Question: If the church is not a part of the New Covenant how do you explain "He has made us competent as MINISTERS OF THE NEW COVENANT--not of the letter but the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life." (2 Cor 3:6)?
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CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
The New Covenant
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LamorakDesGalis
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Some traditional dispensationalists used to advocate two New covenants - one for Israel and a spiritual one for the church. Many traditional dispensationalists today believe there is one (future) New Covenant, but they are unsure how it relates to the church today.
For progressives like me, we hold that the church is already participating in the New Covenant and that there are also future aspects of the NC which are not yet fulfilled. So we see no problem with 2 Cor 3:6 where Paul, a Jew, said he was a minister of the New Covenant.
Lamorak Des Galis
For progressives like me, we hold that the church is already participating in the New Covenant and that there are also future aspects of the NC which are not yet fulfilled. So we see no problem with 2 Cor 3:6 where Paul, a Jew, said he was a minister of the New Covenant.
Lamorak Des Galis
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BT
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Not of the letter; not of the written law, that is, of the Old Testament dispensation.--Of the spirit; off the gospel, which had yet been communicated thus far chiefly by direct spiritual influences, and not by written records.--Killeth; denounces death.
--Abbott
Of the new testament. Of the new covenant, Cmt. on Mt 21:28, in contradistinction from the old covenant, which was established through Moses. They were appointed to go forth and make the provisions of that new covenant known to a dying world.
Not of the letter. Not of the literal or verbal meaning, in contradistinction from the spirit. Cmt. on Ro 2:27, Cmt. on Ro 2:29; Cmt. on Ro 7:6. This is said, doubtless, in opposition to the Jews and Jewish teachers. They insisted much on the letter of the law, but entered little into its real meaning. They did not seek out the true spiritual sense of the Old Testament; and hence they rested on the mere literal observance of the rites and ceremonies of religion, without understanding their true nature and design. Their service, though in many respects conformed to the letter of the law, yet became cold, formal, and hypocritical; abounding in mere ceremonies, and where the heart had little to do. Hence there was little pure spiritual worship offered to God; and hence also they rejected the Messiah whom the old covenant prefigured, and was designed to set forth.
For the letter killeth. Comp. Cmt. on Ro 4:15; Cmt. on Ro 7:9. The mere letter of the law of Moses. The effect of it was merely to produce condemnation; to produce a sense of guilt, and danger, and not to produce pardon, relief, and joy. The law denounced death; condemned sin in all forms; and the effect of it was to produce a sense of guilt and condemnation.
But the spirit giveth life. The spirit, in contradistinction front the mere literal interpretation of the Scriptures. The Spirit, that is, Christ, says Locke. Comp. 2Co 3:17. The spirit here means, says Bloomfield, that new spiritual system, the gospel. The Spirit of God speaking in us, says Doddridge. The spirit here seems to refer to the new testament, or the new dispensation, in contradistinction from the old. That was characterized mainly by its strictness of law, and by its burdensome rites, and by the severe tone of its denunciation for sin. It did not in itself provide a way of pardon and peace. Law condemns; it does not speak of forgiveness. On the contrary, the gospel, a spiritual system, is designed to impart life and comfort to the soul. It speaks peace. It comes not to condemn, but to save. It discloses a way of mercy, and it invites all to partake and live. It is called "spirit," probably because its consolations are imparted and secured by the Spirit of God--the source of all true life to the soul. It is the dispensation of the Spirit; and it demands a spiritual service--a service that is free, and elevated, and tending eminently to purify the heart and to save the soul. Cmt. on 2Co 3:17.
{c} "able ministers" Eph 3:7; 1Ti 1:12
{d} "the new testament" Mt 26:28; Heb 8:6-10
{e} "but of the spirit" Ro 2:28-29
{f} "letter killeth" Ro 4:15; 7:9-10
{g} "spirit giveth" Joh 6:63; Ro 8:2
{1} "giveth life" "quickeneth"
--Barnes
2Co 3:6
Hath made us able ministers; hath given us sufficiency to be ministers, as the original means. The new testament; the new covenant of the gospel, revealing the way of salvation through Jesus Christ. Not of the letter; not of the outward form merely, but of the design, end, and spiritual meaning, the right apprehension and cordial reception of which is, through the grace of God, life-giving, while dependence upon the letter or outward form merely is ruinous to the soul. To rely for salvation on the possession of the Scriptures, on the stated reading of them, or on any outward forms and privileges, is destructive; while the right understanding of the Scriptures, and spiritual obedience to their true meaning, are saving to the soul.
-- Family Bible Notes (not a great commentary)
2. He amplifies his ministry and his fellows: that is to say, the ministry of the Gospel comparing it with the ministry of the Law, which he considers in the person of Moses, by whom the Law was given: against whom he sets Christ the author of the Gospel. Now this comparison is taken from the very substance of the ministry. The Law is as it were a writing in itself, dead, and without efficacy: but the Gospel, and new Covenant, as it were the very power of God itself, in renewing, justifying, and saving men. The Law offers death, accusing all men of unrighteousness: the Gospel offers and gives righteousness and life. The administration of the Law served for a time to the promise: the Gospel remains to the end of the world. Therefore what is the glory of the Law in comparison of the majesty of the Gospel?
f. Not of the Law but of the Gospel.
-- Geneva Bible Footnotes
6. able--rather, as the Greek is the same, corresponding to 2Co 3:5, translate, "sufficient as ministers" (Eph 3:7; Col 1:23).
the new testament--"the new covenant" as contrasted with the Old Testament or covenant (1Co 11:25; Ga 4:24). He reverts here again to the contrast between the law on "tables of stone," and that "written by the Spirit on fleshly tables of the heart" (2Co 3:3).
not of the letter--joined with "ministers"; ministers not of the mere literal precept, in which the old law, as then understood, consisted; "but of the Spirit," that is, the spiritual holiness which lay under the old law, and which the new covenant brings to light (Mt 5:17-48) with new motives added, and a new power of obedience imparted, namely, the Holy Spirit (Ro 7:6). Even in writing the letter of the New Testament, Paul and the other sacred writers were ministers not of the letter, but of the spirit. No piety of spirit could exempt a man from the yoke of the letter of each legal ordinance under the Old Testament; for God had appointed this as the way in which He chose a devout Jew to express his state of mind towards God. Christianity, on the other hand, makes the spirit of our outward observances everything, and the letter a secondary consideration (Joh 4:24). Still the moral law of the ten commandments, being written by the finger of God, is as obligatory now as ever; but put more on the Gospel spirit of "love," than on the letter of a servile obedience, and in a deeper and fuller spirituality (Mt 5:17-48; Ro 13:9). No literal precepts could fully comprehend the wide range of holiness which LOVE, the work of the Holy Spirit, under the Gospel, suggests to the believer's heart instinctively from the word understood in its deep spirituality.
letter killeth--by bringing home the knowledge of guilt and its punishment, death; 2Co 3:7, "ministration of death" (Ro 7:9).
spirit giveth life--The spirit of the Gospel when brought home to the heart by the Holy Spirit, gives new spiritual life to a man (Ro 6:4,11). This "spirit of life" is for us in Christ Jesus (Ro 8:2,10), who dwells in the believer as a "quickening" or "life-giving Spirit" (1Co 15:45). Note, the spiritualism of rationalists is very different. It would admit no "stereotyped revelation," except so much as man's own inner instrument of revelation, the conscience and reason, can approve of: thus making the conscience judge of the written word, whereas the apostles make the written word the judge of the conscience (Ac 17:11; 1Pe 4:1). True spirituality rests on the whole written word, applied to the soul by the Holy Spirit as the only infallible interpreter of its far-reaching spirituality. The letter is nothing without the spirit, in a subject essentially spiritual. The spirit is nothing without the letter, in a record substantially historical.
-- Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Commentary
Who also hath made us able ministers of the New Testament. God gave Paul and his fellow-ministers their "sufficiency" (2Co 3:5), who had made them able ministers of the gospel.
New Testament. The New Covenant, the Covenant of Christ. This is here contrasted with the Old Covenant, the Jewish. One is the Law; the other the Gospel. Compare Heb 8:7-13.
Not of the letter, but of the Spirit. The first, the law, was written (by letters written and engraven on stones, hence of the letter); the gospel is the dispensation of the Spirit.
The letter killeth. The law. It condemns all who do not obey its commands, but could make no man perfect. The law places under the sentence of death. See notes on Ro 7:9-10.
The Spirit giveth life. The gospel bestows eternal life.
-- The People's New Testament Commentary
--Abbott
Of the new testament. Of the new covenant, Cmt. on Mt 21:28, in contradistinction from the old covenant, which was established through Moses. They were appointed to go forth and make the provisions of that new covenant known to a dying world.
Not of the letter. Not of the literal or verbal meaning, in contradistinction from the spirit. Cmt. on Ro 2:27, Cmt. on Ro 2:29; Cmt. on Ro 7:6. This is said, doubtless, in opposition to the Jews and Jewish teachers. They insisted much on the letter of the law, but entered little into its real meaning. They did not seek out the true spiritual sense of the Old Testament; and hence they rested on the mere literal observance of the rites and ceremonies of religion, without understanding their true nature and design. Their service, though in many respects conformed to the letter of the law, yet became cold, formal, and hypocritical; abounding in mere ceremonies, and where the heart had little to do. Hence there was little pure spiritual worship offered to God; and hence also they rejected the Messiah whom the old covenant prefigured, and was designed to set forth.
For the letter killeth. Comp. Cmt. on Ro 4:15; Cmt. on Ro 7:9. The mere letter of the law of Moses. The effect of it was merely to produce condemnation; to produce a sense of guilt, and danger, and not to produce pardon, relief, and joy. The law denounced death; condemned sin in all forms; and the effect of it was to produce a sense of guilt and condemnation.
But the spirit giveth life. The spirit, in contradistinction front the mere literal interpretation of the Scriptures. The Spirit, that is, Christ, says Locke. Comp. 2Co 3:17. The spirit here means, says Bloomfield, that new spiritual system, the gospel. The Spirit of God speaking in us, says Doddridge. The spirit here seems to refer to the new testament, or the new dispensation, in contradistinction from the old. That was characterized mainly by its strictness of law, and by its burdensome rites, and by the severe tone of its denunciation for sin. It did not in itself provide a way of pardon and peace. Law condemns; it does not speak of forgiveness. On the contrary, the gospel, a spiritual system, is designed to impart life and comfort to the soul. It speaks peace. It comes not to condemn, but to save. It discloses a way of mercy, and it invites all to partake and live. It is called "spirit," probably because its consolations are imparted and secured by the Spirit of God--the source of all true life to the soul. It is the dispensation of the Spirit; and it demands a spiritual service--a service that is free, and elevated, and tending eminently to purify the heart and to save the soul. Cmt. on 2Co 3:17.
{c} "able ministers" Eph 3:7; 1Ti 1:12
{d} "the new testament" Mt 26:28; Heb 8:6-10
{e} "but of the spirit" Ro 2:28-29
{f} "letter killeth" Ro 4:15; 7:9-10
{g} "spirit giveth" Joh 6:63; Ro 8:2
{1} "giveth life" "quickeneth"
--Barnes
2Co 3:6
Hath made us able ministers; hath given us sufficiency to be ministers, as the original means. The new testament; the new covenant of the gospel, revealing the way of salvation through Jesus Christ. Not of the letter; not of the outward form merely, but of the design, end, and spiritual meaning, the right apprehension and cordial reception of which is, through the grace of God, life-giving, while dependence upon the letter or outward form merely is ruinous to the soul. To rely for salvation on the possession of the Scriptures, on the stated reading of them, or on any outward forms and privileges, is destructive; while the right understanding of the Scriptures, and spiritual obedience to their true meaning, are saving to the soul.
-- Family Bible Notes (not a great commentary)
2. He amplifies his ministry and his fellows: that is to say, the ministry of the Gospel comparing it with the ministry of the Law, which he considers in the person of Moses, by whom the Law was given: against whom he sets Christ the author of the Gospel. Now this comparison is taken from the very substance of the ministry. The Law is as it were a writing in itself, dead, and without efficacy: but the Gospel, and new Covenant, as it were the very power of God itself, in renewing, justifying, and saving men. The Law offers death, accusing all men of unrighteousness: the Gospel offers and gives righteousness and life. The administration of the Law served for a time to the promise: the Gospel remains to the end of the world. Therefore what is the glory of the Law in comparison of the majesty of the Gospel?
f. Not of the Law but of the Gospel.
-- Geneva Bible Footnotes
6. able--rather, as the Greek is the same, corresponding to 2Co 3:5, translate, "sufficient as ministers" (Eph 3:7; Col 1:23).
the new testament--"the new covenant" as contrasted with the Old Testament or covenant (1Co 11:25; Ga 4:24). He reverts here again to the contrast between the law on "tables of stone," and that "written by the Spirit on fleshly tables of the heart" (2Co 3:3).
not of the letter--joined with "ministers"; ministers not of the mere literal precept, in which the old law, as then understood, consisted; "but of the Spirit," that is, the spiritual holiness which lay under the old law, and which the new covenant brings to light (Mt 5:17-48) with new motives added, and a new power of obedience imparted, namely, the Holy Spirit (Ro 7:6). Even in writing the letter of the New Testament, Paul and the other sacred writers were ministers not of the letter, but of the spirit. No piety of spirit could exempt a man from the yoke of the letter of each legal ordinance under the Old Testament; for God had appointed this as the way in which He chose a devout Jew to express his state of mind towards God. Christianity, on the other hand, makes the spirit of our outward observances everything, and the letter a secondary consideration (Joh 4:24). Still the moral law of the ten commandments, being written by the finger of God, is as obligatory now as ever; but put more on the Gospel spirit of "love," than on the letter of a servile obedience, and in a deeper and fuller spirituality (Mt 5:17-48; Ro 13:9). No literal precepts could fully comprehend the wide range of holiness which LOVE, the work of the Holy Spirit, under the Gospel, suggests to the believer's heart instinctively from the word understood in its deep spirituality.
letter killeth--by bringing home the knowledge of guilt and its punishment, death; 2Co 3:7, "ministration of death" (Ro 7:9).
spirit giveth life--The spirit of the Gospel when brought home to the heart by the Holy Spirit, gives new spiritual life to a man (Ro 6:4,11). This "spirit of life" is for us in Christ Jesus (Ro 8:2,10), who dwells in the believer as a "quickening" or "life-giving Spirit" (1Co 15:45). Note, the spiritualism of rationalists is very different. It would admit no "stereotyped revelation," except so much as man's own inner instrument of revelation, the conscience and reason, can approve of: thus making the conscience judge of the written word, whereas the apostles make the written word the judge of the conscience (Ac 17:11; 1Pe 4:1). True spirituality rests on the whole written word, applied to the soul by the Holy Spirit as the only infallible interpreter of its far-reaching spirituality. The letter is nothing without the spirit, in a subject essentially spiritual. The spirit is nothing without the letter, in a record substantially historical.
-- Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Commentary
Who also hath made us able ministers of the New Testament. God gave Paul and his fellow-ministers their "sufficiency" (2Co 3:5), who had made them able ministers of the gospel.
New Testament. The New Covenant, the Covenant of Christ. This is here contrasted with the Old Covenant, the Jewish. One is the Law; the other the Gospel. Compare Heb 8:7-13.
Not of the letter, but of the Spirit. The first, the law, was written (by letters written and engraven on stones, hence of the letter); the gospel is the dispensation of the Spirit.
The letter killeth. The law. It condemns all who do not obey its commands, but could make no man perfect. The law places under the sentence of death. See notes on Ro 7:9-10.
The Spirit giveth life. The gospel bestows eternal life.
-- The People's New Testament Commentary
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AV1611 said:I would say Body
Hi AV1611, Would you agree or disagree with the above statement?http://www.bibleunderstanding.com/actsepistles.htm said:
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I understand...AV1611 said:
But that's not **really** what that was about.
The question asked was "Are you spiritual ministers of the New Covenant (which is to be made with the House of Israel and the House of Judah, in that Day)?"There is a BIG difference between being a spiritual minister and a "partaker".
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OK, I'll try... give me a bit...AV1611 said:Could you please explain in a bit more detail...
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I
In Christ Forever
Guest
My understanding of the scriptures is that God would make a convenant with the House of Israel and not with Judah/Levi. I realize there are verses that can be brought up to dispute this, but wasn't Jesus' main mission to take away the sins of the world and get rid of the OC Law which actually "produced sin" and bring in worshipping God in Spirit and Truth instead? I could bring up hundreds of scripture just on what God said against Judah/Levi and they were Truly wiped out in the first century by God though the remnant did combine with the House of Israel.
Just wondering how others view this God bless.
I truly doubt this is a literal "10 men", as 10 is usually symbolically a "complete number" in the bible[for example, why did God split Israel up as 10 and 2 instead of 6 and 6?
zech 8:23 "Thus says the LORD of hosts: 'In those days ten men from every language of the nations shall grasp the sleeve of a Jewish man[Jesus Christ], saying, "Let us go with you, for we have heard [that] God [is] with you." ' "
hebrew 8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant withthe house of Israel and with the house of Judah-- 9 "not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD. 10 "For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
malachi 2:10 Have we not all one Father? Has not one God created us? Why do we deal treacherously with one another By profaning the covenant of the fathers? 11 Judah has dealt treacherously, And an abomination has been committed in Israel and in Jerusalem, For Judah has profaned The LORD's holy [institution] which He loves: He has married the daughter of a foreign god. 12 May the LORD cut off from the tents of Jacob The man who does this, being awake and aware, Yet who brings an offering to the LORD of hosts!
Romans 7:25 I thank God -- through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
Just wondering how others view this
God bless.I truly doubt this is a literal "10 men", as 10 is usually symbolically a "complete number" in the bible[for example, why did God split Israel up as 10 and 2 instead of 6 and 6?
zech 8:23 "Thus says the LORD of hosts: 'In those days ten men from every language of the nations shall grasp the sleeve of a Jewish man[Jesus Christ], saying, "Let us go with you, for we have heard [that] God [is] with you." ' "
hebrew 8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant withthe house of Israel and with the house of Judah-- 9 "not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD. 10 "For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
malachi 2:10 Have we not all one Father? Has not one God created us? Why do we deal treacherously with one another By profaning the covenant of the fathers? 11 Judah has dealt treacherously, And an abomination has been committed in Israel and in Jerusalem, For Judah has profaned The LORD's holy [institution] which He loves: He has married the daughter of a foreign god. 12 May the LORD cut off from the tents of Jacob The man who does this, being awake and aware, Yet who brings an offering to the LORD of hosts!
Romans 7:25 I thank God -- through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
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I think that the NC is in operation now and we recieve the blessings of it as we have been grafted into the tree of blessing. However the NC has not been fulfilled which will happen in the future when God starts dealing once again with Israel.
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Hi Av,AV1611 said:I think that the NC is in operation now and we recieve the blessings of it as we have been grafted into the tree of blessing. However the NC has not been fulfilled which will happen in the future when God starts dealing once again with Israel.
Quick question: What IS the New Covenant?
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Hi AV:
Your question is one that sends many dispensationalists running for cover; scratching their heads, and other parts of the anatomy as well. Is Paul teaching that the New Covenant has application to Christs body (1Cor. 12:27)? No. Your question should also include Pauls quote of Christ (Luke 22:20) in 1Cor. 11:25.
Several keys are needed to unlock the doors to understand many statements Paul made to this CorinthianChurch. Let us look at some others and seek the common solution for all:
And then Paul makes the contradictory statement:
What is going on here? Paul testifies that he is baptizing, then says Christ did not send him to baptize in the next verse . . . ?? The answer is that the Apostle Paul preached both gospel messages of the New Testament to both the bride (Gospel of the Kingdom; Matt. 24:14) and the body (Christ and Him crucified; 1Cor. 2:2, 15:3+4) under separate dispensations. This Corinthian church contains members from both administrations under one roof. Just above these verses, Paul writes,
This is why Paul is glad he did not baptize many disciples into the Kingdom of God on earth. The practice was for the kingdom disciples, like those in Acts 19:1-6, to identify themselves as being of the person who did the actual water baptism for the forgiveness of sins (Mark 1:4, Acts 2:38). Those claiming to be of Peter were baptized by him; the same going for Apollos. Those are all members of the KingdomChurch based in Jerusalem, and members of the bride (John 3:29). Paul calls them the fellow workers for the kingdom of God who are from the circumcision. Col. 4:11.
The New Covenant has full application to the members of the bride of Christ (of the Kingdom), because it is a promise of a future joining to the Lamb in Rev. 19:5-10. The members of the bride had many advantages over the members of the body of Christ in Pauls day. They had the gifts of the Spirit, including the sign gifts of Prophecy, Knowledge and Tongues. Those were the gifts to cease and be done away, according to 1Cor. 13:8-10. The members of the body had only a pledge of their inheritance for the day of redemption. Eph. 1:13+14, 4:30.
Select members of the original cast of Gods principal characters of our New Testament had membership in both the bride and the body. Timothy just happens to be one of those souls selected by Paul from among the members of the body to go with him and preach the gospel of the kingdom. Note Paul preaching the kingdom in Acts 20:25. That is why Paul had him circumcised in Acts 16:1-3.
And herein is the final key to unlock the Prophecy door and solve our New Covenant riddle. The New Covenant, like the Old, has focus upon the House of Israel and Judah. Remember also what Christ said during the Four Gospels:
Remember also how Paul describes Israel of the flesh and the promises of God:
The members of the body of Christ are not a nation, people or a race to which God has promised anything. Our access to God is not through Israel of the flesh, or the covenants or the giving of the Law. Our blessing comes because of the transgression (Rom. 11:11+12) and through their stumbling over Christ. Rom. 9:30-32. We come to God through obedience to the Gospel, and become members of His body through the one baptism (Eph. 4:5) by the one Spirit. 1Cor. 12:13. We have been raised with Christ already to be seated in Him in the heavenly places. Eph. 2:4-7 (6). We have died and our lives are hidden with Christ in God even now. Col. 3:1-4. The New Covenant described throughout Hebrews (8:8, 8:13, 9:15, 12:24) is directed at the kingdom disciples of the coming restored Kingdom of Israel here on the earth. That is what Hebrews Revelation is all about. Those books represent Gods personal mail and marching to the disciples of that day, just as Pauls words are the Lords Commandment (1Cor. 14:37+38) for us today.
In Christ,
Terral
Your question is one that sends many dispensationalists running for cover; scratching their heads, and other parts of the anatomy as well. Is Paul teaching that the New Covenant has application to Christs body (1Cor. 12:27)? No. Your question should also include Pauls quote of Christ (Luke 22:20) in 1Cor. 11:25.
Several keys are needed to unlock the doors to understand many statements Paul made to this CorinthianChurch. Let us look at some others and seek the common solution for all:
And then Paul makes the contradictory statement:
What is going on here? Paul testifies that he is baptizing, then says Christ did not send him to baptize in the next verse . . . ?? The answer is that the Apostle Paul preached both gospel messages of the New Testament to both the bride (Gospel of the Kingdom; Matt. 24:14) and the body (Christ and Him crucified; 1Cor. 2:2, 15:3+4) under separate dispensations. This Corinthian church contains members from both administrations under one roof. Just above these verses, Paul writes,
This is why Paul is glad he did not baptize many disciples into the Kingdom of God on earth. The practice was for the kingdom disciples, like those in Acts 19:1-6, to identify themselves as being of the person who did the actual water baptism for the forgiveness of sins (Mark 1:4, Acts 2:38). Those claiming to be of Peter were baptized by him; the same going for Apollos. Those are all members of the KingdomChurch based in Jerusalem, and members of the bride (John 3:29). Paul calls them the fellow workers for the kingdom of God who are from the circumcision. Col. 4:11.
The New Covenant has full application to the members of the bride of Christ (of the Kingdom), because it is a promise of a future joining to the Lamb in Rev. 19:5-10. The members of the bride had many advantages over the members of the body of Christ in Pauls day. They had the gifts of the Spirit, including the sign gifts of Prophecy, Knowledge and Tongues. Those were the gifts to cease and be done away, according to 1Cor. 13:8-10. The members of the body had only a pledge of their inheritance for the day of redemption. Eph. 1:13+14, 4:30.
Select members of the original cast of Gods principal characters of our New Testament had membership in both the bride and the body. Timothy just happens to be one of those souls selected by Paul from among the members of the body to go with him and preach the gospel of the kingdom. Note Paul preaching the kingdom in Acts 20:25. That is why Paul had him circumcised in Acts 16:1-3.
This appears to be a contradiction to Pauls words to the Galatians in Gal. 5:1-5. The difference is that Timothy was not seeking to be justified through this work of the Law, as was the recommendation from those disturbing the Galatians (Gal. 1:6+7; Acts 15:24). Instead, Timothy could not preach the gospel of the kingdom (Matt. 24:14) to Jews while uncircumcised first (Rom. 1:16, 2:9), before then preaching the Pauls my gospel (Rom. 16:25) to the Gentiles. Remember that Paul was commissioned by Christ:
And herein is the final key to unlock the Prophecy door and solve our New Covenant riddle. The New Covenant, like the Old, has focus upon the House of Israel and Judah. Remember also what Christ said during the Four Gospels:
Remember also how Paul describes Israel of the flesh and the promises of God:
The members of the body of Christ are not a nation, people or a race to which God has promised anything. Our access to God is not through Israel of the flesh, or the covenants or the giving of the Law. Our blessing comes because of the transgression (Rom. 11:11+12) and through their stumbling over Christ. Rom. 9:30-32. We come to God through obedience to the Gospel, and become members of His body through the one baptism (Eph. 4:5) by the one Spirit. 1Cor. 12:13. We have been raised with Christ already to be seated in Him in the heavenly places. Eph. 2:4-7 (6). We have died and our lives are hidden with Christ in God even now. Col. 3:1-4. The New Covenant described throughout Hebrews (8:8, 8:13, 9:15, 12:24) is directed at the kingdom disciples of the coming restored Kingdom of Israel here on the earth. That is what Hebrews Revelation is all about. Those books represent Gods personal mail and marching to the disciples of that day, just as Pauls words are the Lords Commandment (1Cor. 14:37+38) for us today.
In Christ,
Terral
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Hitch:
Here is the way we play the game, Hitch. You are the skeptic who is here to discount the importance of dispensations in Scripture. That is all fine and good. I am going to make a series of supported statements on the various topics in this room. Then you get to come behind and use Scripture to prove any or everything to be false. Your Lols are just evidence that you disagree, or do not even understand enough about the post to give a credible reply. You disagreeing with someone proves nothing. All of my statements above that you fail to disprove shall continue to stand. Then my standing statements and your mounting number of one sentence posts prove to the third party reader who is approved before men (1Cor. 11:19) and God (2Tim. 2:15).
Your waiting around with no serious reply is what I fully expect to see from your side of the discussion. Please continue with the smart attitude and one liner posts. You will have 10,000 of them in no time.
In Christ,
Terral
Here is the way we play the game, Hitch. You are the skeptic who is here to discount the importance of dispensations in Scripture. That is all fine and good. I am going to make a series of supported statements on the various topics in this room. Then you get to come behind and use Scripture to prove any or everything to be false. Your Lols are just evidence that you disagree, or do not even understand enough about the post to give a credible reply. You disagreeing with someone proves nothing. All of my statements above that you fail to disprove shall continue to stand. Then my standing statements and your mounting number of one sentence posts prove to the third party reader who is approved before men (1Cor. 11:19) and God (2Tim. 2:15).
Your waiting around with no serious reply is what I fully expect to see from your side of the discussion. Please continue with the smart attitude and one liner posts. You will have 10,000 of them in no time.
In Christ,
Terral
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In Christ Forever
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Hi Teral. I am confused on this new convenant in hebrews. First God said He would make one with the House of Judah and House of Israel.
Then in vs 10 He just says the House of Israel. This appears to be saying to me that the House of Judah/Levi would no longer be part of the NC and maybe the reason for this is because of the Sin of Judah. The remnant left from the first century destruction of the temple and jerusalem would however be merged with the House of Israel/Gentiles under One King and Lord, Jesus the Christ.
The NC would never be like the OC which was the Mosaic Law, correct?.
Jesus was from the House of Judah, so evidently that preistly tribe would no longer be needed again as Christ is now serving as the High Priest, correct? I am wondering how the Israelites view this. God bless.
Hebrew 8:7 For if that first [covenant] had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah -- 9 "not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD. 10 "For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.[another words, through the Holy Spirit, worshipping in Truth and Spirit with the Jerusalem above as our Mother]. Any views on this. God bless.
Jeremiah 17:1 "The sin of Judah [is] written with a pen of iron; With the point of a diamond [it is] engraved On the tablet of their heart, And on the horns of your altars, 4 And you, even yourself, Shall let go of your heritage which I gave you; And I will cause you to serve your enemies In the land which you do not know; For you have kindled a fire in My anger [which] shall burn forever."
Hebrew 6:19 This [hope] we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which enters the Presence [behind] the veil, 20 where the forerunner has entered for us, [even] Jesus, having become High Priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.
hebrew 12:25 See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more [shall we not escape] if we turn away from Him who [speaks] from heaven, 26 whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, "Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also heaven." 27 Now this, "Yet once more," indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made, that the things which cannot be shaken may remain.
Then in vs 10 He just says the House of Israel. This appears to be saying to me that the House of Judah/Levi would no longer be part of the NC and maybe the reason for this is because of the Sin of Judah. The remnant left from the first century destruction of the temple and jerusalem would however be merged with the House of Israel/Gentiles under One King and Lord, Jesus the Christ.
The NC would never be like the OC which was the Mosaic Law, correct?.
Jesus was from the House of Judah, so evidently that preistly tribe would no longer be needed again as Christ is now serving as the High Priest, correct? I am wondering how the Israelites view this. God bless.
Hebrew 8:7 For if that first [covenant] had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah -- 9 "not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD. 10 "For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.[another words, through the Holy Spirit, worshipping in Truth and Spirit with the Jerusalem above as our Mother]. Any views on this. God bless.
Jeremiah 17:1 "The sin of Judah [is] written with a pen of iron; With the point of a diamond [it is] engraved On the tablet of their heart, And on the horns of your altars, 4 And you, even yourself, Shall let go of your heritage which I gave you; And I will cause you to serve your enemies In the land which you do not know; For you have kindled a fire in My anger [which] shall burn forever."
Hebrew 6:19 This [hope] we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which enters the Presence [behind] the veil, 20 where the forerunner has entered for us, [even] Jesus, having become High Priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.
hebrew 12:25 See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more [shall we not escape] if we turn away from Him who [speaks] from heaven, 26 whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, "Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also heaven." 27 Now this, "Yet once more," indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made, that the things which cannot be shaken may remain.
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Hi ICF, The house of Israel can also refer to the whole house of Israel. So 'cause the NC is to be made with both houses and at that time the two will once become one, the house of Israel in Hebrews would be referring to all twelve tribes once again.In Christ Forever said:
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TheScottsMen
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Your post are a blessing and full of knowledge and wisdom, amen brother.Terral said:
TSM
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Hi InChristForever:
I believe we should distinguish between the throne of the Lamb and His Father (Rev. 3:21, 7:15-17) during this evil age, and New Jerusalem in the coming New Day of Rev. 21:1+. Bear in mind that we are still living during the seventh day that started in Genesis 2:3 2:4 that shall end in Rev. 20:15. When the Lamb is in the center of the throne (Rev. 7:15-17), then He is ruling while still the High Priest. As it is written,
Jesus Christ is above doing the exact same thing above in heaven that Elijah/David is doing on the earth. The restoration of all things includes all things in the heavens and all things in the earth. The tabernacle of David below is the earthy image of the real thing going on in heaven. The Book of Hebrews parallels David below and Christ above doing the same exact things. Remember the teachings of our Lord from the very beginning concerning the Kingdom:
Terral
We disagree. The Spirit is quoting OT Prophecy from Hebrews 8:8 - 8:12. Jer. 31:31-34. I believe you have things backwards regarding why Judah is held out from the other tribes. The second reference is not to exclude Judah, but to include them where all twelve are now one. The House of Judah is mentioned separately at the start, because that is where the king/prince shall be taken. Bear in mind the prophecy that came before this one:
Jeremiah and Ezekiel both prophesy that David will be restored as king over Israel:
The prince in the coming restored kingdom of Israel shall have his own portion (Eze. 45:7, 48:21), while Judah as a tribe shall also have one (Eze. 48:8). The restoration of all things (Matt. 17:10+11, Acts 3:21) includes the tabernacle of David. Acts 15:16. This is the relationship that exists between his throne and the Sanctuary/Temple through which the inhabitants of the earth shall seek the Lord. Acts 15:17. Picture David and the Spirit of the Temple assuming the positions of Adam and the tree of life in the Garden of Eden. This is what Christ means by Elijah (more than a prophet; Matt. 11:9) is coming to restore all things. Matt. 17:10+11. This Elijah character is much more than people realize. This is why when asked if he was Elijah, he said No (John 1:21), because he is more.
We disagree again. Christs Kingdom is not of this world, or even of this realm. John 18:36.
The New Covenant will not be like the Old, because His Spirit will be poured out on All Mankind (Joel 2:28, Acts 2:17) during this process. Satan will be bound for the entire 1000 years of restoration and kingdom rule. Rev. 20:5. That is not just the devil, but ALL the members of his body who are passing away. 1Cor. 2: 6. The members of the body of Christ judge the world and the angels (1Cor. 6:2+3) from the heavenly places (Eph. 2:6) during this time. The blessings to the earthly kingdom are made possible by the chaining of these world forces of this darkness (Eph. 6:12) for the thousand years. Then the bad guys are let loose at the very end of the Kingdom (Rev. 20:7). This restored Kingdom of Israel is what the antichrist comes to make desolate in Matt. 24:15. Then Israel suffers through the Great Tribulation, and then Christ appears. Matt. 24:30. Judah is not the priestly tribe, as that distinction belongs to Levi. Christ is a High Priest according to the order of Melchizedek (Gen. 14:18) who is the incarnation of the Holy Spirit. That is the Spirit of the Holy of Holies and the source of the Spirit and power of Elijah (Luke 1:17). Israel shall serve the Temple through the Levitical rituals and the king/prince of the Kingdom. Every priest shall be according to the order, because all shall have the Holy Spirit, as Israel becomes the kingdom of priests of Exodus 19:6.
I believe we should distinguish between the throne of the Lamb and His Father (Rev. 3:21, 7:15-17) during this evil age, and New Jerusalem in the coming New Day of Rev. 21:1+. Bear in mind that we are still living during the seventh day that started in Genesis 2:3 2:4 that shall end in Rev. 20:15. When the Lamb is in the center of the throne (Rev. 7:15-17), then He is ruling while still the High Priest. As it is written,
Jesus Christ is above doing the exact same thing above in heaven that Elijah/David is doing on the earth. The restoration of all things includes all things in the heavens and all things in the earth. The tabernacle of David below is the earthy image of the real thing going on in heaven. The Book of Hebrews parallels David below and Christ above doing the same exact things. Remember the teachings of our Lord from the very beginning concerning the Kingdom:
Davids tabernacle is on the earth, while above we see:
Compare to Ezekiels prophecy of David again:
And so it will be forever; David on the earth and our Lord Jesus Christ in heaven. That is the relationship being described between the Lord God and Adam in the garden back in Genesis 2. New Jerusalem and all things new do not come into play, until after the final judgment of Rev. 20:10-15. Look at the events of this Lords day (starting in Rev. 1:10) as a warm up for the members of the body of Christ as a heavenly body of judges. We will have just assumed the positions of the chained forces of evil in the heavenly, and our resources shall grow with the restoration of the kingdom of Israel on the earth in parallel fashion. Again, On earth as it is in heaven. Elijah will be restoring the kingdom and preparing the bride during this 1000 years, while the members of the body of the Lamb above find their places within the body as judges over this entire universe; first small things, then bigger things after Rev. 21:1+.
In Christ,
Terral
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