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The Official Traditional Churches Breakdown Thread

Albion

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Since others have replied on this thread rather than via a PM, I thought I'd throw in 2 cents more. I like the "Continuing Anglican" section but had a few thoughts about it...

1. The suggestion is made that the churches named are "all generally in North America." This isn't exactly correct. MOST of the MEMBERSHIP is, but the church bodies named are represented in many countries, and some of them have significant memberships.

2. Only three church bodies are named, and while this is reasonable enough, it makes the overall total of followers look miniscule. It's estimated that the total number of Continuing Anglicans is about 30,000 to 50,000, NOT including the Church of England in South Africa which is older than the Continuing Anglican movement but is often counted (as on Wikipedia) as among them. It has a membership of 200,000.

3. Separate mention of ACNA and the Anglican Mission is made, and they are placed under the heading of "Convergence Movement." While these churches do indeed say that they subscribe to Convergence theology, the are no more charismatic than many TEC parishes these days. In every other respect, they should not be included with self-starting denominations like the Charismatic Episcopal Church that states that it is not an Anglican church.

ACNA and AM and several others -- which are usually termed the "Anglican Realignment" movement -- are affiliated with some of the provinces of the Anglican Communion and seek membership in the AC themselves. They claim a membership of about 100,000.

They should, in my opinion, be treated as Anglicans rather than some hybrid and should , therefore, be included in an expanded "Continuing Anglican" section called something like "Continuing Anglican and Anglican Realignment Movements" or "Independent Anglican." Something like that. We do have several members here who belong to ACNA parishes and post fairly often.
 
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Gnarwhal

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Thanks for your help Albion, I'll address some of your suggestions below.


This is why I stated "generally", because I'm trying to keep each profile concise, I didn't want to go through and label each branch of a given church/denomination so I did my best to keep it roughly to the "top three". Since the bulk of their membership exists in North America, that was sufficient to me to state what I did.


Right. I can amend the profile to elaborate on the larger size of the Continuing movement as a whole, but I don't want to go into too much further detail, just for the sake of brevity. I trust readers won't be ill informed by this.


The main reason I excluded the ACNA was that I was unsure whether it was still a part of the Continuing movement, I thought I had heard last year or the year before that they were actually in talks with TEC for reunification. Perhaps that was just hear-say and I was wrong. I'll add the ACNA to the list, since I agree that it's an important body to note and if anyone can confirm that it doesn't belong on that list I'll remove it.
 
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tz620q

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We are in complete agreement. I never meant to hint that the English Church was not ancient and based on that ancient tradition. It is more of an attempt on my part to determine the basis for calling something a traditional church. I just could never see the argument of an independent English church that never was part of the larger universal church. That was clearly the case in 660 and beyond for many centuries. I don't think that the thought then was that there was an invisible, spiritual church that loosely affiliated a group of roughly similar traditions. There was a visible structure and people had no problem identifying that structure. Small incidents of dissent do not negate that.
So I disagree with those who say there was no schism in the 1500's because the English Church had never been part of the Roman Catholic Church. I think I have derailed this thread and for that I am sorry; but I saw an oppurtunity to discuss with some of the most learned Anglicans that I have come across a topic that always had me scratching my head in the midst of an otherwise very reasoned and reasonable community of believers. Thank you all for your responses. May God bless you all.

Byron
 
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Albion

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Thanks for your help Albion, I'll address some of your suggestions below.
And I appreciate you getting back to me, D.B.

I'll respond to your comments below, but I hope not to seem to be carping or or nit-picking. I'm just aspiring, as one who is close to this subject, to help an already good article get some errors straightened out. I understand not wanting to expand it too much, but you do want to get the facts correct, I know.

This is why I stated "generally", because I'm trying to keep each profile concise, I didn't want to go through and label each branch of a given church/denomination so I did my best to keep it roughly to the "top three".
Quite understandable, but if so, the top three would be the Anglican Catholic Church (10,000), the Anglican Province of America (6000)...and the Anglican Province of Christ the King (8000).

Since the bulk of their membership exists in North America, that was sufficient to me to state what I did.
All right.

Right. I can amend the profile to elaborate on the larger size of the Continuing movement as a whole, but I don't want to go into too much further detail, just for the sake of brevity. I trust readers won't be ill informed by this.
The Continuing Anglican part is not so much a concern as what to do with the other Anglicans who, I think, ought to be accounted for.

The main reason I excluded the ACNA was that I was unsure whether it was still a part of the Continuing movement
ACNA has never been--not by any standard--a Continuing Anglican church body. Nor has it ever been considered to be part of the Continuing Anglican movement by itself or by the Continuers.

I thought I had heard last year or the year before that they were actually in talks with TEC for reunification.Perhaps that was just hear-say and I was wrong.
That must have been someone's speculation. They are not in talks.

I'll add the ACNA to the list, since I agree that it's an important body to note and if anyone can confirm that it doesn't belong on that list I'll remove it.

Well, please do not add it to the Continuing Anglican list as though it is a Continuing Anglican church body. It's not.

That's why I made several suggestions for a different title (if you are disinclined to make an additional category for "Anglican Realignment" churches--ACNA and the Anglican Mission). And then, by adding a mention of ACNA (with 100,000 members) as if it were a Continuing Anglican body but then not naming it when the "top three" are listed just muddies the waters further.

It shouldn't take too much to fix these things, and I hope you will do that. Thanks.
 
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FireDragon76

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I really think Baptists and Presbyterians/Church of Scotland/German Reformed are two separate traditions. Its true that John Calvin influenced both (as he did also in the Church of England/Anglican world), but Baptists and Presbyterians have very different theological traditions. John Calvin, for instance accepted, just as Anglicans do, that there were two sacraments of instituted by Christ and necessary for salvation- Baptists do not believe that the Church has any sacraments, only seeing certain actions as ordinances commanded by God.

And I could go on and on about the theological differences between Baptists and the Reformed. Needless to say, a "Reformed Baptist" is Baptist first and "Reformed" is a distinction from other kinds of Baptists, such as those not adhering to a strict predestinarianism.

Baptists also were influenced by the Anabaptist movement that had spread to Holland, and from Holland missionaries took it to England and it merged with the proto-Puritan movement which saw the established church as "not going far enough" and needing purification from "Romish" customs. Both the established church and dissenters had Puritans in their ranks who sough to distance themselves further from Roman practices, but those outside the established church felt that the established church could not accommodate their religious viewpoints. And furthermore, as the Puritan movement grew, it distanced itself further from the ecclesiology and sacramentology of Calvin- only the predestinarian theology was emphasized (very much unlike German and Swiss Reformed churches).
 
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Gnarwhal

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Oh, okay I understand you better now. I'll get to work with the changes.
 
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MKJ

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I wonder if this thread was intended to go into which church was justified in this or that action and which was not?

I really wasn't intending to say anything was or wasn't - just to make it clear that in either case, we are talking about a continually existing institution.
 
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MKJ

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Yes, I think that it would also be important to draw a distinction here.
 
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MKJ

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I think that maybe the feeling you are talking about comes from the fact that in many ways, even though there was an institutional structure, it was actually rather loose and not what you would call authoritarian. The Church in places like England was effectively self-governing in many ways, it had its own traditions and so on.

The world was a bigger place, and there wasn't the kind of administrative structure that would have been required to be more tightly controlled, and I suppose people may well have not seen that to be necessary.

There is a real feeling among many Anglicans that when Rome stamped out many of the native Christian customs and practices and insisted on the Roman ones instead, something rather precious and beautiful was lost, and that overweening sense of the western Church as "Roman" eventually grew into something of a monster, and that is what led to the schism.

I think perhaps that comes close to a sense of restoring an earlier, more correct, kind of independence.
 
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WisdomTree

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Should include "Chalcedonian" for all the groups except for Oriental Orthodoxy. Also, I believe these fellows, the Assyrian Church deserve to be on the list also since they are also very much traditional and ridiculously old. They used to be referred to as Nestorians and to an extent still are, but they actually aren't or more accurately never were (source).

I can write up something for description if need to be.
 
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MoreCoffee

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Good idea.
 
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Gnarwhal

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I'll make the changes. I'll create a separate profile just for the Assyrian Church just because from what I've seen it looks like it's not in communion with the EO, OO or RCC. Correct me if I'm wrong.
 
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WisdomTree

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I'll make the changes. I'll create a separate profile just for the Assyrian Church just because from what I've seen it looks like it's not in communion with the EO, OO or RCC. Correct me if I'm wrong.

That's correct. While the Oriental Orthodox Church had a falling out with the Eastern Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church due to the disagreement of the findings of the Fourth Ecumenical Council of Chalcedon (as well as the Robber Synod Second Council of Ephesus), the Church of the East had a falling out with all of the above due to the disagreement (ie not invited) of the findings of the Third Ecumenical Council of Ephesus.

Now that I think about it, I wonder if the Ancient Church should be included since they are like the Continuing Anglican Movement (CAM) in that they schismed from the Assyrian Church as the CAM schismed from the Anglican Communion (depending on the perspective of course). Speaking of schisms, don't forget these guys, Old Catholic Church (Union of Utrecht)
.
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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To be picky.... Lutherans are generally episcopal in government (to varying degrees) although about one-third of them in the USA are largely congregational (LCMS and WELS). I know of none, anywhere, that are Presbyterian in governance.

Oh, Mark and I are both Lutherans...

But what is STUNNING to me is if ALL THESE GROUPS consider each other "Traditional" here at CF. Do they? IF so, then that's quite a huge admission - that all our differences are all WITHIN historic, traditional, Christianity! I'm exempting myself from an expression of my view on that.... just surprised if THAT is the overwhelming view of the Catholics, Orthodox, Anglican, Lutheran and Reformed members of CF.



Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah




;.
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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To be picky.... Lutherans are generally episcopal in government (to varying degrees) although about one-third of them in the USA are largely congregational (LCMS and WELS). I know of none, anywhere, that are Presbyterian in governance.

Oh, Mark and I are both Lutherans...

But what is STUNNING to me is if ALL THESE GROUPS consider each other "Traditional" here at CF. Do they? IF so, then that's quite a huge statement - that all our distinctive differences are all WITHIN historic, traditional, Christianity! I'm exempting myself from an expression of my view on that.... just surprised if THAT is indeed the universal view of the Catholics, Orthodox, Anglican, Lutheran and Reformed members of CF.



Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah




;.
 
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Gnarwhal

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It's not really about whether our churches affirm the others as traditional, it's more about who's represented here in TT. In the Round Table, we came together under the mutual understanding that Tradition is holy and sacred and we affirm it. How we practice tradition varies, but it does share a common core. The thread is meant to distinguish some basic characteristics between all of the churches represented here, it's not exhaustive nor will it ever be. Mainly it's to act as a tool for visitors or beginners who are unfamiliar with how the churches basically operate.
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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Would you post that common core (beyond the Nicene Creed that is embraced throughout CF).... Just curious....


Thanks!


Pax


- Josiah






.
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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To what end? This isn't a debate thread.

Well, since "we came together under the mutual understanding that Tradition is holy and sacred and we affirm it." isn't it therefore required to know what that Tradition is? I meant no "debate" at all .... only clarification as to exactly what we are coming together around, what exactly is "holy and sacred that we affirm". Would you be so kind as to post or direct me to what that is for me, as one new to this forum?


Thank you!!!


Pax


- Josiah




.
 
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Gnarwhal

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What we're agreeing on is that Tradition itself is holy and sacred. The presence of Tradition in our respective churches is what binds us. This is in juxtaposition to those churches that lack formal tradition like evangelical, charismatic, pentecostal, [most] baptist churches, etc.

The fact that some churches observe seven sacraments while others only observe two or three is not the object of our focus, but rather that we observe Tradition that upholds some semblance of continuity throughout time.
 
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