The Official Traditional Churches Breakdown Thread

[Gnarwhal]

This thread is intended to offer a summary of basic information pertaining to the various Traditional churches that are represented here in Traditional Theology. Largely because we may be lacking in our own understanding, and also because we want lurkers and new members to be properly informed. This list is far from complete, as I know that I don’t have a full understanding of each and every church that is represented here. I hope we can all participate in rounding out this list and making sure the information is accurate. I’m not a member of any of these traditions (yet) so I’m certainly not an authority by any measure, and I hope that each person can offer their expertise on their respective tradition. I’ll essentially start with a basic framework and we can all build from there.

Please message me or a moderator if information is inaccurate, inappropriate or somehow incongruent with Traditional Theology’s standards. Thanks!

In some loose alphabetical order:

1. Anglican Communion
Affiliations most commonly represented on CF: Church of England, The Episcopal Church of the United States, Anglican Church of Canada.
Polity: Episcopal.
Primate: Justin Welby (CoE), Katherine Schori (TEC), Fred Hiltz (ACoC)
Approximate national/global membership: 80 million (global).
Acknowledged creeds: Apostles’ Creed, Chalcedonian Creed and Nicene Creed.
General date of establishment: First century CE, 1538 (separation from Rome).

Synopsis: Generally thought of as having been established circa 1538 when Henry VIII severed England’s ties with Rome over doctrinal and ecclesiastical disputes. Furthermore, high-church and low-church don't automatically mean "Anglo-Catholic" or "Evangelical" respectively. In Anglicanism, there is a sort of double axis: one of churchship and one of theological emphasis. In terms of churchship, there is high church, broad church, and low church. These have to do with liturgical style. The higher the church, the more ceremonial and elaborate. The lower the church, the more "just by the strict rubrics" of the Book of Common Prayer. In terms of theological emphasis, there is Anglo-Catholicism, Middle, and Open Evangelicalism. Anglo-Catholics emphasize the Catholicity of the Church and Open-Evangelicals emphasize the protestant nature of the Church. However, either of these theological emphases reject the vital importance of the other "half". It is also important to note that Open Evangelicals are not the same as Protestant Evangelicals, adhering to the ancient tradition of a three-fold ministry, Real Presence of Christ, baptismal regeneration, and sacramental theology being of great importance, including the acceptance of the normative requirement of Holy Baptism and Holy Communion for salvation. In addition, there are two theologies which are outside the bounds: Anglo-Papism (or Anglo-Papalism, as it is sometimes called or spelled) and Crypto-Calvinism (or Crypto-Presbyterianism), which are extreme versions that reject the protestant nature or Catholicity of the Church respectfully and don't have any valid claim of being Anglican, being essentially Roman Catholic or Reformed/Presbyterian in substance and Anglican in name only ("AINO").

Primary contributions credited to: PaladinValer

2. Assyrian Church of the East
Affiliations commonly represented on CF: N/A
Polity: Episcopal
Primate: Catholicos-Patriarch of the Assyrian Church of the East. Incumbent: Mar Dinkha IV Khanania
Approximate national/global membership: 400-500,000
Acknowledged creeds: Nicene Creed
General date of establishment: First century AD

Synopsis: One of the ancient churches, the Assyrian Church of the East is sometimes mistakenly considered part of the Oriental Orthodox Church, however it is not in communion with it, nor is it in communion with the Eastern Orthodox Church or the Roman Catholic Church. The Assyrian Church, also sometimes called the Nestorian Church based on it's acceptance of Nestorianism is the root cause of their decline to accept the Chalcedonian Creed. Consisting of nearly a half million members worldwide, the church originally began in the regions of Assyria and northwestern Persia (made up of modern day Iraq, southeast Turkey, northeast Syria, and northwest Iran).

3. Catholic Church
Affiliations most commonly represented on CF: Latin Rite, Eastern Rites (generally referred to simply as Catholic or Roman Catholic)
Polity: Episcopal
Primate: Bishop of Rome (the Pope). Incumbent: Francis (Jorge Mario Bergoglio)
Approximate national/global membership: 1.2 billion (global)
Acknowledged creeds: Apostles, Nicene, Athanasian, Chalcedonian
General date of establishment: First century AD

Synopsis: The Catholic Church can trace it’s origins to Christ and the Apostles in the first century. In 431 AD following the Council of Ephesus the Catholic Church ceased communion with oriental miaphysite churches. In 451 AD following the council of Chalcedon the Catholic Church ceased communion with the Assyrian church. In 1054 AD following many cultural, religious, and political incidents the Catholic Church ceased communion with the Orthodox Church. The largest single body of Christianity in the world, Catholicism has a large following on every continent with the exception of Antarctica.

Primary contributions credited to: MoreCoffee

4. Continuing Anglicanism
Affiliations most commonly represented on CF: Anglican Catholic Church, Anglican Church in America, Anglican Province of America, Anglican Province of Christ the King.
Polity: Episcopal
Primate: May vary depending on branch.
Approximate national/global membership: 10,000 (ACC), 8,000 (APCK), 6,000 (APA) - all generally in North America
Acknowledged Creeds: Apostle’s Creed, Nicene Creed, Chalcedonian Creed
General date of establishment: 1977 (ACC & APCK), 1991 (ACA), 1995 (APA)

Synopsis: Largely due to social and ecclesiastical disagreements, the Continuing Anglican movement dates back to approximately 1977 where at the Congress of St. Louis the members rejected the ordination of women and the changes made to the latest version of the Book of Common Prayer. Many continuing bodies prefer the 1928 version (or sometimes older) over the newer version that the Anglican Communion utilizes. Each branch generally operates in the same way as the Anglican Communion both with polity and primacy. Like the Anglican Communion itself, some expressions of Continuing Anglicanism are more evangelical while others are more catholic, and many fall in the middle.

It should be noted that the population numbers given do not accurately reflect the breadth of the Continuing Anglican movement, as these figures are both estimations and include primarily members in North America. However, the Continuing movement exists in significant numbers worldwide but as of this latest edit (6 February 2015) concrete numbers haven't been acquired.

Primary contributions credited to: Albion

5. Eastern Orthodoxy
Affiliations most commonly represented on CF: Largely all autocephalous churches (primarily Greek, Russian, OCA and Antiochian).
Polity: Episcopal
Primate: Each autocephalous church has it’s own patriarch, recognized as equal with his counterparts from the other churches; the Ecumenical Patriarch is considered a “first among equals”.
Approximate national/global membership: approximately 225-300 million (global)
Acknowledged creeds: Nicene, Chalcedonian
General date of establishment: First century CE

Synopsis: The Eastern Orthodox Church is one of the oldest expressions of Christianity tracing it’s origins back to Christ and the Apostles. With a rich tradition that has largely remained unchanged in 2,000 years Orthodoxy generally practices the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, less frequently the Liturgy of St. Basil and on rare occasions, the Liturgy of St. James. The church was one until 1054CE when the East and West separated over doctrinal and ecclesiastical differences.

6. Lutheranism
Affiliations most commonly represented on CF: Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod, Lutheran Church in Canada, Lutheran Church-Canada
Polity: Generally either Congregational or Presbyterian
Primate: None
Approximate national/global membership: 72.3 million (global)
Acknowledged creeds: Apostles, Nicene, Athanasian, Chalcedonian
General date of establishment: Early 16th century CE

Synopsis: Stemming from the controversy over Martin Luther’s Ninety-Five Theses, and credited as the foundation of the Protestant Reformation, Lutheranism came to be circa 1517-1530 when a segment severed ties with Rome over doctrinal and ecclesiastical disputes. While apostolic succession is not generally emphasized, Lutheranism maintains a catholicity in theology and praxis consistent with the ancient traditions and fathers.

7. Oriental Orthodoxy
Affiliations most commonly represented on CF: Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria, Syriac Orthodox Church of Antioch, Armenian Apostolic Church, Eritrean Orthodox Church.
Polity: Episcopal
Primate: One Patriarch per church; Coptic Pope of Alexandria "first among equals" (Incumbent: Theodore II).
Approximate national/global membership: 86 million (global)
Affirmed Creeds: Apostle's Creed, Nicene Creed
General date of establishment: Fifth Century CE

Synopsis: Stemming from theological disputes at the Council of Chalcedon, the Oriental Orthodox Church resembles Eastern Orthodoxy in many ways in practice and doctrine.

8. Reformed Tradition
Affiliations most commonly represented on CF: Presbyterian Church (PCUSA and PCA), Reformed, UCC, Reformed Baptist
Polity: connectional, with councils of elders at congregational, regional and national levels, except UCC and Reformed Baptist which are congregational
[calling it Presbyterian is sort of biased]
Primate: None
Approximate national/global membership: Presbyterian: ca. 367,000 (PCA), 1.7 million (PCUSA); Reformed: ca. 148,000 (RCA), 145,000 (CRCNA); Congregational, merged church with Reformed as one group: 1.1 million (UCC) [Reformed Baptist don’t seem to be a specific denomination]
Acknowledged creeds: Apostles’ Creed, Chalcedonian Creed, Nicene Creed, Athanasian Creed (RCA), Apostles’ Creed and Nicene Creed (PCA), Nicene Creed (PCUSA)
Presbyterian: Westminster, PCUSA adds Confession of 1967 and Brief Statement of the Reformed Faith and other 16th Cent confessions; Continental Reformed: Heidelberg Catechism, Belgic Confession, Canons of Dordt; RCA adds Belhar; Reformed Baptist: Savoy Declaration, 1689 Confession, plus general Reformed and Presbyterian confessions
General date of establishment: Differed - 16th Century (Reformed tradition), 1983 (PCUSA), 1973 (PCA), 1628/1754 (RCA)

Synopsis: Originating from the theological thought of John Calvin, and to a lesser extent Huldrych Zwingli, the Reformed tradition largely took hold in northern Europe, Scotland, and England, where Reformed Churches and Presbyterianism flourished. While often having central government in the form of councils, Reformed traditions generally do not have any sort of primate or head figure. Congregational churches tend to have an emphasis on the local church and leaving them largely autonomous while Presbyterian and Continental Reformed churches are based on accountability of the local church to regional and national councils.

Primary contributions credited to: hedrick

 

[PaladinValer]

The Anglican Communion acknowledges the Definition of Chalcedon.

The Archbishop of Canterbury is not the "Primate" of the entire Anglican Communion; just the Church of England. However, the Archbishop of Canterbury is considered primus inter pares, "first among equals" of all 38 Primates, and is one of the Four Instruments of Unity (the others being the Lambeth Conference, the Primates' Meeting, and the Anglican Consultative Council).

Furthermore, high-church and low-church don't automatically mean "Anglo-Catholic" or "Evangelical" respectively. In Anglicanism, there is a sort of double axis: one of churchship and one of theological emphasis. In terms of churchship, there is high church, broad church, and low church. These have to do with liturgical style. The higher the church, the more ceremonial and elaborate. The lower the church, the more "just by the strict rubrics" of the Book of Common Prayer. In terms of theological emphasis, there is Anglo-Catholicism, Middle, and Open Evangelicalism. Anglo-Catholics emphasize the Catholicity of the Church and Open-Evangelicals emphasize the protestant nature of the Church. However, either of these theological emphases reject the vital importance of the other "half". It is also important to note that Open Evangelicals are not the same as Protestant Evangelicals, adhering to the ancient tradition of a three-fold ministry, Real Presence of Christ, baptismal regeneration, and sacramental theology being of great importance, including the acceptance of the normative requirement of Holy Baptism and Holy Communion for salvation. In addition, there are two theologies which are outside the bounds: Anglo-Papism (or Anglo-Papalism, as it is sometimes called or spelled) and Crypto-Calvinism (or Crypto-Presbyterianism), which are extreme versions that reject the protestant nature or Catholicity of the Church respectfully and don't have any valid claim of being Anglican, being essentially Roman Catholic or Reformed/Presbyterian in substance and Anglican in name only ("AINO").

Furthermore, the Anglican Church did not quite "reunite" with Rome as so many argue under Mary I. While on the surface it may have seen to have, in reality, a large number kept true to Anglicanism underground, only to resurface upon the passing of Mary I and Cardinal and Archbishop Pole.

Finally, many Lutheran groups are episcopal in polity or have an augmented form of it. These include, but may not necessarily be limited to, those Lutheran bodies in which we Anglicans are in Full Communion with.

 

[Rhamiel]

lol I want to be a pest

you said this

Anglo-Papism (or Anglo-Papalism, as it is sometimes called or spelled) and Crypto-Calvinism (or Crypto-Presbyterianism), which are extreme versions that reject the protestant nature or Catholicity of the Church respectfully and don't have any valid claim of being Anglican,

if being in communion with the Bishop of Rome makes it so they do not have a "valid claim" to the Anglican title, you should amend the date of establishment from

General date of establishment: First century CE, 1538 (separation from Rome).

to this

General date of establishment: 1538 (separation from Rome).

 

[hedrick]

5. Reformed Tradition
Affiliations most commonly represented on CF: Presbyterian Church (PCUSA and PCA), Reformed, UCC, Reformed Baptist
Polity: connectional, with councils of elders at congregational, regional and national levels, except UCC and Reformed Baptist which are congregational
[calling it Presbyterian is sort of biased]
Primate: None
Approximate national/global membership: Presbyterian: ca. 367,000 (PCA), 1.7 million (PCUSA); Reformed: ca. 148,000 (RCA), 145,000 (CRCNA); Congregational, merged church with Reformed as one group: 1.1 million (UCC) [Reformed Baptist don’t seem to be a specific denomination]
Acknowledged creeds: Apostles’ Creed, Nicene Creed, Athanasian Creed (RCA), Apostles’ Creed and Nicene Creed (PCA), Nicene Creed (PCUSA)
[While various churches do use these creeds, the distinctive authorities are actually the confessions; I'm not sure it's worth figuring out which of Apostles, Nicene and Athanasian each denomination uses. E.g. PCUSA uses Apostles as well]
Presbyterian: Westminster, PCUSA adds Confession of 1967 and Brief Statement of the Reformed Faith and other 16th Cent confessions; Continental Reformed: Heidelberg Catechism, Belgic Confession, Canons of Dordt; RCA adds Belhar; Reformed Baptist: Savoy Declaration, 1689 Confession, plus general Reformed and Presbyterian confessions
General date of establishment: Differed - 16th Century (Reformed tradition), 1983 (PCUSA), 1973 (PCA), 1628/1754 (RCA)
[1983 may be misleading. The PCUSA is substantially continuous with the PCUS, going back to the 1860's]

Synopsis: Originating from the theological thought of John Calvin, and to a lesser extent Huldrych Zwingli, the Reformed tradition largely took hold in northern Europe, Scotland, and England, where Reformed Churches and Presbyterianism flourished. While often having central government in the form of councils, Reformed traditions generally do not have any sort of primate or head figure. Congregational churches tend to have an emphasis on the local church and leaving them largely autonomous while Presbyterian and Continental Reformed churches are based on accountability of the local church to regional and national councils.

-----------

You have listed only US denominations. Should we included Canada? All English-speaking? World?

 

[topcare]

6. Convergence Movement
Affiliations most commonly represented on CF: Charismatic Episcopal Church
Polity: Episcopal
Primate: Varies depending on branch.
Approximate national/global membership: not known by me
Acknowledged Creeds: Apostle’s Creed, Nicene Creed


Synopsis:
In 1992 A. Randolph Adler and a group of like-minded charismatic church pastors from the western U.S. formed the Charismatic Episcopal Church. They obtained ordination in apostolic succession and began worshiping liturgically using the 1979 Book of Common Prayer, but developing the liturgy over time to mirror characteristics of the liturgy from the Roman Missal. The Charismatic Episcopal Church grew to become an international body known for its blending of sacramental, charismatic, and evangelical worship traditions.


Other worldwide Convergence Communions include the Communion of Evangelical Episcopal Churches (CEEC), led by its primate, the Most Reverend Dr. Charles Travis and the Christian Communion International (CCI), led by its Presiding Bishop, the Most Reverend Quintin Moore. These communions are interrelated, the Christian Communion International being a constituent member of the Communion of Evangelical Episcopal Churches. They are Evangelical, Sacramental and Pentecostal in piety and practice and use different authorized liturgies in worship. While women are ordained to both the diaconate and the priesthood, they do not admit women to the episcopate.


The Anglican Mission in the Americas (AMiA) and the Anglican Church in North America (ACNA) are churches that are connected to various provinces of the Anglican Communion but are also explicitly committed to Convergence theology. Both of them have women priests but no women bishops.
The Lutheran Catholic Communion (LCC) formed in the year 2008 ordains women up to deaconess, and males only to the offices of priest and bishop.


The Communion of the Convergence Anglican Church (CCAC) was formed in 2013 and is a convergence church (sacramental, evangelical, and Spirit-filled). They do not ordain women to any of the Offices of Deacon, Priest or Bishop. They are using the 1979 Book of Common Prayer as their Provisional Prayerbook. Other liturgies may be used with the permission of the Bishop.


The Holy Christian Orthodox Church (HCOC) originally the Western Rite Orthodox Catholic Church is a predominately African-American Communion of Charismatic Orthodox Churches. Led by Archbishop Timothy Paul


The Christian Orthodox Church of America (COCOA) led by its Metropolitan Archbishop, Mar Gregory Schell (Archbishop Paul Gregory Schell) headquartered in Denver, CO.


---------------------------------


My Church may have all three streams Charismatic, Evangelical, and Sacramental. I would view myself as high church

 

[PaladinValer]

lol I want to be a pest

you said this


if being in communion with the Bishop of Rome makes it so they do not have a "valid claim" to the Anglican title, you should amend the date of establishment from


to this

Except the Magna Carta specifically mentions the Anglican Church by name, not to mention the fact that the Council of Whitby wouldn't have been even necessary if Christianity was present already in the British Isles, which was apart from Rome since its founding.

 

[GoingByzantine]

For Catholicism, "Eastern Rites" would be more accurate than Eastern Rite. As of right now, the Byzantine Rite is the only Eastern Catholic Rite represented here via Anhelyna and myself. We both belong to the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church.

Likewise we don't like to be called Roman Catholic, "Catholic" is fine...

 

[MoreCoffee]

This thread is intended to offer a summary of basic information pertaining to the various Traditional churches that are represented here in Traditional Theology. Largely because we may be lacking in our own understanding, and also because we want lurkers and new members to be properly informed. This list is far from complete, as I know that I don’t have a full understanding of each and every church that is represented here. I hope we can all participate in rounding out this list and making sure the information is accurate. I’m not a member of any of these traditions (yet) so I’m certainly not an authority by any measure, and I hope that each person can offer their expertise on their respective tradition. I’ll essentially start with a basic framework and we can all build from there.

Please message me or a moderator if information is inaccurate, inappropriate or somehow incongruent with Traditional Theology’s standards. Thanks!

In some loose alphabetical order:
...

6. Catholic Church
Affiliations most commonly represented on CF: Latin Rite, Eastern Rites (generally referred to simply as Catholic or Roman Catholic)
Polity: Episcopal
Primate: Bishop of Rome (the Pope). Incumbent: Francis (Jorge Mario Bergoglio)
Approximate national/global membership: 1.2 billion (global)
Acknowledged creeds: Apostles, Nicene, Athanasian
General date of establishment: First century AD

Synopsis: The Catholic Church can trace it’s origins to Christ and the Apostles in the first century. In 431 AD following the Council of Ephesus the Catholic Church ceased communion with oriental miaphysite churches. In 451 AD following the council of Chalcedon the Catholic Church ceased communion with the Assyrian church. In 1054 AD following many cultural, religious, and political incidents the Catholic Church ceased communion with the Orthodox Church. The largest single body of Christianity in the world, Catholicism has a large following on every continent with the exception of Antarctica.

I made some changes to the entry for Catholicism. Because the Catholic Church includes a Roman rite and more than 20 rites that are mainly of East Roman Empire origin it is conventional to refer to the Church as the Catholic Church since all but the Roman rite are not "Roman". I also included the splits of 431 & 451 AD because 431, 451, and 1054 were divisions arising between churches that subscribe to holy Tradition. It may be useful to include 1521 AD and 1534 AD as marking the divisions between the Catholic Church and the Evangelical Church and the Anglican Church respectively.

 

[GoingByzantine]

For Oriental Orthodox, "Church of Armenia" should be replaced with the "Armenian Apostolic Church".

 

[graceandpeace]

How should the forum define "traditional church?" I realize one of the stickies provides a loose definition.

I think it's great you put this info together, but I'm not sure making it a permanent thread/sticky as a resource is a good idea. Maybe I'm just being disagreeable, but it seems the list could be endless without a strict definition in how the forum defines "traditional church" - & of course there would need to be consensus on what's accurate info for each tradition.

It might be better to create a simple comparison chart. There is already a decent website or two floating around that attempts to serve that purpose.

 

[tz620q]

Except the Magna Carta specifically mentions the Anglican Church by name, not to mention the fact that the Council of Whitby wouldn't have been even necessary if Christianity was present already in the British Isles, which was apart from Rome since its founding.

PaladinVader, I respect your opinion and your intellect and this is not meant as a slight in any way; but I've never really been able to grasp that argument. Saying that there is an English Christian church (or Anglo-Saxon church or whatever the nomenclature used in the Magna Carta) and somehow correlating that to the modern day Anglican church would require you to look at the beliefs of both churches to see if there is continuity in belief between the two. Then you would have to somehow plot a viable historical timeline that showed that this belief system never died out but was held by at least a small group during all times to show continuity and not some sort of Restoration movement. I think this argument fails on both counts.

Would it not be more historically accurate to leave the Synod of Whitby in the same group of events as were happening thoughout the Roman Empire at the time, just another local Synod to settle the date of Easter within that region? Otherwise we equate dissent with division. And truthfully in regards to the Synod of Whitby, dissent based on what? The debate was supposed to be centered around the Ionian monastery's practices of celebrating Easter and the Roman practices; but the Irish monks that had founded the Ionian monastery had changed to the Roman practice 30 years prior to the Synod. Bishop Colman argued the Ionian side stating that the most Holy Columba that had founded their monastery had celebrated Easter using the Ionian tables. The Roman side argued that Easter was universially celebrated on the Roman date and Northumbria should get in step. The decision was for the Roman side. Those who view the Northumbrian side as somehow representing all England, much less all Great Britain, have to ignore that much of Britain already celebrated the Roman date and posit a unified England that did not exist at this time.

 

[PaladinValer]

PaladinVader,

PaladinValer. There is no "d".

I respect your opinion and your intellect and this is not meant as a slight in any way; but I've never really been able to grasp that argument. Saying that there is an English Christian church (or Anglo-Saxon church or whatever the nomenclature used in the Magna Carta) and somehow correlating that to the modern day Anglican church would require you to look at the beliefs of both churches to see if there is continuity in belief between the two.

That's an invalid argument. If a person changes their belief, do they become an entirely different person? No.

Religious bodies have and do change their beliefs or practices. They don't become something entirely new each time they do.

Then you would have to somehow plot a viable historical timeline that showed that this belief system never died out but was held by at least a small group during all times to show continuity and not some sort of Restoration movement. I think this argument fails on both counts.

I think some research on what the Restorationist movement is, because it is being misapplied.

Would it not be more historically accurate to leave the Synod of Whitby in the same group of events as were happening thoughout the Roman Empire at the time, just another local Synod to settle the date of Easter within that region?

It was more than that, and it misses my actual point. Can that point be addressed please?

Otherwise we equate dissent with division. And truthfully in regards to the Synod of Whitby, dissent based on what? The debate was supposed to be centered around the Ionian monastery's practices of celebrating Easter and the Roman practices; but the Irish monks that had founded the Ionian monastery had changed to the Roman practice 30 years prior to the Synod. Bishop Colman argued the Ionian side stating that the most Holy Columba that had founded their monastery had celebrated Easter using the Ionian tables. The Roman side argued that Easter was universially celebrated on the Roman date and Northumbria should get in step. The decision was for the Roman side. Those who view the Northumbrian side as somehow representing all England, much less all Great Britain, have to ignore that much of Britain already celebrated the Roman date and posit a unified England that did not exist at this time.

This is a Straw Man reply. Can my actual argument please be addressed please? Thanks.

 

[Liberasit]

or whatever the nomenclature used in the Magna Carta)

Ecclesia Anglicana Libera Sit

 

[tz620q]

Ecclesia Anglicana Libera Sit

An interesting quote "That the English Church shall be free". The context of course makes it clear that the freedom is from government oppression and not from Roman Papal rule. I am learning a lot from researching this. Thank you.

 

[tz620q]

PaladinValer. There is no "d".

I'm sorry, I didn't look close enough.

That's an invalid argument. If a person changes their belief, do they become an entirely different person? No.

Religious bodies have and do change their beliefs or practices. They don't become something entirely new each time they do.

Isn't the very definition of a traditional church one that retains what is handed down. Religious bodies are defined by their beliefs, unlike people's essence. If you change the belief system too much in a religious body, I would contend that they are indeed a different religion.

I think some research on what the Restorationist movement is, because it is being misapplied.

My argument is that their must be historic continuity between this proto-English church and today's Anglican church or else you have had one die out and another church centuries later try to at best imitate the proto-English church. That is why I refered to the Restorationist movement, because that is the argument that they used, that one could resurrect the 1st century church by trying to act like the 1st century church.

It was more than that, and it misses my actual point. Can that point be addressed please?

PaladinValer, As I said, I have always enjoyed reading your posts and agreed with nearly everything. I truly don't want to start a debate. Maybe I missed your original point. I took it that you meant that the Synod of Whitby represented the moment when an Independent English Church in 660 was placed under the power of the Pope to become a vassal of a Roman church, quite unwillingly. I have never been able to see that viewpoint looking at the history of that time. Please clarify your point and maybe I can see more clearly what you are getting at.

 

[PaladinValer]

I'm sorry, I didn't look close enough.

Appreciated.

Isn't the very definition of a traditional church one that retains what is handed down.

But that's not a reply to the argument given.

Religious bodies are defined by their beliefs, unlike people's essence. If you change the belief system too much in a religious body, I would contend that they are indeed a different religion.

Again, if an individual loses an arm and a leg, are they now an entirely different person? Is someone who enters into a coma a whole new being? No to both.

Furthermore, since my church has not radically changed doctrine, then your argument still doesn't work. Still hold to the basics and more of the Apostolic faith.

My argument is that their must be historic continuity between this proto-English church and today's Anglican church or else you have had one die out and another church centuries later try to at best imitate the proto-English church.

Except that isn't so.

That is why I refered to the Restorationist movement, because that is the argument that they used, that one could resurrect the 1st century church by trying to act like the 1st century church.

I think some major research on what they actually believe needs to be done, because that's a major disservice, as well as a big bit of academic dishonesty, to compare Anglicanism with that movement.

PaladinValer, As I said, I have always enjoyed reading your posts and agreed with nearly everything. I truly don't want to start a debate. Maybe I missed your original point. I took it that you meant that the Synod of Whitby represented the moment when an Independent English Church in 660 was placed under the power of the Pope to become a vassal of a Roman church, quite unwillingly.

We were never under the direct authority of the Pope. The Synod at Whitby wasn't about direct authority but about other things.

I have never been able to see that viewpoint looking at the history of that time. Please clarify your point and maybe I can see more clearly what you are getting at.

It isn't anyone's viewpoint, it is history, and as someone who has a professional education in that subject, I wouldn't have become a member of my church if the history were different.

 

[MKJ]

PaladinVader, I respect your opinion and your intellect and this is not meant as a slight in any way; but I've never really been able to grasp that argument. Saying that there is an English Christian church (or Anglo-Saxon church or whatever the nomenclature used in the Magna Carta) and somehow correlating that to the modern day Anglican church would require you to look at the beliefs of both churches to see if there is continuity in belief between the two. Then you would have to somehow plot a viable historical timeline that showed that this belief system never died out but was held by at least a small group during all times to show continuity and not some sort of Restoration movement. I think this argument fails on both counts.

Would it not be more historically accurate to leave the Synod of Whitby in the same group of events as were happening thoughout the Roman Empire at the time, just another local Synod to settle the date of Easter within that region? Otherwise we equate dissent with division. And truthfully in regards to the Synod of Whitby, dissent based on what? The debate was supposed to be centered around the Ionian monastery's practices of celebrating Easter and the Roman practices; but the Irish monks that had founded the Ionian monastery had changed to the Roman practice 30 years prior to the Synod. Bishop Colman argued the Ionian side stating that the most Holy Columba that had founded their monastery had celebrated Easter using the Ionian tables. The Roman side argued that Easter was universially celebrated on the Roman date and Northumbria should get in step. The decision was for the Roman side. Those who view the Northumbrian side as somehow representing all England, much less all Great Britain, have to ignore that much of Britain already celebrated the Roman date and posit a unified England that did not exist at this time.

No, I don't think you need to say that the beliefs are identical. If you did, we certainly could not say that the modern Catholic Church was the same as the ancient one - there have been changes and developments, some quite significant ones.

I think what you have to see is some kind of continuous existence as an institution, as well as some kind of existence of a coherent tradition.

I would say, even if you think the Church of England has gone off the rails, it is clearly an organization of that sort. It may I think to be less clear to people outside of the UK, where it may seem like simply another denominational offering.

But it is pretty clear that historically, we are talking about one organization, the Christian Church in England.

I actually do not buy the argument that it was somehow a totally independent Church which had no need to acknowledge the western patriarch, and frankly I don't know how anyone can claim that. It was clearly the decision at Whitby that they acknowledged the bishop of Rome as their patriarch, he was the only patriarch of the west, ever, and England never had its own any more than France or Finland did.

So I would say there really was a schism rather than an assertion of an independence that already existed, though I think it was a justified schism. But, even were it an unjustified schism, or in serious error, it would really still have been the Church in England.

But it was still, quite clearly, the same organization, that Church as it existed in England. the same ecclesiastical structure for the most part, buildings, customs. It was really a national Church. There really wasn't even a strong concept in those days of the possibility of independent churches - they weren't really conceptualized in quite that way.

 

[Albion]

Very well said, MKJ.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I wonder if this thread was intended to go into which church was justified in this or that action and which was not?

 

[Gnarwhal]

I wonder if this thread was intended to go into which church was justified in this or that action and which was not?

No, I just wanted to provide a basic outline of information for each of the churches that are represented here in Traditional Theology. I believe Mark agreed to sticky it so anybody, especially new believers or new members of the forum, could access that information and be just slightly better educated on the communities we're all in dialogue with together. Ideally each profile of information would only contain a few lines, if the content is too long people lose interest after the first sentence. If they want to know more they can always do their own research but I just wanted to put together a concise description of each.

I didn't want to get into anything extraordinarily technical in here, or anything that could potentially be subjective rather than objectively factual.

So far everyone's done a good job (for the most part) keeping their information within the boundaries of their own traditions and not trying to teach what a denomination other than their own believes. Hopefully that keeps up.