism "replaced" the Gospel, which is the original replacement theology problem, 3:8, 17.
4, rom 11 is the only place where the mystery of Israel's partial blindness is addressed. That's not the same mystery as how Gentiles enter God's new redeemed community as mentioned in Eph 1, 3, Col 1, Rom 16, and how they share in the covenant and the promises. That mystery is only a matter of undoing the layer of Judaism veiling the OT text.
Rom 9-11 is saying Israel has always had that partial blindness because God's dealing never was with the ethnos. That is the original "replacement" that Judaism tried to impose, Gal 3:17. Judaism went the way of race and descendancy; the Gospel was always about faith. That's why the Gospel can explain the question at hand of Rom 9:1--why don't Jews 'automatically' believe? But Judaism has no answer nor the right question. Futurism and D'ism are with Judaism on this.
5, By true Israel, I think you are referring to post 1948 modern Israel. Well, post 1948 Israel's roots go back 100 years; the thinking that drove it is there. Jews in norther Europe who were gaining wealth and saw cracks in the Ottoman empire starting thinking of living in the land again. But more important: they started believing the presence in the land was their destiny. This did not come from the NT, which they were not reading. THis comes from reading the OT in the same veiled, non Gal 3 way that has been mentioned here.
There is very little resemblance to the explosion of the Spirit of God mentioned when Israel is back in its land; Joel 2 is about Pentecost. See the timestamp in the Joel passage. Modern Israel is anachronistically off track in veiled, non Gal 3 theology.

Yes, Jacob is Israel. A distinction between them never factors in any significant discussion of Israel's plight in the NT that I know of.

The original replacement theology

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