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The Not Listening Excuse...

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DD2008

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:wave:

I have noticed that the "You're not listening" excuse is used frequently by people on all sides of debate here at GT when someone doesn't change their mind on a point of view after all persuading points in their arsenal have been used.

That is an invalid argument. It assumes that you think that the only way someone could possibly disagree with you is if they simply weren't listening, that they just don't understand your point of view, but if they listened to you they certainly would because their is no way you could be wrong. What if the reason they disagree with you is because you don't have a compelling argument to support your position? Maybe after everything you can show them they still are not persuaded and have valid points against your position? Maybe they embraced and argued for your position at one point and were persuaded against it because they honestly found problems with it they couldn't honestly reconcile? Can you reconcile those same problems with a compelling conclusive case, or not?

I think it is best to give others the benefit of the doubt that they do in fact understand your position and have found compelling reasons not to embrace it. The you're not listening excuse doesn't cut it. There is no reason for anyone to even be here if they aren't reading posts and considering the statements made in them. So we should give others the benefit of the doubt that they are in fact listening and ask them specifically why they reject a point we would think is irrefutable, instead of calling them uneducated or think headed or tell them they are simply not listening.

:)
 

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Thekla

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Listening is not just about agreement ^_^

sometimes, it is just about understanding the content of what is said; in this manner, respect is shown and one is left with a clearer sense of what is the core of the disagreement.

Listening is respectful, efficient, and hopefully fruitful.
Whether or not listening results in agreement, it has the benefit of allowing us to learn something !
 
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christianmomof3

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Interesting. I found this while looking for "not listening" images:
http://jonreid.blogs.com/oneanother/2007/12/listening-as-a.html

Listening as a spiritual act

not-listening.jpg
I am beginning to emerge from my hiatus. I finished reading Jim & Casper Go to Church and am continuing where I left off in Soul Graffiti, where I read the following:
I believe part of our society's frustration with organized religion stems from a lack of discourse and question-asking. The one-way communication from pastor or priest to congregants that is so prevalent maintains awe, authority, and distance, but does not invite fully engaged participation, ownership, or collective action. If our goal is generative loving activity, rather than mere indoctrination, then candid dialogue must be encouraged. We need casual cooperative contexts in which we can ask questions and navigate how to live and travel well together. Perhaps this is one of the reasons why early followers of the Way so often ate together in their homes and met from house to house.

Some may respond, "Ah-ha, then what we need to do is promote conversation!" which is not a bad idea. But if it's contrived or controlled, I'm not sure that it's a conversation. The hallmark of conversation is listening. How can you tell when listening is taking place?

At a surface level, listening happens when I allow you to change the course of the conversation. (Thanks to Kay for this one.) Let me use a negative illustration to show what I mean: I say something. Then you say something. If what I say next is the same regardless of what you said, was I listening? We have all done it, and had it done to us. I wasn't really listening; I was taking a breath to prepare what I would say next.
But now let's stretch it further: What if I give some kind of response to what you said, but then I get back on my original track, which I had planned out in advance? I'm not saying this is a bad thing one should never do. It's called teaching. But it is not listening, so please don't call it a conversation.
At a deeper level, listening happens when I allow you to change me. Again, a negative illustration: I say something. Then you say something. I acknowledge what you said, and even use it later to illustrate my point. But if I am not changed in some way by what you said, was I listening? We often fulfill Colbert's roast of President Bush: "He believes the same thing Wednesday that he believed on Monday, no matter what happened Tuesday."
Bear with me, but I want to take this beyond an exchange of words. If you enter my sphere of life for a short time, but that interaction does not shape my life even subtly, then I am not listening. It's like the interaction never took place, because I wasn't changed. You know the saying, "If a tree falls in a forest…" If we exchange words but are no different for it, was it an interaction? Here, the movie Waking Life says it better than I can:
I believe that listening is a daring, spiritual act. Do you like people-watching? Yesterday at the mall, while trying to let the crowds flow by me, I paused to observe individuals, each living their own life, and I tried to imagine who they were. Listening is the act of acknowledging another person's life. It is recognizing that someone's words and body language are not isolated data, but are a reflection of a lifetime of experiences. Listening is recognizing that hey, there are other people here, too.
How does this "I allow you to change me" stuff work when you and I disagree about something? I think deep listening requires the humility to ask myself, "What if I am wrong?" Even when we agree, it is easy to have the conceit that our agreement means you see things exactly as I do, which is simply not true. If disagreement builds humility in us, agreement requires us to use that same humility. And humility is, perhaps, the most important spiritual practice of all. (Thank you, Dave Jacobs.) God is often portrayed as grandiose and controlling, so it may seem odd to consider the Master as the most humble of all:
Don’t be selfish; don’t try to impress others. Be humble, thinking of others as better than yourselves. Don’t look out only for your own interests, but take an interest in others, too. You must have the same attitude that Christ Jesus had. — Philippians 2:3-5
Humility is so central to the Way of Jesus that he made it a strong emphasis at the Last Supper. (Quick aside: another reference to the importance of shared meals, hmm.) If we embrace listening as a spiritual practice, we will learn humility, becoming more like the Master, and thus becoming more like God.

OK, it's time for some exercises!
  • Observe yourself during conversations. When the other person is talking, are you listening, or are you thinking about what you will say next?
  • Break out of "ant auto-pilot". The next time you are buying something and the cashier says, "How are you today," can you turn the programmed ritual into a conversation? Ask for their opinion about something, even something random. When they say, "Thank you and have a good day," don't reply, "Thanks, you too," as you look at your receipt. Instead, look them in the eyes, thank them by name, and give them a blessing.
  • The next time you have a disagreement, ask yourself, "What if they are right?" Even with something you think is flat-out wrong, say a quick prayer: "Master, show me the grain of truth in what they are saying."
  • When somebody agrees with you, remind yourself that they see the world through their own experiences, for their own purposes. Does that deflate your pride somewhat?
  • Practice listening to strangers, acquaintances, colleagues, friends, and family. Try it at home, at work, at school, on the street. Where is it easier or harder? With whom is it easier or harder?
  • Invite yourself to someone's home for a meal. Invite others to your home. Listen, and let these moments change you.
 
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&Abel

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:wave:

I have noticed that the "You're not listening" excuse is used frequently by people on all sides of debate here at GT when someone doesn't change their mind on a point of view after all persuading points in their arsenal have been used.

That is an invalid argument. It assumes that you think that the only way someone could possibly disagree with you is if they simply weren't listening, that they just don't understand your point of view, but if they listened to you they certainly would because their is no way you could be wrong. What if the reason they disagree with you is because you don't have a compelling argument to support your position? Maybe after everything you can show them they still are not persuaded and have valid points against your position? Maybe they embraced and argued for your position at one point and were persuaded against it because they honestly found problems with it they couldn't honestly reconcile? Can you reconcile those same problems with a compelling conclusive case, or not?

I think it is best to give others the benefit of the doubt that they do in fact understand your position and have found compelling reasons not to embrace it. The you're not listening excuse doesn't cut it. There is no reason for anyone to even be here if they aren't reading posts and considering the statements made in them. So we should give others the benefit of the doubt that they are in fact listening and ask them specifically why they reject a point we would think is irrefutable, instead of calling them uneducated or think headed or tell them they are simply not listening.

:)

I'll admit I don't read all posts(especially really long winded, going nowhere interesting posts)

but if I am proven wrong or something is presented to me I can't refute immediately I take it seriously and challenge my point of view while asking god to reveal the truth

I would rather be wrong then believe a lie
 
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&Abel

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to me theres an excitement in revealing or finding truth

and when things start to feel dead, redundant or like I'm not getting through to people I tend to get somewhat dysphoric and uninterested

OR when I start feeling scatter brained and unable to properly express my thoughts

I'm a weird creature
 
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DD2008

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Interesting. I found this while looking for "not listening" images:
http://jonreid.blogs.com/oneanother/2007/12/listening-as-a.html

Listening as a spiritual act

not-listening.jpg
I am beginning to emerge from my hiatus. I finished reading Jim & Casper Go to Church and am continuing where I left off in Soul Graffiti, where I read the following:
I believe part of our society's frustration with organized religion stems from a lack of discourse and question-asking. The one-way communication from pastor or priest to congregants that is so prevalent maintains awe, authority, and distance, but does not invite fully engaged participation, ownership, or collective action. If our goal is generative loving activity, rather than mere indoctrination, then candid dialogue must be encouraged. We need casual cooperative contexts in which we can ask questions and navigate how to live and travel well together. Perhaps this is one of the reasons why early followers of the Way so often ate together in their homes and met from house to house.

Some may respond, "Ah-ha, then what we need to do is promote conversation!" which is not a bad idea. But if it's contrived or controlled, I'm not sure that it's a conversation. The hallmark of conversation is listening. How can you tell when listening is taking place?

At a surface level, listening happens when I allow you to change the course of the conversation. (Thanks to Kay for this one.) Let me use a negative illustration to show what I mean: I say something. Then you say something. If what I say next is the same regardless of what you said, was I listening? We have all done it, and had it done to us. I wasn't really listening; I was taking a breath to prepare what I would say next.
But now let's stretch it further: What if I give some kind of response to what you said, but then I get back on my original track, which I had planned out in advance? I'm not saying this is a bad thing one should never do. It's called teaching. But it is not listening, so please don't call it a conversation.
At a deeper level, listening happens when I allow you to change me. Again, a negative illustration: I say something. Then you say something. I acknowledge what you said, and even use it later to illustrate my point. But if I am not changed in some way by what you said, was I listening? We often fulfill Colbert's roast of President Bush: "He believes the same thing Wednesday that he believed on Monday, no matter what happened Tuesday."
Bear with me, but I want to take this beyond an exchange of words. If you enter my sphere of life for a short time, but that interaction does not shape my life even subtly, then I am not listening. It's like the interaction never took place, because I wasn't changed. You know the saying, "If a tree falls in a forest…" If we exchange words but are no different for it, was it an interaction? Here, the movie Waking Life says it better than I can:
I believe that listening is a daring, spiritual act. Do you like people-watching? Yesterday at the mall, while trying to let the crowds flow by me, I paused to observe individuals, each living their own life, and I tried to imagine who they were. Listening is the act of acknowledging another person's life. It is recognizing that someone's words and body language are not isolated data, but are a reflection of a lifetime of experiences. Listening is recognizing that hey, there are other people here, too.
How does this "I allow you to change me" stuff work when you and I disagree about something? I think deep listening requires the humility to ask myself, "What if I am wrong?" Even when we agree, it is easy to have the conceit that our agreement means you see things exactly as I do, which is simply not true. If disagreement builds humility in us, agreement requires us to use that same humility. And humility is, perhaps, the most important spiritual practice of all. (Thank you, Dave Jacobs.) God is often portrayed as grandiose and controlling, so it may seem odd to consider the Master as the most humble of all:
Don’t be selfish; don’t try to impress others. Be humble, thinking of others as better than yourselves. Don’t look out only for your own interests, but take an interest in others, too. You must have the same attitude that Christ Jesus had. — Philippians 2:3-5
Humility is so central to the Way of Jesus that he made it a strong emphasis at the Last Supper. (Quick aside: another reference to the importance of shared meals, hmm.) If we embrace listening as a spiritual practice, we will learn humility, becoming more like the Master, and thus becoming more like God.


OK, it's time for some exercises!
  • Observe yourself during conversations. When the other person is talking, are you listening, or are you thinking about what you will say next?
  • Break out of "ant auto-pilot". The next time you are buying something and the cashier says, "How are you today," can you turn the programmed ritual into a conversation? Ask for their opinion about something, even something random. When they say, "Thank you and have a good day," don't reply, "Thanks, you too," as you look at your receipt. Instead, look them in the eyes, thank them by name, and give them a blessing.
  • The next time you have a disagreement, ask yourself, "What if they are right?" Even with something you think is flat-out wrong, say a quick prayer: "Master, show me the grain of truth in what they are saying."
  • When somebody agrees with you, remind yourself that they see the world through their own experiences, for their own purposes. Does that deflate your pride somewhat?
  • Practice listening to strangers, acquaintances, colleagues, friends, and family. Try it at home, at work, at school, on the street. Where is it easier or harder? With whom is it easier or harder?
  • Invite yourself to someone's home for a meal. Invite others to your home. Listen, and let these moments change you.


That was a good post. I listened to it. :D
 
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DD2008

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I'll admit I don't read all posts(especially really long winded, going nowhere interesting posts)

but if I am proven wrong or something is presented to me I can't refute immediately I take it seriously and challenge my point of view while asking god to reveal the truth

I would rather be wrong then believe a lie


Outstanding. I feel the same way. It's best to be honest before God.
 
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&Abel

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I do plenty of reading and some responding but I also have a tendency to get lost and forget where I've been. ^_^

This is a big site. ;)

ya me too

one of these days I'm gonna start using the subscribe function

creature of habit as well :D
 
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DD2008

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Listening is not just about agreement ^_^

sometimes, it is just about understanding the content of what is said; in this manner, respect is shown and one is left with a clearer sense of what is the core of the disagreement.

Listening is respectful, efficient, and hopefully fruitful.
Whether or not listening results in agreement, it has the benefit of allowing us to learn something !

I agree. However it is possible to listen intently and not learn anything new. Like listening to a favorite record. It sounds the same everytime you hear it.
 
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Thekla

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I agree. However it is possible to listen intently and not learn anything new. Like listening to a favorite record. It sounds the same everytime you hear it.

Actually, I like to listen "deeper" on each listen - picking out a particular line as it threads through the composition - and on relistening, that previous deepened listening gives a richer hearing.

(I like music :sorry:)
 
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DD2008

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Actually, I like to listen "deeper" on each listen - picking out a particular line as it threads through the composition - and on relistening, that previous deepened listening gives a richer hearing.

(I like music :sorry:)

Me too. I'm listening to music right now using Windows media player. ^_^
 
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Musa80

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Actually, I like to listen "deeper" on each listen - picking out a particular line as it threads through the composition - and on relistening, that previous deepened listening gives a richer hearing.

(I like music :sorry:)

Yup me too. We should get a thread going about music. I had a great conversation with the wife last night about Immigrant Song by Led Zeppelin. Appears to me to capture a lot of the history from the Viking raids on Europe during the dark ages and the re-emergence of the Church in the aftermath.
 
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DD2008

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Yup me too. We should get a thread going about music. I had a great conversation with the wife last night about Immigrant Song by Led Zeppelin. Appears to me to capture a lot of the history from the Viking raids on Europe during the dark ages and the re-emergence of the Church in the aftermath.


I'm a big 70's rock fan. Zeppelin is awsome.
 
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