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That is not my argument. My argument is that from Calvin's writings, we are puppets. You seemed to have forgotten your OP.I’ve given many answers throughout this thread on why we aren’t puppets.
Using notable doctrines with reform theology, such as the Canons of Dort, the Westminster Confession of Faith, the London Baptist Confession of Faith, or Calvin‘s Institutes of Christian Religion, make your argument on whatever issue you have against Calvinism, but you must be able to quote one of these sources to support your claim. I will allow other sources, but they must be something that is considered in historic document document within reformed theology (Heidelberg catechism, for example).
Have fun.
And I’ve addressed that. Just read the thread.That is not my argument. My argument is that from Calvin's writings, we are puppets. You seemed to have forgotten your OP.
I am trying to understand as I want to get to the roots of the weed of Calvinism. You did not reference the posts where you addressed it - to no surprise to me as your combination of opposition while stone-walling is so typical. The closest thing I have seen to your best argument, other than non-informational dismissals and vacuous accusations, is Calvin never termed God a "puppet-master" in Post 10. Please correct me if I am wrong as I am not interested in arguing against a straw-man - is that your argument? Really?And I’ve addressed that. Just read the thread.
If you remain unwilling to seriously engage, you should do us a favor and close the thread.Let me show you the argument for how God according to Calvin controls us all like puppets - which would include all manner of forcing. Calvin states that God not only governs our movements, but our wills as well - how is that not puppetry?
“We hold that God is the disposer and ruler of all things, –that from the remotest eternity, according to his own wisdom, He decreed what he was to do, and now by his power executes what he decreed. Hence we maintain, that by His providence, not heaven and earth and inanimate creatures only, but also the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 8)“Creatures are so governed by the secret counsel of God, that nothing happens but what he has knowingly and willingly decreed.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 3)
Okay.You did not mention the Post number where you addressed it. The closest thing I have seen to an argument from you is the laughable Calvin never termed God a "puppet-master" in Post 10. Yeah, and Hitler never termed himself a megalomaniac, so he must not be one.
Below I repeat my argument from Post 5.
I mentioned a few things. Okay to what explicitly?Okay.
I’ve already addressed your argument in this thread. Just because I didn’t quote your exact post doesn’t mean that I’m ignoring your argument. If you really need me to quote you and respond, I guess I can do that.Okay to what explicitly? Is this another nothing-burger.
This is just another band-aide excuse to cover the holes in Calvin’s theology very much like the effervescent grace excuse used to cover up the holes in his irresistible grace doctrine in response to the verses that indicate that people can fall from grace and lose their salvation. You still haven’t quoted not one single verse that specifically states that God controls everyone’s actions. The only thing you have are verses referring to God intervening on specific individuals and you’re extrapolating what these verses are actually saying by applying them to everyone.Correct.
Correct.
Incorrect.
I haven’t backpedaled.
Maybe you missed this.
“The difference is that you see God doing nothing as just that…nothing. I see God doing nothing as part of His plan. Sometimes God letting man follow his natural course as a fulfillment of His plan. Other times, as we see throughout scripture, He intervenes. Either way, whatever happens is ultimately God’s decision.”
He is, if He’s not stopping them. It means He has a purpose for what He is actively allowing.
See above.
Can you provide a quote from an official Calvinist document that indicates that we are not puppets? You’re putting that restriction on us according to the OP so your argument should be restricted to the same requirements that you’ve placed on us.And I’ve addressed that. Just read the thread.
Can you provide a quote from an official Calvinist document that indicates that we are not puppets? You’re putting that restriction on us according to the OP so your argument should be restricted to the same requirements that you’ve placed on us.
The "reason" is always to help willing individuals.Okay. So if He doesn’t, He has a reason.
It doesn’t matter what the reason is. He either interferes or He doesn’t. Both are active actions.The "reason" is always to help willing individuals.
Just so I’m clear, if I can provide one single verse that states God controls everyone’s actions, you’ll be convinced?This is just another band-aide excuse to cover the holes in Calvin’s theology very much like the effervescent grace excuse used to cover up the holes in his irresistible grace doctrine in response to the verses that indicate that people can fall from grace and lose their salvation. You still haven’t quoted not one single verse that specifically states that God controls everyone’s actions. The only thing you have are verses referring to God intervening on specific individuals and you’re extrapolating what these verses are actually saying by applying them to everyone.
I think the issue comes down to what’s meant by governed. It doesn’t mean controlling every action of man, as if pulling strings. It does mean to ordain all things that come to pass. And if you read all of chapter 16, not just a couple of paragraphs that you found on the internet, you’ll see that Calvin in no way presupposes that God sits in heaven and directs every movement as a puppet master. He does use plenty of scripture that indicates that God is in complete control, though.Let me show you the argument for how God according to Calvin controls us all like puppets - which would include all manner of forcing. Calvin states that God not only governs our movements, but our wills as well - how is that not puppetry?
“We hold that God is the disposer and ruler of all things, –that from the remotest eternity, according to his own wisdom, He decreed what he was to do, and now by his power executes what he decreed. Hence we maintain, that by His providence, not heaven and earth and inanimate creatures only, but also the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 8)“Creatures are so governed by the secret counsel of God, that nothing happens but what he has knowingly and willingly decreed.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 3)
The above may be shown to back away from Calvin's roughest edges. The bigger question is why does anyone follow Calvin? This is a link to Calvin's most egregious statements: John Calvin Quotes – The Calvinism of John Calvin – Are Calvinists REALLY “Calvinists”?
Some verses to ponder.That is double-talk. To ordain things come to pass when you have all power, is still forcing. No scripture says that God decrees or ordains everything that comes to pass - that is from Calvin.
You may want to reread Job 1-2.The following shows that Calvin's God is a forcer who sits on his throne and commands the devil and people to do evil. Calvin's God is not holy and contradicts James 1:13. According to Calvin, the devil and people cannot even conceive evil unless God commands it.
“The devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how muchsoever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay unless in so far as he commands, that they are not only bound by his fetters but are even forced to do him service” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 11)
God never directed anyone do evil as God does not tempt anyone to sin (James 1:13). All sin comes from rebellion to God's direction.Some verses to ponder.
Man’s steps are ordained by the LORD,
How then can man understand his way?
— Proverbs 20:24
I know, O LORD, that a man’s way is not in himself,
Nor is it in a man who walks to direct his steps.
— Jeremiah 10:23
The plans of the heart belong to man,
But the answer of the tongue is from the LORD.
— Proverbs 16:1
But if he did not lie in wait for him, but God let him fall into his hand, then I will appoint you a place to which he may flee.
— Exodus 21:13
The lot is cast into the lap,
But its every decision is from the LORD.
— Proverbs 16:33
You may want to reread Job 1-2.
YesJust so I’m clear, if I can provide one single verse that states God controls everyone’s actions, you’ll be convinced?
The "reason" is important, because it must be a help to the willing individual. If a person has continuously refused God's help to the point, he would never of his own free will choose to accept God's help, that person can have his free will taken from them and be a disciple of satan.It doesn’t matter what the reason is. He either interferes or He doesn’t. Both are active actions.
God doesn’t need to direct anyone to do evil. He just takes away peace. .God never directed anyone do evil as God does not tempt anyone sin (James 1:13). Evil comes from rebellion to God's direction.
Would you use that same standard for the Trinity?
Once again, can God intervene to stop any evil act at any given time?The "reason" is important, because it must be a help to the willing individual. If a person has continuously refused God's help to the point, he would never of his own free will choose to accept God's help, that person can have his free will taken from them and be a disciple of satan.
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