The New New Mass

MoonlessNight · Nov 27, 2011

whitetiger1 said:
Thank you for making converts feel bad. Don't worry I un convert and make you feel better

I'm sorry if I cause offense, but I'm starting to wonder what the point of this thread is. You are systematically ignoring anyone who is giving you sympathy or asking you honest questions and highlighting every unfair slight against you. It makes it look like you don't care about the reasonings behind the changes or the opinions of most people on this board, but only want to complain about how mean ultra-traditionalists are being towards you.

whitetiger1 · Nov 27, 2011

Jared R said:
Your last statement could easily make a convert feel like a second class citizen.

whitetiger - may your congregation be forgiven for its unnecessary disobedience.

The new translation is meant to be one step closer to liturgical unity by having vernacular translations rely more closely on the Latin meaning. When the Mass was only said in Latin, the words of the Mass had the same meaning all over the world. Pope Benedict wants to restore this liturgical unity by requiring translations to be faithful to the Latin meaning (as opposed to dynamic translations such as the English one that was being used in the US).

I don't want to close your ears to what I'm saying, but you have to know that from an outside perspective, this seems really silly. Saying that you will no longer attend Mass because you don't like the words anymore - that sounds really immature.

No I have wanted to stop for sometime, I haven't really went for along time until today and with how non trads are made to many places on the net. Makes me out to be liberal and I don't like liberalism. I hate change, I just something familiar.

I am sorry if I make you think I am an idiot, good or bad it is how I feel

whitetiger1 · Nov 27, 2011

MoonlessNight said:
I'm sorry if I cause offense, but I'm starting to wonder what the point of this thread is. You are systematically ignoring anyone who is giving you sympathy or asking you honest questions and highlighting every unfair slight against you. It makes it look like you don't care about the reasonings behind the changes or the opinions of most people on this board, but only want to complain about how mean ultra-traditionalists are being towards you.

Haven't seen sympathy a lot.

whitetiger1 · Nov 27, 2011

FullyMT said:
Look, I have no desire to go back to a Mass entirely in Latin. I love contemporary music and don't mind guitar, drums, etc, at Mass so long as the singing and playing is actually good. I was rather against the changes at first, but have warmed up to them. And even if I didn't, the Eucharist is the same. Jesus present in the Consecrated Bread and Wine, allowing me to receive Him into my body to be unified to Him and the whole Church. If nothing else, stay for that.

Not even sure if I believe that anymore. Thank you for the kind words though

whitetiger1 · Nov 27, 2011

Fantine said:
The changes are unfortunate, I agree, but Catholicism is so much more than a few ill-constructed, unmusical, unrhythmic phrases.

I had a friend in St. Louis who went back to her original faith when Archbishop Burke replaced Cardinal Rigali. I could certainly understand; she was a choir director, involved with the liturgy on a daily basis, working as an employee in her parish. She had known Cardinal Rigali, had even traveled on a pilgrimage to Italy that he led. I know how hard it must have been...I didn't live there during the Burke years, but I guess I would have stayed Catholic, no matter how hard it would have been, because I didn't have a previous religion to compare it to.

I feel bad, because she was such a good person (as I'm sure you are) and such an asset to her parish (as I'm sure you are.) If she had just been able to hold out a few years, he would have been gone, but she couldn't.

And I can certainly understand, but it makes me sad.

Please don't go.

I'm staying. When you feel you're at the end of your rope with the changes, PM me. I don't like the "through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievious fault" part. It makes me visualize old Hassidic rabbis. But then the "Fiddler on the Roof" music starts running through my head, and I think of the inexpressible sorrow and loss in the melody of the descending minor third followed by the descending minor second. And I remember that the Jews had hope in even the darkest of times, and saw beauty (as in the descending minor third followed by the descending minor second) even in the darkest of times, and then I am able to put up with Roman prelates trying to lay guilt trips on us for one sentence a Mass.

Thank you.

whitetiger1 · Nov 27, 2011

DeanPaul545 said:
I feel that you are being a little over dramatic here. All that has changed and added are a few words here and there. It's not rocket science and it isn't that much of a huge change. I personally think the change hasn't gone far enough, but I am happy with this for now.

I am not being over dramatic. I bet when the Mass changed the first time some were told that too. For people who love change those who don't like the change are always melodramatic

whitetiger1 · Nov 27, 2011

Drax said:
??? It's practically the same text!

Not really. If it is then why change

GeminiMoon · Nov 28, 2011

Jared R said:
Your last statement could easily make a convert feel like a second class citizen.

whitetiger - may your congregation be forgiven for its unnecessary disobedience.

The new translation is meant to be one step closer to liturgical unity by having vernacular translations rely more closely on the Latin meaning. When the Mass was only said in Latin, the words of the Mass had the same meaning all over the world. Pope Benedict wants to restore this liturgical unity by requiring translations to be faithful to the Latin meaning (as opposed to dynamic translations such as the English one that was being used in the US).

I don't want to close your ears to what I'm saying, but you have to know that from an outside perspective, this seems really silly. Saying that you will no longer attend Mass because you don't like the words anymore - that sounds really immature.

I do not wish to make it sound that way. The point i'm trying to make is that it is annoying when people come into the church, then they try to advocate either changing things about the church, or try to resist the changes made by lifelong members. It's a bit like a foreigner coming to your country and telling you what should be changed and what shouldn't be. It's not on.

whitetiger1 said:
Thank you for making converts feel bad. Don't worry I un convert and make you feel better

It's up to you whether you take it as good or bad. If you can't take a little criticism and you don't like changes that come from the Church's authority, then maybe you shouldn't be a Catholic. I'd love for you to be one, but at the moment, it doesn't seem like you accept the rule of authority from the Hierarchy.

whitetiger1 said:
Not even sure if I believe that anymore. Thank you for the kind words though

Now this makes me question your sincerity as a Catholic. So because of a few changes to the mass translation and a bit of criticism, you no longer believe in the actual presence of Christ in the Eucharist? That to me is pathetic and stupid. I think you need to take some sort of RCIA refresher course.

whitetiger1 said:
I am not being over dramatic. I bet when the Mass changed the first time some were told that too. For people who love change those who don't like the change are always melodramatic

Part of being a good Catholic is accepting teachings and changes whether you like them or not!

whitetiger1 said:
Not really. If it is then why change

If you think about it, the mass has not really changed. The translation has just become more accurate. At the time of the Second Vatican Council, they had to devise a new translation very quickly. It has took over 40 years to get this more accurate translation from Latin and has taken 11 years to do it. Nothing has changed, things have only become more accurate.

I think you should talk to your Priest about your problems, or other people in your parish.

Fantine · Nov 28, 2011

I think that change is good when it is life-affirming and respectful of human dignity. I think that change is good when it helps us build a relationship with God.

A lot of the spiritual authors I read promote the concept of mindfulness, living in the present moment. Guilt focuses on the past, which cannot be changed. Worry focuses on the future, which we often have little control over. When we live in either the past or the future we are not in the moment with God. The whole purpose of centering prayer or meditation is to be in the moment with God.

And so I find the heavy dose of guilt the translators have tried to incorporate into the new translation to be very counterproductive to the mindfulness we should be encouraging at Mass. "Here I am, Lord." Not "here I come, Lord, after I thump my chest and berate myself for all the mistakes I made in my life."

The same with "under my roof." Yes, the centurion was inviting Jesus to visit his abode. That is not what the Eucharist is...I find it sort of comical that all the traditionalists who keep reminding Catholics about the real presence are embracing this extraneous comment about Jesus visiting someone's home.

And so I embrace good change, and try to ignore bad change.

LightOfFaith · Nov 28, 2011

Don't worry WhiteTiger , you're not alone and I totally agree with your statement .
The New Missal is still NO in disguise , wearing a new hat /translation

whitetiger1 said:
It's worse than what was there previously. I know those with a traditional bent hated it but it made sense, we speak American English not Dead Roman Latin. IMHO if we are to have it in the vernacular than we should have that not some silly close to Latin.
[..]now I understand the feelings of the people like the SSPX that feel they got their Mass ripped away from them.

Joshua G. · Nov 28, 2011

Eternally Optimistic said:
Just left the evening Mass @ my parish...more people than usual! Our parish for the most part seemed okay with the updated translation, the number of "and also with you" dropped as the Mass went on. Nothing earth shattering, same Mass, updated translation! I have to say though I have an inexplicable dislike for the new translation of the Nicene Creed...maybe it's the "I believe" instead of "WE believe"...not sure yet though.

This is the reason I was told we do it this way in the EO (I am not saying that this si why the RCC decided to change it back). We say the Creed in order to prepare for the Eucharist and, in fact, it is followed by many preparatory acts fo rthe Eucharist.

I was told we say it this way because first I need to examine my own beliefs we enter the community individually and then come as a greater whole. Later, we pray the Our Father as community (in the 1st person plural).

So you start with the self and then continue as a community.

Sorry if that didn't make much sense. I was explained to me much better but that's the gist.

AMDG · Nov 28, 2011

whitetiger1 said:
Not really. If it is then why change

To be a more faithful translation? To again note the meanings that have been eroded?

I thought yesterday's EWTN homily explaining the "And with your spirit" instead of "And with you" quite interesting. Father Joseph Wolfe noted that "And with your spirit" is said in the Mass four times. He noted that it is said to the priest, the ordained minister. He also noted that it is not just a remembrance of the Mass as just a communal meal, or even meaningless phrase referring to him as a human being. He said that it really does refer to the priest's spirit--an asking for help of God for assistance so the priest and fulfill what he is called to do (celebrate Mass)--something a mere human being could not be able to do without the help of God. Never thought of it that way. Just accepted what we have all been told--that it's just a more accurate translation.

As to the Credo (the Creed), well the translation *does* indicate the singular--"I" and not "We". I sort of liked what our priest said, "We blend our voices together". And I am happy that I no longer have to guess when to bow to Our Lord in the Credo. Glad that others will no longer skip over it as if Our Lord does not deserve special note that He became man for us. Sort of glad that there is more emphasis on God instead of just us.

Of course I've been around for the first changes, and changes after that, and then the instiution of the Novus Ordo, so I guess these small returns to what was (and to make things more uniform in the Mass celebrated throughout the world) doesn't really bother me. I think that after a few "false starts" we'll get used to it. (Although I'm pretty sure we'll probably be hearing an occassional "And with you" some thirty years from now. Afterall, there are some who still say "Amen" after the Lord's prayer instead of the doxology that was attached to it.)

Borromeo · Nov 28, 2011

You're being over the top... Its not 'arcane' English or trying to be like Latin, it is a more accurate translation usually totally normal English. "And with your spirit" is what the liturgy has always said (and what all other liturgies in the Catholic church use) - it was actually a mistake for the English translation to be saying "And with you" or whatever.

GeminiMoon · Nov 28, 2011

Borromeo said:
You're being over the top... Its not 'arcane' English or trying to be like Latin, it is a more accurate translation usually totally normal English. "And with your spirit" is what the liturgy has always said (and what all other liturgies in the Catholic church use) - it was actually a mistake for the English translation to be saying "And with you" or whatever.

I agree with you. People are blowing this way out of proportion and are failing to see that it is a change of wording. It's not as if we have changed rites and become like eastern Catholics. Then i'd understand their frustration. But I cannot sympathise with them if they are going to be so trivial.

ivebeenshown · Nov 28, 2011

I think it was kind of trivial to change the wording, but it's no big deal and I can get along with it. It's not really about what I think about it, it's what the Church decides, and we are supposed to be as one at Mass.

GeminiMoon · Nov 28, 2011

ivebeenshown said:
I think it was kind of trivial to change the wording, but it's no big deal and I can get along with it. It's not really about what I think about it, it's what the Church decides, and we are supposed to be as one at Mass.

In my opinion, it was not trivial to want to change it. It is better to be more accurate in the translation rather than losing important aspects of the mass i.e the level of spirituality. The change of 'and also with you' to 'and with your spirit' may be a little change, but it has a much bigger meaning and impact I find.
Also, the translation that came about after Vatican 2 was drafted up in a rush and they have been planning to redo it for some time.
But I agree that what the Church says is what is right on this matter.

Joshua G. · Nov 28, 2011

When do you bow in during the Creed? I'd never noticed this.

GeminiMoon · Nov 28, 2011

Joshua G. said:
When do you bow in during the Creed? I'd never noticed this.

According to this leaflet I have, you bow after you say "and in Jesus Christ, his only son, our Lord' up until and including 'born of the virgin Mary'.

I've never seen this happen either.

FullyMT · Nov 28, 2011

Joshua G. said:
When do you bow in during the Creed? I'd never noticed this.

"by the power of the Holy Spirit, he was born of the Virgin Mary and became Man" It's supposed to be a reverent bow, but not a profound one (about 20-40 degrees verses 45-90)

MKJ · Nov 28, 2011

Joshua G. said:
When do you bow in during the Creed? I'd never noticed this.

We bow, or genuflect, during the Creed from "came down from Heaven" and stand again just after "and was made man". There is also often a small bow - more of a head nod - at the name of Jesus at the beginning and also at "worshiped" in the section on the HG. Though individual responses vary considerably, some do all of these things, some none, and everything in between.

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