The Non Christian Views of Paul?

Lord Emsworth · Nov 2, 2008

LittleLambofJesus said:
Howdy. Well the Jews were/are expecting Someone to come to them......I would say it was JESUS or my Faith is in Vain....

I would say that is an argument from adverse consequences.

ahmid said:
Perhaps it was G*d who revealed his truths to the writers, from the prophets to John and Paul. Did you think of that? Perhaps there is a connection...did you think of that?

Does "God" (or G*d as you put it) exist? Is there "[divine] revelation?" "Prophecy?"

[X] Yes
[X] No
[X] Maybe
[X] The questions are meaningless.
[X] Define "God," "revelation," "prophecy"
[X] other
[X] and something else entirely.

So, yes, I thought of that. And, no, I didn't think of that. And ... and ... and ...

On a more serious note, maybe it was space aliens? Have you thought of that? Or Iggy the magic elf? Have you thought of that? Or ... you know ... something that totally surpasses your thougts? Have you thought of that???

ahmid said:
Christian apologetics does a near job of explaining things

([Christian] apologetics is a load of [wash my mouth] [wash my mouth] [wash my mouth] [wash my mouth] [wash my mouth] [wash my mouth]. )

ahmid said:
but a belief in Jesus opens the 'floodgates of heaven' so that things hidden become clear.

'Even as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my thoughts higher than your thoughts.'

Yeah.

(And please, the forum software has a feature called "signature" AKA "sig line." Use it.)

ahmid · Nov 3, 2008

Jane_the_Bane said:
Well, the authors of the gospels certainly tried to make it look that way. But again, is that so very difficult when you can basically write the gospel with a copy of the "prophecies" right next to you? (ACTUAL prophecies, not Christian revisionist readings of OT passages that were in no way connected to the messianic prophecies.)

Why do you think do two gospels bother to trace Jesus's lineage to the house of David (although they can barely agree on a the names or the number of generations in that genealogy)? Why do you think do they bother to explain why and how a guy from NAZARETH was supposedly born in Bethlehem? Why does one of them bother to explain that the family went to Egypt?
And why are the intervening years missing? Because they are irrelevant to the prophecies. It all started out with what was known of Jesus's ministry; the whole infancy stuff was quite obviously tagged on to "fulfill" a prophecy or another. I don't even think that it was deliberate fraud. It went more along the lines of: "Jesus WAS the messiah. The messiah was to be born in Bethlehem. So Jesus WAS born in Bethlehem, even if we know that his family lived in Nazareth."

Your claim is that the gospel writers had a copy of 'prophecies' in front of them when they penned the gospels. Your basis is on a few prophecies such as his birth in Bethlehem where Luke spent three chapters describing? It is not that easy. Prophecies were fulfilled that the writers seemed to have overlooked because they did not mention them directly or only one or two lines are devoted to them. Yeah. They are true prophecies that the writers did not detail fully because they did not see it.

1- Mathew 21:9, the Jews sing to Jesus 'blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord' as he enters Jerusalem, which is the song of Psalm 118:22-29. The context and prophecy is found in the Psalm; the gospel writers fail to mention this part of the song 'bind the sacrifice to the horns of the altar' which is a prophecy of the cross; only Jesus knew it referred to him as he heard the song. How do you explain this oversight by the gospel writers?

2- Lets use the same scene; 6 days before Passover, Jesus enters Jerusalem and the temple court thru the East gate while on the same day (as per known priestly duties), the Jews brought in 'lambs without blemish' through the North gate in preparation for passover. Clearly Jesus is the lamb. Co-incidence? Why did the gospel writers not mention such a prophetic and powerfully symbolic scene?

If what you suggest is true that the writers concentrated on events that demonstrated prophecies, such as Jesus' birth in Bethlehem; why did they not spend time on these prophecies? They did not see them. However they are prophecies just as important as Jesus' birth in Bethlehem. I only mentioned Mathew 21:9. I could keep going with many more examples. Jesus completed OT prophecies to the letter, and then some.
-------------------------------------------------
Even as Paul thru Jesus Christ convinced idol worshiping infidels in the first century; likewise do I move about Breaking the Sword of Islam. For the true G*d so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, so that whosoever believes in Him, should not perish but have everlasting life. I will love G*d and my neighbor. By Jesus Christ, all evil is bound from hindering. --- Ahmid Truth

G*d thru Jesus Christ bless Zakaria Botros - today he is reaching up to 50 million Muslims in the middle east through televised evangelism via satellite. Reportedly hundreds a week are turning to Christ and abandoning Islam... Hallelujah. 3lotus.com
Help Stop Islam! ...over 12,000 selfish attacks since 9/11 ... Islam Killshttp://christianforums.com/showthre...////////////////////////////////lpost49020070

LittleLambofJesus · Nov 3, 2008

Originally Posted by Jane_the_Bane

Well, the authors of the gospels certainly tried to make it look that way. But again, is that so very difficult when you can basically write the gospel with a copy of the "prophecies" right next to you? (ACTUAL prophecies, not Christian revisionist readings of OT passages that were in no way connected to the messianic prophecies.).................
.........All it takes to write the book of Revelation is a copy of the Septuagint, a proper grounding in Greek philosophy, a gift for metaphor and some pen, ink and parchment.

Greetings JtB? Which prophecies do you view as Messianic? I know there is some confusiong between Jews and Christ-ians on Psalms 22:6] Peace.

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7249302
Psalm 22:16 Translation.

Phil 3:2 Beware of-the dogs, beware of-the evil workers, beware of-the circumcision! [Psalm 22:16]
3 For we-are the circumcision, ones to Spirit of God worship/, boasting in Christ Jesus, and not in flesh having confidence.

Revelation 22:15 Without the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the whoremongers, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and every one who is loving and is doing a falsehood .

anatolian · Nov 3, 2008

vajradhara said:
Namaste Anatolian,

thank you for the post.

you didn't have a category for me so i didn't vote.

in my view Paul is a Fifth Column.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_column

metta,

~v

Salam vajradhara.A fifth column of christianity, jews or rome?

yaqovzadeek · Nov 3, 2008

Secundulus said:
What proof does anyone have that Paul did not actually have a real vision. The truth is that you don't have any proof. The only thing you have is your base assumption that Christianity with its resurrection and everything else cannot really be true.

All of your scholarship follows from that assumption. Can a scholarly conclusion that is biased by its assumptions be considered definitive? I think not. It is simply one possible explanation. It is not fact.

the proof is in the pudding, read the three contrasting stories on ho how the witnesses saw nothing but heard a noise and how the saw a light but heard nothing and also in another version he mentions nothing of the witnesses.This type of testimony will never stand up in any court of law.Only in christianity
peace
yaqovzadeek
aka james the just

anatolian · Nov 3, 2008

peaceful soul said:
Before you begin, you should consider why didn't the other Apostles/Disciples refute his teachings on Jesus. Why don't you see them condemning his teachings? Why don't they discount Him as an Apostle? Answer that first before you continue.

Salam soul.Firstly this is an open discussion thread so I posted a neutral OP.I just wanted to learn simply what I asked in the title.

But I have some possible answers to your question also..For example because those were eliminated from a possible NT by the Pauline christians? You know, the history is written by the victorians.

LittleLambofJesus · Nov 3, 2008

anatolian said:
Salam soul.Firstly this is an open discussion thread so I posted a neutral OP.I just wanted to learn simply what I asked in the title.

But I have some possible answers to your question also..For example because those were eliminated from a possible NT by the Pauline christians? You know, the history is written by the victorians.

What the heck is a "Pauline Christ-ian"?

Matthew 24:3 He is yet sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples toward-came to Him according to own, saying, `Tell us, when shall these-things be? and what the Sign of the Thy ParousiaV <3952>, and of the together-finish/sun-teleiaV <4930> of the Age?' [Daniel 12/Revelation 19]

1 Thessalonians 3:13 Into the stand-fast of ye, the hearts blameless in together-holiness before the God and Father of us in the Parousia <3952> of the Lord of us, Jesus Christ, with all of the holy-ones of Him [Zech 14:5/Revelation 19:11.]

anatolian · Nov 3, 2008

LittleLambofJesus said:
What the heck is a "Pauline Christ-ian"?

Ehm, this is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pauline_Christianity

Chesterton · Nov 3, 2008

LittleLambofJesus said:
What the heck is a "Pauline Christ-ian"?

Exactly. A "non-Pauline Christian" would be a contradiction.

anatolian said:
You know, the history is written by the victorians.

No, history's not written by the victors, it's read by the victors.

vajradhara · Nov 3, 2008

Namaste Anatolian,

thank you for the post.

anatolian said:
Salam vajradhara.A fifth column of christianity, jews or rome?

that's a good question as Saul was certainly Roman and acted as a Roman official in the area. he claims that he studied with a certain Rabbi however he does not indicate that he was Jewish. ipso facto, Saul was a Roman Fifth Column in Christianity.

if you've not had a chance to read our essay regarding this subject i would strongly encourage you to do so. search for the Pauline Conspiracy and you'll find it on the interfaith dot org website. it's fairly long and involved so please make sure you've got some time.

metta,

~v

RobinRedbreast · Nov 3, 2008

Mod Had On

Ok guys, here's the deal:

This thread is being left open in good faith.
A clean-up has taken place. No, I did not PM every single one of you to tell you your thread was deleted in a clean-up. But I also did not report and notice each and every one of you for the rules you violated. Consider yourself lucky because frankly, there were quite a few questionable instances. But in the interest of trying to get the OP's topic back up and running, I'm cleaning everything up in one swoop here and giving it back to you.
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Philothei · Nov 4, 2008

anatolian said:
Once there was a thread about The Non Christian Views of Jesus.Now I would like to learn what non-christian people who have some knowledge about Christianitythink about St.Paul.(since many of the non-christians of this board were in Christianity some while or more)

Do you think he was just the 13th disciple and there is a co-existence with his teaching and the theaching of Jesus (according to Bible) as christians say.Or was he another man?

There are some both Isamic and non-Islamic opinions about him being a self prophet of Christianity who added his own philosophy to the religon.

oh...yeah and what is the purpose of that question?

Trying to find some more ways to "slander" the Christian message or discredit it? Me thinks it is pretty obvious...

Philothei · Nov 4, 2008

Named Saul at his birth in the city of Tarsus, the holy apostle was a son of the tribe of Benjamin. Saul became a Pharisee under Gamaliel, one of the chief Jewish Rabbis (Masters/Teachers) of the day. After his study under the great Rabbi, Saul became one of the chief persecutors of Christians. Present at the stoning of St Stephen (Acts 7: 58), Saul later found himself blinded by Jesus Himself on the road to Damascus (Acts 9:1-22). Sought out by the Apostle Ananias, Saul immediately repented and Ananias baptized him. Saul, soon after his conversion called Paul, was later named and numbered among the Apostles. The extent of Paul's preaching as he spread the Gospel went far and wide from Arabia to Spain, to both Jews and Gentiles. He was called the "Apostle to the Gentiles." Paul spent his new life in suffering and labor for Christ, establishing and organizing churches everywhere. He reached such a state of perfection that he was able to say to the Church at Galatia: "not I, but Christ lives in me" (Galatians 2:20). Like the Apostle Barnabas, Paul studied under Gamaliel.
The account of Paul's missionary journeys and the letters he wrote to the Churches he founded form an important part of the New Testament. St. Paul was martyred with the Apostle Peter under Nero by beheading.

From the Orthodox wikki

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Apostle_Paul

LittleLambofJesus · Nov 4, 2008

Philothei said:
From the Orthodox wikki

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Apostle_Paul

Greetings. I don't think the Muslims doubt Paul existed but they claim he was a liar, deceiver/false Apostle to the Judean/Israelites and Gentiles JESUS sent him to......that would also put their Prophet a notch up from Jesus.......

John 7:1 And was walking, the Jesus, after these in the Galilee for not He willed in the Judea to be walking, that the Judeans sought Him to kill.

Acts 23:14 Who-any toward coming to the Chief-priests and to the Elders say "to-anathema we anathematize ourselves of no yet nothing to taste till of which we may be killing the Paul."

http://www.bismikaallahuma.org/archives/2005/paul-of-tarsus-the-false-apostle-according-to-islam/

..........So what do the early Muslim theologians say about Paul? The reality is that the early Muslims theologians recognised that Paul was the corrupter of the religion we know today as "Christianity". We hence would like to sum up the position of Paul in Islam with the words of the eminent Shaykhul-Islaam Ibn Taymiyyah (d. 728H), that.......

http://www.answering-christianity.com/umar/paul_of_tarsus.htm

Paul of Tarsus: The False Apostle According to Islam

Druweid · Nov 4, 2008

Philothei said:
oh...yeah and what is the purpose of that question?

Trying to find some more ways to "slander" the Christian message or discredit it? Me thinks it is pretty obvious...

Oh come now, that's not entirely fair, is it? The purpose of this forum is to help Christians gain a better understanding of non-Christians in order to be better informed on how to minister to them, no? To be honest, the Pauline epistles do have some bearing as to why I do not choose Christianity for myself. But then, I choose not to discuss such things in depth with anyone other than those I know well. For me, it is sufficient to gain some understanding as to how Christians reconcile certain apparent conflicts and disparities within the aforementioned texts.

Respectfully,
-- Druweid

Philothei · Nov 4, 2008

My point Dru is that they know very well who Paul was from the Bible. But if you do not "accept" it and try to rationalize every single bit of it...then you do end up in "slander" since like Secundulus mentioned Paul was in the company of other Apostles and communicated with others...Why then single him out? oh...yeah...it becomes an easier target does he? Bottomline Paul lived a life of evangelization and preached the kerygma of Christ, and also died a martyr to his call. That in itself makes him a legitemate follower of Christ. Period.

Philothei · Nov 4, 2008

And what are your reservation about Paul? If I may ask...

Philothei · Nov 4, 2008

Like I have said before in this Forum...each apostle is different as each one of us are different. You understand Christianity in a different way than me (for sure...lol...) and so does a baptist or a catholic... We are not all apostles of Christ? Sure we are. But Christ does not "put us one dress" fits all... We are all sharing the same kerygma but each of us undertands it differntly. I do not think that even people in the same parish community have the same understanding about the Christian message.....oy...

LittleLambofJesus · Nov 4, 2008

Druweid said:
Oh come now, that's not entirely fair, is it? The purpose of this forum is to help Christians gain a better understanding of non-Christians in order to be better informed on how to minister to them, no? To be honest, the Pauline epistles do have some bearing as to why I do not choose Christianity for myself. But then, I choose not to discuss such things in depth with anyone other than those I know well. For me, it is sufficient to gain some understanding as to how Christians reconcile certain apparent conflicts and disparities within the aforementioned texts.

Respectfully,
-- Druweid

Greetings. The Muslims appear to have done that with their Koran as according to their Prophet and Book, the Koran erases all the errors and contradictions found in the Jewish/Christian Bible...

Without Paul the rest of the NT/NC simply becomes a book for the OC Jews who still await on a Messiah that will never come to them except thru the Spirit and the Faith of their Messiah/Savior, Jesus.......

Acts 13:45 Being bold yet the Paul and the Barnabas said "to ye it was necessary first to be spoken the Word of the God. Since ye are thrusting away it/him and not worthy judging yourselves of the age-abiding life Behold! we are turning into the Nations".

Reve 14:11 And the smoke of the tormenting of them into ages of ages is ascending, and not they are having rest day and night

Philothei · Nov 4, 2008

Further more here we see that everyone is needed in the ministry... And we Christians are like the body of Christ and we are all needed and need each other. St. Paul gave us great insight indeed in the Christian message. He knew that not everyone had the same gifts as he also admited to his "weaknesses".... as we all have them. Here he gives a sense of what he considered the Chrisitan Church to be...having solidarity in faith by be in communion with one another.

14Now the body is not made up of one part but of many. 15If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. 16And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. 17If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? 18But in fact God has arranged the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. 19If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20As it is, there are many parts, but one body.
21The eye cannot say to the hand, "I don't need you!" And the head cannot say to the feet, "I don't need you!" 22On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, 24while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has combined the members of the body and has given greater honor to the parts that lacked it, 25so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. 26If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it. 27Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues[d]? Do all interpret? 31But eagerly desire[e] the greater gifts.
And now I will show you the most excellent way.

The Non Christian Views of Paul?

Who was Paul?

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