The Olivet Discourse Cannot Be Divided!

The Lord's discourse is not divided .... and it is all about the time of the end still pending ... and not 70AD

Straightshot said:

The Lord's discourse is not divided .... and it is all about the time of the end still pending ... and not 70AD

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Can you point to any other Christian besides you who believes and teaches that 100% of Matt 24 is Future to us?

The Olivet Discourse can be divided, because Luke divided it.

At least part of the following text from Luke seems to be a reference to the parable of the wheat and tares in Matthew chapter 13.



Mat 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;


Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;


Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.


Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.


Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;


Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.


Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.


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Luk 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Luk 17:22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.

Luk 17:23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.

Luk 17:24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

Luk 17:25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.

Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

Luk 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

Luk 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Luk 17:31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

Luk 17:32 Remember Lot's wife.

Luk 17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

Luk 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

Luk 17:35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Luk 17:36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Luk 17:37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.
We know those taken are destroyed, based on the context.


Division ...............................................................................

We know the following occurred in 70 AD.


Luk 21:5 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,

Luk 21:6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Luk 21:7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

Luk 21:8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.

Luk 21:9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the endisnot by and by.

Luk 21:10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:

Luk 21:11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.

Luk 21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

(The Apostle Paul confirms that he fulfilled this persecution.


Act 22:19 And I said, Lord, they know that I imprisoned and beat in every synagogue them that believed on thee:

Act 22:20 And when the blood of thy martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by, and consenting unto his death, and kept the raiment of them that slew him. )


Luk 21:13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.

Luk 21:14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:

Luk 21:15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.

Luk 21:16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.

Luk 21:17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.

Luk 21:18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.

Luk 21:19 In your patience possess ye your souls.

Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter there into.

Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

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parousia70 said:

Can you point to any other Christian besides you who believes and teaches that 100% of Matt 24 is Future to us?

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100% of the verses quoted of Matthew 24 in the opening post are future.

So are the Luke 17 verses quoted. Which Luke 17 was not the Olivet discourse (did not take place at the Mt. of Olives, but an un-named village verse 12) because the Pharisees spurred Jesus's reply by asking when the Kingdom of God would arrive, which Jesus expanded to the days of his return and the Kingdom of God would become the ruling kingdom over the heathen kingdoms of the world.

My comments


Few of professing Christian expositors can see that the Lord's speaks of a future time still pending as we speak in His discourse about the time of the end .... most do not even know anything about it, do not read it, and those who do have a corrupted interpretation

But it is .... what it is .... about a future time of His coming tribulation and judgment of global proportions upon the world including specific focus upon the nation of Israel at the time of which His early followers were members of

The Lord even expands the forecast to reach this day: the wheat [Revelation 21:1-7] and the tares [20:11-15; 21:8] .... He also includes His millennial kingdom upon the earth just after His forecast of the coming tribulation when He will restore the kingdom to Israel [Matthew 24:29-31; 25:31-46; Luke 21:36] [Acts 1:6-8]

He only breaks His future forecast once to explain the fate of the those who asked the question [Luke 21:12-19] ..... all of the rest of His future view pertains to the time of the end, the time of Jacob's trouble .... the 70th week decreed for the nation still pending [Daniel 9:24-27] .... the"church" of today is not a part of this vision]

He speaks to them about their nation of Israel during the future time of Jacob's trouble, but does not dated the beginning of the same .... something He has not revealed in His prophetic word to anyone .... to this very day [Matthew 25:13; Acts 1:6-8]

He says that the temple and related buildings on the top of the mount would not be standing during the future time that He is projecting .... this is still a fact and will be during the time of Jacob's trouble [not one stone standing] .... those who think that a tribulation temple will be on the mount are wrong .... there will be none [Revelation 11:2] .... the temple on the mount will be this one .... the little horn's pagan temple [2 Thessalonians 2:3-11]

.... and it should be obvious 70 AD was not the time He speaks of .... all of the things taken together that He and His prophets reveal for the future far beyond 70 AD simply did not take place .... in 70 AD

In fact 70 AD is an event that does not even appear anywhere in any of visions of the Lord and His prophets .... all related unfulfilled prophecy at the ending of 69th of the 70 weeks of years Decreed for Israel and the Lord's corresponding cutting off is still pending as we speak

All of these things "taken together" as He describes them are still ahead of us:

[Psalms 2; 83; Isaiah 11; 27:12-13; Jeremiah 30; 31:31-37; Ezekiel 36; 38; 39; 40-48; Daniel 2:40-43; 7:7-25; 8:9-25; 9:24-27; 11:36-45; 12:1-7; Malachi 4; Matthew 24; Luke 21:20-36; Jude 1:14-15; Revelation 6:12-17; 7:1-8; 7:9-17; 8; 9; 10; 11; 12; 13; 14; 15; 16; 17;18; 19; 20; 21]

The preterist has to carve up the prophecies, keep the things they need to prove out their 70 AD dogma, and discard the balance .... this remaining future component is either claimed to be past fulfilled, made into metaphorical mush, or ignored altogether

random person said:

Here is my take:



Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

Luk 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

Luk 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Luk 17:31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

Luk 17:32 Remember Lot's wife.

Luk 17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

Luk 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

Luk 17:35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Luk 17:36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Luk 17:37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.


I believe this whole passage is summarized in Luke's Olivet Discourse in the following verses:

Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter there into.

Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

These are the Jews whom did not believe Christ that stayed in Jerusalem up til the end.

Whereas, the Christians that obey Christ's prophecies in the Olivet Discourse are likened to Lot fleeing Sodom before its destruction, a la Christians will flee Jerusalem before its destruction.

Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

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Read these verses. Jesus told the disciples that his return would not be in their day which included 70 AD

Luke 17
20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.

Doug is correct .... the preterist had better listen rather than continue to with a dogma that is filled with error

Straightshot said:

In fact 70 AD is an event that does not even appear anywhere in any of visions of the Lord and His prophets .... all related unfulfilled prophecy at the ending of 69th of the 70 weeks of years Decreed for Israel and the Lord's corresponding cutting off is still pending as we speak

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So when the disciples asked Christ about the destruction of the temple, He just ignored their question, according to you...



Mat 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

When will what things be? He had just told them the temple was going to be destroyed.

What do you think "these things" were???


And you continue to deny that the following verse was fulfilled in 70 AD, when even John Darby said it was...


Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Those living in Jerusalem during the siege of 70 AD were killed by the edge of the Roman's swords, and thousands of them were taken away as slaves into captivity, and Jerusalem was trodden down by the Gentiles.
At least that is what the history books tell us.

Do you think the history books are all wrong?
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"So when the disciples asked Christ about the destruction of the temple, He just ignored their question, according to you"


Hardly, He answered .... no doubt

And His answer was about the time of the end, not 70 AD as the preterist would insist

If you look at the temple mount in Israel today you will not find one stone of the second temple and related buildings on the mount

.... and there will not be during the coming tribulation period

It makes no difference when or by what means the destruction came .... He simply tells that second temple will not be on the mount at the time of the end .... the time about which they inquired

So why do you keep pestering with this matter, like you do about many things, when an answer has already been give to you by a poster on this forum?

If you think otherwise, then present your case and move on

No need to answer .... I already know why

There would be better ways for you to spend your time .... but maybe you don't have anything else to do

Your appeal to the "history books" rant is bogus .... most intelligent people know what happened in 70 AD .... and yet you are willing to play preterist and attempt to force the Lord's projection of a future time setting into the past

The details "all taken together" of His discourse simply do not fit the historical record of the Roman incursions 70 AD .... not even close

And not only that, but if one incorporates and adds the visions of the Lord's prophets for the same future setting, this completely destroy's the view of the preterist

So the preterists must discount/discard much of what the related prophecies tell and keep only the portion that serves their false dogma

Straightshot said:

There would be better ways for you to spend your time .... but maybe you don't have anything else to do

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I could say the same thing about your promotion of the 2 Peoples/ 2 Purposes/ 2 Kingdoms/ 2 or more Gospels/ Scripture "Rightly Divided" into 2 Parts/ 2 Last Trumpets/ 2 Second Comings of Christ/ 2 or more Resurrections of the Dead/ Daniel 9 "Gap"/ Replacing the One Seed of Galatians 3:16 with the many seeds/ doctrine.

My wife and I have been splitting firewood this morning and I have a little more chainsaw work to do on what is left.

You may think your presentation would go a little better, if there were nobody present who would post the scripture which shows your doctrine to differ from what is plainly written in God's Word.

Thank God, there are others on this forum who can keep an eye on you while I am running the chainsaw.

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I have a 20" Stihl ... so I know about the tool

Here is the deal .... anyone who would use a vision concocted by Margaret Macdonald and her 1830 re-constructionist charismatic tongue speaking church, who was supposedly put in a "trance", to float the Darby/MacDonald ruse constructed by David McPherson is to be suspect

Especially when her vision was obviously one in which she was trying to predict the second coming in her day which would place her church squarely in the tribulation with a resurrection at the end of the same

This behavior of the re-construction "churches" of her day was quite common, with the motive of trying to capture the members by proprietary ambitions .... and to predict the dating of the day of the Lord

Ellen G. White was a contemporary false prophetess who supposedly had visions with her own exclusive "church" [the SDA] going through the coming tribulation .... the dating predictions were also made for the Lord's second advent and related tribulation .... all failed

So McPherson comes along with his disdain for the Lord's promise to keep His true ecclesia from the coming tribulation, and then proceeds to fabricate a story by telling that Darby got his idea of the same from MacDonald's vision

Not only that, but you do the same thing even when the vision in question has the "church" going into the tribulation with a resurrection at the end .... the exact same thing that you believe today with your post-tribulation thinking

What a twist you tell .... totally unbelievable by default

You are no threat to my "presentation" for sure .... and even and enhancer you are

And for you to say that McPherson's hoax is plainly written in God's Word is pure blasphemy

The eye is on you son .... not me

.... and you need to shut you saw off and listen to biblical truth instead of from all of the false teachers that you pawn off on the forum

And unlike you, I am not a bit concerned about my presentation because I do not really care about what others may or may not agree with

Straightshot said:

So McPherson comes along with his disdain for the Lord's promise to keep His true ecclesia from the coming tribulation, and then proceeds to fabricate a story by telling that Darby got his idea of the same from MacDonald's vision

Not only that, but you do the same thing even when the vision in question has the "church" going into the tribulation with a resurrection at the end .... the exact same thing that you believe today with your post-tribulation thinking

What a twist you tell .... totally unbelievable by default

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Don't believe me or Dave MacPherson. Take if from Brethren Historian F.R. Coad, who told the whole story in the 1960's, long before MacPherson published any of his books.
Here it is in black and white, for all to see.

John Nelson Darby's "Secret Rapture" doctrine came from the Irvingites.

On page 24 of the paper you will find the conflict between Brethren leader Benjamin Newton and John Darby, caused by the "Secret Rapture" teaching and the division of scripture into that for the Church and that for Israel.



PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) read pages 10-26

http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418

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I doubt that the "son" comment would be any more realistic than the rest of the 2 Peoples/ 2 Purposes/ 2 Kingdoms/ 2 or more Gospels/ Scripture "Rightly Divided" into 2 Parts/ 2 Last Trumpets/ 2 Second Comings of Christ/ 2 or more Resurrections of the Dead/ Daniel 9 "Gap"/ Replacing the One Seed of Galatians 3:16 with the many seeds fairy tale.



My mother lived with my wife and I for several years, before her death, due to Alzheimers's Disease.
She has been gone over three years now and died at age 92.

So, unless you are about 100 years old, you are not old enough to be my father.
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Wrong again

The Irvingites were of the exegetical historical method of interpretation .... that their "church" was already in the tribulation and were about to experience the persecutions of the "antichrist" .... and that the Lord's coming and their resurrection would not come until the end of the same [anyone can do the research about this truth today .... the info is on the Internet]

This exegetical view does not teach a two stage coming of the Lord, first to resurrect the "church", and then to appear after the tribulation in the first place [However, the prophetic scriptures do]

So to say that Darby or any other person of the day gleaned the pre-tribulation "rapture" teaching from the Irvingites and or MacDonald's vision is somebody's hoax

And there is no evidence that Darby even sourced the Irvingite/MacDonald movement in the first place .... and Darby writes nothing of the same

This concoction of the Darby/MacDonald hoaxing belongs to David McPherson, his faulty research, and his twisted false teaching

.... and you have been hoaxed by the same .... you even hold a one stage second coming just like the Irvingites did

But at the same time, you say that Darby got his two stage return of the Lord from the Irvingites .... did you just make a mistake by neglect and or ignorance of understanding Irvingite doctrine?

You might as well stop you harping on the matter because you are willfully promoting an obvious ruse with no truth .... not one ounce

When people find this out about you, they will not believe any other thing you say .... it is just to large of an issue to hide

Straightshot said:

And there is no evidence that Darby even sourced the Irvingite/MacDonald movement in the first place .... and Darby writes nothing of the same

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Really...

I just provided you with the paper written by the Brethren Historian in the 1960's, which clearly states that the "Secret Rapture" came from the Irvingites and I even gave you the page reference.

Also, the paper written by Pastor Tim Warner contains many of the quotes from former Irvingites who clearly said that the "Secret Rapture" came from the Irvingites.

Neither John Darby, nor his apologists have been willing to admit the true source of the pretrib doctrine.
Edward Irving had gotten himself into some trouble over the deity of Christ and had been labeled as a heretic.
When Irving died in 1834, his group fell apart and it left the door wide open for Darby to assimilate the "Secret Rapture".
It is well known by many scholars that the split between Brethren leader Benjamin Newton and John Darby was over the Irvingite doctrine.
Most Dispensationalists today continue to deny the link.


After looking at the information in Coad's paper, the only way one could come up with your statement above is to be in denial of the historical, written record.

I am not the one who should be worried about people not believing what I say.

It would be my hope that anyone reading these posts compare what I say to the sources or scripture provided and judge the truth for themselves. I want them to assume I may be trying to mislead them.
Healthy skepticism is a good thing when it comes to evaluating any Bible doctrine.



Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf


PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) read pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418

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Straightshot said:

The Lord's discourse is not divided .... and it is all about the time of the end still pending ... and not 70AD

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But wait... didn't some of the folks to whom our Lord was speaking, and whose questions He was asking, really see Jerusalem "compassed about by armies"? Didn't some of them live to see the Temple desecrated and destroyed, and not one stone left standing on another? Didn't many claim to be Christ in that period? Didn't they see war and famine? Did none of that stuff actually happen in the lifetimes of those our Lord was speaking to, just as He told them that they would? Or did they happen, and just "don't count" in your doctrine?

And of course you still have the problem with 70 not following 69, which doesn't present a problem to those of us who believe that numbers worked the same then as they do now, and don't have a spurious doctrine to defend by ignoring or denying history,

Straightshot said:

Doug is correct .... the preterist had better listen rather than continue to with a dogma that is filled with error

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Ah yes, the "error" of believing Scripture and history rather than the fanciful doctrine that y'all have constructed that culminates in the Church of our Lord Jesus Christ being superseded by a restart of Temple Judaism. <Laugh>

BABerean2 said:

Do you think the history books are all wrong?

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This is one of those "don't confuse me with the facts, I done made up my mind" deals. Dispensation Futurism has no basis in Scripture, and openly denies history, but it's their story and they're sticking to it.

Jipsah said:

This is one of those "don't confuse me with the facts, I done made up my mind" deals. Dispensation Futurism has no basis in Scripture, and openly denies history, but it's their story and they're sticking to it.

Click to expand...

Last night, my wife and I were watching the modern version of "The Manchurian Candidate", with Denzel Washington playing a major role.

The brainwashing techniques used in the movie made me think of our conversation here.

Continuing to ignore reality and repeating the scripted narrative, seem to be the same in both cases.
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