The New Perspective on Paul!

[davidoffinland]

I wondering if anybody has heard about the "New Perspective"? This is studying Apostle Paul within 1st CT Judaism as opposed to post-christian and Reformation theology. Such writers such as Tom Wright, Bishop in Durham and James Dunn and a few others.

What they are trying to do is put Paul in the historical context of 1st CT Judaism and all the religious dynamics that were involved during that time. Plus, including the influences from within and without on Judaism at that time.

Has anybody read or heard about this?

From Finland,
David.

 

[muffler dragon]

I have not, but you'll get a better audience by bringing this topic up in the general MJ forum and not the debates.

m.d.

 

[ShirChadash]

Hello, David. Some books that are often recommend by MJ's here on Rav Shaul are

Tim Hegg's book "The Letter Writer"
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1892124165/qid=1095462150/sr=ka-1/ref=pd_ka_1/002-9739483-5961623


and Brad H. Young's "Paul, the Jewish Theologian"
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1565632486/qid=1095462201/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-9739483-5961623?v=glance&s=books

Shalom!

~Z~

 

[koilias]

Shalom David!

Paul is getting a thorough rethink in scholastic circles generally...thankfully, even protestant evangelicals are finally coming around to seeing Paul in his Jewish context.

The person who has turned Pauline scholarship on its head is Mark D. Nanos who wrote these seminal works, The Mystery of Romans, The Irony of Galatians and The Galatians Debate. The higher-critical scholastic world is sharpening their polemics around these controversial but insightful books.

 

[ShirChadash]

Shalom Koilias!

DH and I have been considering Nanos' books for a "next-time" purchase. They look interesting.

 

[koilias]

Shalom Zemmy!

Yes, they are worthy reads...albeit too much on the scholarly side for most. I still haven't tackled the Galatians books (besides what I've read in reviews) but my serious Paul-scholar friends certainly taut it!

Nanos has completely challenged the view that Jews and Christians were at odds in the first century. Sociologically, there is no evidence for a split, and Paul was certainly not encouraging one!! The insight and evidence he compiled has made all the scholars turn their heads, to say the least. Until very recently, scholars have had a poor grasp of Diaspora culture and gentile-Jewish relationships (because they hold recent archaeological findings as insubstantial), as well as a good grasp on Paul's argumentative rhetoric, but evidence is slowly being pieced together.

I also recommend Joe Shulam and Hilary Le Cornu's books, esp. The Jewish Roots of Acts.

 

[ShirChadash]

I haven't heard of those two authors (Shulam and Le Cornu), but I'll keep an eye out for them. Thankie!

 

[CharlesYTK]

Greetings,
I have read most of these mentioned. Also there is Paul the Convert by Paul Segal, which is very good. Also recommend Mystery of the Gospel Daniel Landcaster and Fellow Heirs, Tim Hegg. How refresing it is to read of a Paul in agreement with Messiah rather than a Paul who is a false prophet and teaching the opposite and contrary things.When you allow Paul to speak for himself, instead of putting the words of the Chruch fathers in his mouth, the entire Bible comes into agreement. I wrote a rather lengthy article a few years ago call "Paul Aostle or Apostate", which presented Paul in agreement and in a Jewish context. The churchmen about ate me alive. (Luckily they spit me out cause I tasted bad.)

 

[ShirChadash]

LOL, Charles.

Do you still have the article? I'd like to read it, if you could link me.

Thankie.

 

[davidoffinland]

From Finland.

I have really enjoyed the New Perspective and seeing Paul in 1st Ct Judaism. I have just finished reading James Dunn´s, "The Theology of Paul". He is basing most everything on Tenach and Jewish thinking prior to New Testament times. Also I have read Dunn´s book on "Epistle to the Galatians" and his "Christolgy in the Making"...origins of the incarnation. These books are vital for the renewal of theology in the our CT. I also have read Shulam´s book on Romans...excellant.

Shalom,
David.

 

[Rabbi Klein]

I personally view Paul as a man who struggled with his faith, evolved in his worship and understanding of haShem, and quite simply put was human in all he did. It seems that many christians have placed his words above their Messiah. While Paul may offer valuable lessons and excellent teaching, is it not odd that many would almost make him out to be the messiah? Maybe this old man has a few things to learn yet but I think its not necessarily the interpretations of the words of Paul but instead the placing of a man upon a pedastol that has led to so much confusion. What thinks ye?

R. Klein

 

[CharlesYTK]

Paul was thouroughly Jewish in his theology and in his practice of religion. His Gospel was that of the fulfillment of the promise to Abraham. He saw the culmination of the plan of God to establish a Kingdom of all men, not just genetic sons of Abraham but extended to all the nations through faith. It is the Shema, spoken to all the nations. "Shema Olam,Adonai Eloheynu, Adonai Echad" And since there is one God, there can only be one people of God. (One bride for Abba, Israel.) But now Israel is not just the sons of Jacob, but all those who love Adonai, and seek to serve him. This inclusion of the Gentiles did not depend on having a drop or two of Jewish blood in your heritage. It didn't depend on rabbinical conversion rituals. Everyone has sin that keeps them from being able to come close to Adonai. The blood of Messiah is the only thing that is worthy of paying the required penalty and to make a way into the presence of Elohim who is perfectly holy and pure. And for Paul anything that would try to add to that perfect sacrifice or lessen its value, (like requiring Rabinical traditions and legalisms) was an afront to the sacrifice of Yeshua. It was to say that what Messiah did was not enough. He, Yeshua, is sufficient for all things.

 

[CharlesYTK]

I personally view Paul as a man who struggled with his faith, evolved in his worship and understanding of haShem, and quite simply put was human in all he did. It seems that many christians have placed his words above their Messiah. While Paul may offer valuable lessons and excellent teaching, is it not odd that many would almost make him out to be the messiah? Maybe this old man has a few things to learn yet but I think its not necessarily the interpretations of the words of Paul but instead the placing of a man upon a pedastol that has led to so much confusion. What thinks ye?

R. Klein

Are you amiliar with the term "Pauline Christianity"?

It describes the majority of the Christian Church. And the really sad part about this is that it is really based on a perversion of his words and seeks to make Pauls teaching Antisemitic and Antinomial, which they were neither. They have twisted Pauls words, and failed to read them in their original hebraic context, and within the framework of Torah, therfore Paul becomes someone completely in opposition to the teachings of Judaism and that of Messiah. Paul becomes the founder of a new religion, that follows a messiah that never existed.

 

[Rabbi Klein]

Dear Charles,

This is quite interesting. I must ask, what is the difference between "Pauline Christianity" and normal Christianity? It almost sounds the same in one to me.

R. Klein

 

[CharlesYTK]

Dear Charles,

This is quite interesting. I must ask, what is the difference between "Pauline Christianity" and normal Christianity? It almost sounds the same in one to me.

R. Klein

If I were to guess at a percentage of Christianity that is Pauline in its doctrine it would be in the high 90% area. Perhaps all but some orthodox, although this may vary. Messianics are the only groups that really take Paul as he is presented in scripture, a Jewish theologian and apostle of Yeshua, who maintained Torah observance at the core of everything he did and taught.

The Christian church worships a man named Jesus, as explained through the church fathers of the 2-4th centuries. These men used a perversion of Pauls texts, to make a more Gentile friendly, Torahless, savior called Jesus who came to free men from Torah, and Gods requirements, rather than freeing men from the sinful nature and the just penalty of our sins and to bring us back to Torah and righteousness.

 

[By Grace]

It seems that many christians have placed his words above their Messiah. While Paul may offer valuable lessons and excellent teaching, is it not odd that many would almost make him out to be the messiah?

I've noticed some of this, too, that many people seem to make Paul out to be almost on equal footing with Y'shua. It's hard not to, though, when we have so much of Paul's writings and relatively little from anyone else during that time period in the NT.

 

[CharlesYTK]

I've noticed some of this, too, that many people seem to make Paul out to be almost on equal footing with Y'shua. It's hard not to, though, when we have so much of Paul's writings and relatively little from anyone else during that time period in the NT.

Hi Jill,
Thing is, I don't think that Paul intended his letters to be used to elevate his status. And he most certainly didn't expect them to be twisted around into a new religion. Talk about someone "Tuning over in their grave", I think Paul must be spinning like a top over the things that have occurred as a result of men missusing his letters.

 

[By Grace]

Hi Jill,
Thing is, I don't think that Paul intended his letters to be used to elevate his status. And he most certainly didn't expect them to be twisted around into a new religion. Talk about someone "Tuning over in their grave", I think Paul must be spinning like a top over the things that have occurred as a result of men missusing his letters.

Hi, Charles! I definitely agree. I've wondered if he would have worded things slightly differently had he known at the time how people would interpret some of his writings. But then, I have to keep in mind that G-d DID know how people would interpret things. I'm always in awe at how challenging it can be to learn from Scripture. We'll never understand it all. But then, if we could, that would call into question the divinity and infinite, incomprehensible nature of the Author behind the authors. I think G-d wants seekers of Truth to find it, not people who are looking to justify their own beliefs; and He did not want it to be so simple that anyone could come along and immediately understand everything then get bored and turn somewhere else.

Anyway, just my thoughts. I've added several books to my amazon wish list as a result of this thread! When will I ever get to them all?

 

[visionary]

I like the part of Paul that goes out away from everyone so that he may have three years with God to truly understand the revelation he was given before sharing it with the world. I believe that is why Paul was able to live and breath the New Life in Christ as He did.

 

[CharlesYTK]

I think if I were to organize a church and start today with a bunch of unchurched people, I would make sure they studied only the Gospels and their relationship to
torah FIRST. Then when they had thins understanding I would bring Pauls teachings into the mix. That way they would see Pauls words in the frame of Yeshua's Torah, rather than the other way around where most see Yeshua's teachings in light of what the Chruch thinks Paul was telling us.