The origin of life and evolution

JonFromMinnesota · Jul 6, 2016

Kenny'sID said:
Seriously? You are asking me to disprove your claims? I see.

Evolution is the foundation of biology that has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt thousands upon thousands upon thousands of times. There are several ways that evolution could be falsified. Why do you think it is false?

Ophiolite · Jul 7, 2016

Kenny'sID said:
Oh, please. You guys love that dishonest word don't you? Did you stop for a moment to consider evolution may be an outright lie and you all are spreading that nonsense? Is it your own insecurity that makes you want to see others as dishonest? I mean I don't care really but at the very least, stop that little game you play, it gets old.

Could evolution be an outright lie? Have I ever stopped to consider this possibility?

Yes to both questions. Of course I have considered these. In my youth I considered all sorts of fanciful and solid ideas. I also, over time, developed critical thinking skills and acquired more and more knowledge. That let me to sort the wheat from the chaff, accept certain ideas, reject others and remain unresolved on many.

So, today I can answer, if evolution is an outright lie I can see no evidence for it. I have spoken with dozens of what you would call evolutionists (and listened to scores more) and I detect nothing in their demeanour or words that suggests they were lying. could they be mistaken? I don't rule it out, but they most assuredly are not lying. If we include the written words, then I suppose I have read the words of many hundreds of writers who have expressed their views on evolution and almost none of them gave any hint of lying.

I say almost none, since there are - since they are human - some researchers who fake or manipulate their results, but I don't know of any instance where they were lying about their view of evolution in general. If you do, introduce it to the debate, though its relevance seems questionable.

Summary: the overwhelming majority of scientists who speak of evolution as the mechanism that produced diversity on this planet show no evidence that they were lying.

What of the notion that, nevertheless, we are spreading nonsense? Well, given the vast amount of neatly interlocking evidence for evolution it would be rather silly of me not to accept it as by far the best explanation for what we observe of the diversity of life today and in the past. Even if it turned out that evolution had not occurred, to dismiss this body of evidence and the resultant conclusion as nonsense is to take bombastic rhetoric an exaggeration too far.

As to those who choose to call some assertions made by some creationists, dishonest, well I have some sympathy for them. They seem to have made a choice between questioning a person's integrity or their intellect.

Kenny'sID · Jul 7, 2016

JonFromMinnesota said:
Evolution is the foundation of biology that has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt thousands upon thousands upon thousands of times. There are several ways that evolution could be falsified. Why do you think it is false?

Why false? No, you prove to me it's true. Rewording your double standard, doesn't make it any less what it is.

It has been proven to you, and by what? The science that is said to prove nothing? No, it's proven because you deduce...find it logical to conclude, or you prefer to see it as more logical that it all poofed from nowhere in particular, and then things started evolving from that than the alternative of creation..

While I find it more logical a creator did it because I've never seen "poof" but I have seen "create". Simple

You choose what your findings tell you is true, as will I.

Ophiolite said:
What of the notion that, nevertheless, we are spreading nonsense?

Interesting post, and I don't mean to brush it off, but my whole point with the "lie" comment was to, at the very least, stop tossing around their own canned "dishonest" comment when it's very possible they could be just as, if not much more dishonest with what they claim. Besides these overly repeated little comments by many Atheists, designed to do nothing but demean, true or not, make it look like they are not secure at all with their arguments and they need that extra edge.

Loudmouth · Jul 7, 2016

Kenny'sID said:
So we have to prove what we claim is true and it's not up to you to disprove it,

It isn't up to us to disprove claims that you haven't presented evidence for.

We have presented evidence for evolution: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/

You claimed that those were lies. You need to do more than just call them lies. You need to demonstrate that they are lies.

You do understand that "Liar, Liar, pants on fire" is not a valid counterargument, correct?

But when one has nothing to support their claims I guess the mentioned "dishonesty" junk you keep pushing off on others becomes a necessity for yourselves. Insincerity at it's finest.

Evidence for macroevolution:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/

Nope, just fact, and you are fortunate that's all I indicated possible.

Show us one of our lies. What are we lying about?

"If God" as you say, were the God, there would be no evolution for all you know.

Evidence, please.

You have my take, I made it clear before and I just made it clear again.

Your "take" is nothing more than a bare assertion.

Loudmouth · Jul 7, 2016

Kenny'sID said:
Why false? No, you prove to me it's true. Rewording your double standard, doesn't make it any less what it is.

The evidence is there for you to look at:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/

It has been proven to you, and by what? The science that is said to prove nothing?

It has been proven beyond any reasonable doubt, which is the scientific standard. Or as Stephen Jay Gould puts it:

"Moreover, "fact" does not mean "absolute certainty." The final proofs of logic and mathematics flow deductively from stated premises and achieve certainty only because they are not about the empirical world. Evolutionists make no claim for perpetual truth, though creationists often do (and then attack us for a style of argument that they themselves favor). In science, "fact" can only mean "confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional assent." I suppose that apples might start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in physics classrooms."--Stephen Jay Gould, "Evolution as Fact and Theory"
http://www.stephenjaygould.org/library/gould_fact-and-theory.html

No, it's proven because you deduce...find it logical to conclude, or you prefer to see it as more logical that it all poofed from nowhere in particular, and then things started evolving from that than the alternative of creation..

That is not our position. Perhaps you haven't been reading our posts? All you are doing is building a strawman argument and beating it up. When you are ready to address our actual argument, let us know.

For the record, we think that humans evolved from a primate who was a common ancestor to us and to chimps. A primate species is not nothing.

While I find it more logical a creator did it because I've never seen "poof" but I have seen "create".

That is a logical fallacy. It is known as the God of the Gaps fallacy.

Besides these overly repeated little comments by many Atheists, designed to do nothing but demean, true or not, make it look like they are not secure at all with their arguments and they need that extra edge.

That is known as psychological projection.

Kenny'sID · Jul 7, 2016

Loudmouth said:
You claimed that those were lies. You need to do more than just call them lies. You need to demonstrate that they are lies.

You my friend are a lying. I never once leveled that comment towards anyone. You know as well as I do exactly what took place there, yet you twist my saying not to call other dishonest when you may be teaching lies yourselves as me calling others a liar, which in turn, makes you a liar.

Sorry you are so insecure with what you have to offer here that you need the edge of twisting the truth against those who oppose your view. Get off the smoke and mirrors and back on subject.

Loudmouth · Jul 7, 2016

Kenny'sID said:
You my friend are a lying. I never once leveled that comment towards anyone. You know as well as I do exactly what took place there, yet you twist my saying not to call other dishonest when you may be teaching lies yourselves as me calling others a liar, which in turn, makes you a liar.

Sorry you are so insecure with what you have to offer here that you need the edge of twisting the truth against those who oppose your view. Get off the smoke and mirrors and back on subject.

"Did you stop for a moment to consider evolution may be an outright lie and you all are spreading that nonsense?"--Kenny'sID

Sure looks to me that you were implying that evolution is a lie. Am I wrong?

Kenny'sID · Jul 7, 2016

Loudmouth said:
That is known as psychological projection.

Let's take your biased use of armchair psychology to the next step. The real psychology in that is you calling it that, and only because you are in denial. You aren't presenting a psychological situation, you are using psychology for gain and when you keep repeating that same thing time after time, if gives you away.

Sometimes the Cigar is just that.

Loudmouth · Jul 7, 2016

Kenny'sID said:
Let's take your biased use of armchair psychology to the next step. The real psychology in that is you calling it that, and only because you are in denial.

I am not the one who can't answer this simple question:

What part of the theory of evolution would need to change if God created a very simple replicator that then evolved into all of the species we see today?

I am not the one who has to avoid this evidence:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/

Kenny'sID · Jul 7, 2016

Loudmouth said:
Sure looks to me that you were implying that evolution is a lie. Am I wrong?

Ok, now you've busted it down to implication.

Go ahead, keep trying, you lied, I said what I said and no more. You can embarrass yourself by trying to prove otherwise in order to get out of the mess you got yourself into if you want, but for all our sake, please don't.

Loudmouth · Jul 7, 2016

Kenny'sID said:
Ok, now you've busted it down to implication.

Go ahead, keep trying, you lied, I said what I said and no more. You can embarrass yourself by trying to prove otherwise in order to get out of the mess you got yourself into if you want, but for all our sake, please don't.

Did you mean to imply that evolution was a lie and that we were spreading misinformation? Yes or no?

Kenny'sID · Jul 7, 2016

Loudmouth said:
I am not the one who has to avoid this evidence:

You just aren't paying a attention are you?

Think I'll give you a little me time for yourself, so you can calm down a bit and maybe think a little straighter/pay better attention. Otherwise it's a kind of waste of time for both of us.

Ophiolite · Jul 7, 2016

Kenny'sID said:
Interesting post, and I don't mean to brush it off, but my whole point with the "lie" comment was to, at the very least, stop tossing around their own canned "dishonest" comment when it's very possible they could be just as, if not much more dishonest with what they claim. Besides these overly repeated little comments by many Atheists, designed to do nothing but demean, true or not, make it look like they are not secure at all with their arguments and they need that extra edge.

In order to be honest here I risk offending. That is not my intent and I have endeavoured to phrase this as carefully as possible to minimise that risk while ensuring accuracy.

I suspect that their "dishonest" comments are born out of deep frustration. But I would be guessing as to their motives. I can only speak to my own mind.

I trained as a geologist and so palaeontology and stratigraphy and an ancient Earth were all deeply embedded in the curriculum. When one has seen the palaeontological evidence; has collected relevant fossils in the field; examined samples in the lab; read scores of research papers; listened to lectures by experts; argued with those experts and fellow students over generalities and specifics; when all this is done it is blatantly obvious that evolution is a reality and natural selection with a few addendums, is the best explanation for it.

Then when one learns that zoologists and botanists and microbiologists and ethologists and geneticists and others, using the same scientific principles are reaching the same firm conclusions, it becomes lunacy to consider any alternative.

But, because I have trained as a scientist I pause at that point. Set all that evidence from so many fields, a slice or two of which I have personally validated, aside and recognise that no matter how convincing the data are, no matter how many diverse fields of research point unreservedly towards the conclusion in favour of evolution, it could turn out to be wrong. But that is an objectivity I impose on myself because it is expletive self deleted obvious that evolutionary theory, thought incomplete, is sound.

From that position, when I see others trivialise the arguments, disdain the data, argue black is white and often display immense ignorance on the subject it is very difficult to see an explanation for their behaviour that does not involve self-delusion, or deliberate lying, or plain stupidity.

Perhaps the correct thing to do at that point is to walk away. I am more inclined to repeat the words of Oliver Cromwell - not someone I would normally wish to be associated with - "I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible that you may be mistaken?"

Loudmouth · Jul 7, 2016

Kenny'sID said:
You just aren't paying a attention are you?

Think I'll give you a little me time for yourself, so you can calm down a bit and maybe think a little straighter/pay better attention. Otherwise it's a kind of waste of time for both of us.

You will refuse to discuss anything scientific and will continue to smear the reputation of scientists as an attempt to discredit the evidence. Am I wrong?

bhsmte · Jul 7, 2016

Kenny'sID said:
You just aren't paying a attention are you?

Think I'll give you a little me time for yourself, so you can calm down a bit and maybe think a little straighter/pay better attention. Otherwise it's a kind of waste of time for both of us.

LOL

Kenny'sID · Jul 8, 2016

Loudmouth said:
That about says it all. The only way that creationism can survive is by ignoring the evidence.

Ignoring? didn't you read? I've seen what you call the evidence, so I have not ignored it. See, this is what that "me time" was supposed to be for...to make you, pay attention to what you read, think before you post, hence stop saying things that simply aren't true. When you do those things, it makes any kind of conversation with you rather worthless and a waste of our time.....understand?

Loudmouth said:
You will refuse to discuss anything scientific and will continue to smear the reputation of scientists as an attempt to discredit the evidence. Am I wrong?

We'll cover anything specific you'd like but for now, I think you need a few more days to calm down, otherwise, I'm just afraid you will start lying again or making false accusations, then I have to waste time defending myself from junk that's either interjected for lack of you paying attention or out of frustration because you haven't a leg to stand on here and it'll all end up a non-productive PITA.

Bring your specifics to the table in a couple of days, and I'll be happy to try again with you.

Loudmouth · Jul 8, 2016

Kenny'sID said:
Ignoring? didn't you read? I've seen what you call the evidence, so I have not ignored it.

You have refused to address it, which means you are ignoring it.

We'll cover anything specific you'd like but for now, I think you need a few more days to calm down, otherwise, I'm just afraid you will start lying again or making false accusations, then I have to waste time defending myself from junk that's either interjected for lack of you paying attention or out of frustration because you haven't a leg to stand on here and it'll all end up a non-productive PITA.

Bring your specifics to the table in a couple of days, and I'll be happy to try again with you.

You can address the evidence presented in this thread:

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/the-evidence-for-evolution-for-kennysid-thread.7954348/

Papias · Jul 25, 2016

pat34lee said:
Do you understand what evolution teaches in light of scripture?

Yes. Evolution teaches how God created. If there is a problem in light of how you interpret scripture, then you need to change your human interpretation of scripture.

pat34lee said:
Evolution makes God a liar, and makes Jesus, not only a liar, but
irrelevant.

Just like Genesis 1:14 means that the theory of gravity makes God a liar, and Jesus irrelevant?

Papias

AV1611VET · Jul 25, 2016

Kenny'sID said:
If number 3 is the God of the Bible possibility, then it effects evolution tremendously, because evolution never took place, the God of the Bible created it all.

I'd say no reason to make up such nonsense as evolution in the first place would have a pretty strong affect on evolution...makes perfect sense to me anyway.

Didn't I just go over this with you?

I second this.

Loudmouth · Jul 26, 2016

AV1611VET said:
I second this.

If God created the first simple replicator and all the biodiversity we see today evolved from that single common ancestor, not one word of the theory of evolution would need to be changed.

The origin of life and evolution

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