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The (near) sacrifice of Isaac--it is logical?

JackRT

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I too find this story extremely problematic. As it stands it is one of the ugliest stories in the Bible. As written, if God was testing Abraham then Abraham failed the test. Maybe the angel who stopped the sacrifice was an agnostic or an atheist who was passing by. I think there is a defect in the story -- perhaps some context that is missing. It might be that the biblical manuscript has a copy error.
 
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Tree of Life

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Except this is highly implausible. The story works together as an entire unit. One copy error could not make a dramatic difference in the whole story. It's not just one detail of the story that's disturbing. The entire story is disturbing! Also, there is no textual evidence for any sort of textual variants.
 
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Sanoy

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Mark covered the core of the question so I'll respond to the logical portion.

"Know" in Hebrew is far broader than Know in English. It seems to include "experience" as it is used to describe sexual relations, "Now Adam, knew Eve His wife". "and Cain Knew His wife". The OT is a very ancient text and it needs to be treated well, which means we have to think in the context of an ancient person rather than the modern English that we read it in we we engage it on a higher level of critique.
 
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dale dorsett

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Sketcher

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God foreknew it, but Abraham hadn't had a chance to prove it until the angel had to stop him. And this provided a powerful story about faith and obedience to bless many generations.

I've also heard the passage is a foreshadowing of Jesus's sacrifice. But the circumstances are totally different. Not to mention that Isaac wasn't killed and Jesus was.
The circumstances are different, but that's part of how "types" work in the Old Testament. We have the story, we know the story, and in this way or that it points to Jesus.
BTW: Carravagio's painting in the Uffizi gallery in Florence is the best, and most dramatic, representation of the story. The sheep doesn't have a clue as to what's coming. And the look on Isaac's face is priceless.

View attachment 254670
It's a good one.
 
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JackRT

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Sketcher said:
It's a good one.

It is interesting that, following this terrifying incident, the Bible records no further contact between Abraham and either Isaac or Sarah. Personally I can't blame either one.
 
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Sketcher

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It is interesting that, following this terrifying incident, the Bible records no further contact between Abraham and either Isaac or Sarah. Personally I can't blame either one.
Maybe, but wouldn't there have been an ancient, extra-biblical story to support her leaving him? Checking here, I'm not seeing one. All I'm seeing in relation to the sacrifice of Issac is that she died as a direct reaction to it, but the timing seems off for that to be the case.
 
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Hawkins

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You need to first understand the historical background.

1) Back then it's a common religious practice for the Canaanites to sacrifice their children for the false gods such as Baal. God thus demonstrated through Abraham that if the Canaanites have the faith for the false gods, Abraham has the same if not more for the true God.

2) Finally God uses a goat to take the place of Isaac. This is to tell that a scapegoat will be used instead of human sacrifice to atone for sins.

3) The story actually telling the opposite to Abraham that human sacrifice is not wanted. It's because so that human sacrifice is never a practice in the history of Israel.
 
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jayem

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To whom is this being demonstrated? The text says that God was testing Abraham. Wouldn't God, who is supposedly omniscient, know already that Abraham is faithful and obedient?


If I understand, it sounds like you're saying this legend is a fable. To me, a fable is a fabricated story. It tells of an event that was made-up to teach a lesson. Which in this case, is that God does not demand human sacrifice. Even from a man of such surpassing faith as Abraham. Though it still implies God isn't sure of Abraham's faith. And if this story is only fabulous, then what else in the Bible is made-up? Maybe the creation accounts, and the disobedience of Adam and Eve are also mythic.
 
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RDKirk

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There is a difference between a myth and a fable.
 
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jayem

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There is a difference between a myth and a fable.

True. I was careless with my wording. Though some myths do convey a lesson. In the Pandora myth, she was given the jar (a box in later versions) with instructions from Zeus that it must never be opened. Of course, she couldn't resist seeing what it contained. And when she opened it, she released all the pain, suffering, and hardship into the world. The myth explains why there's misery in our lives. And it also teaches that disobeying the gods has dire consequences. It's the same lesson taught by Adam and Eve eating the forbidden fruit. It's interesting that in both legends, a disobedient woman is the primary responsible party. Which tells me both of these tales were concocted by men.

Sorry for going off-topic.
 
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RDKirk

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No, those two stories don't present the same lesson at all.
 
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PROPHECYKID

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Allow me to just show you something.

When studying the bible, sometimes you have to be aware that certain words from the original translated can be translated different ways and give a better understand. That is why it important to get the consensus of scripture. If 99 verses says the sky is blue, and one verse says the sky is red, the conclusion you should go from, is that the sky is blue.

Having said that let me just show you this verse in the English Standard Version.
The angel said, "Don't kill your son or hurt him in any way. Now I can see that you do respect and obey God. I see that you are ready to kill your son, your only son, for me."

So in reading this verse, in the ESV, it says now I can see. God does know everything, but this really is God recognizing to Abraham what Abraham demonstrated. God is basically making Abraham aware that he was tested and he passed the test. So it does not mean that God didn't know what would happen.
 
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FireDragon76

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There are Jewish midrashic traditions that Abraham actually did sacrifice Isaac.

I don't tend to read stories like this moralistically. In my religious tradition, the story is understood primarily as an allegory or typology of Christ.
 
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Caliban

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If we are like babies to him, why does he torture and kill us?

I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the Lord, do all these things.
( Isaiah 45:7)
 
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FireDragon76

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I

If we are like babies to him, why does he torture and kill us?

I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the Lord, do all these things.
( Isaiah 45:7)

That's understanding that passage in an isolated manner.
 
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Caliban

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That's understanding that passage in an isolated manner.
No it's not. And, it's not out of context. It relates directly to my point and it's connected to the thread. The biblical God claims responsibility for killing humans or the threat of death in the case of Issac. There is no backing out of this.
 
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FireDragon76

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No it's not. And, it's not out of context. It relates directly to my point and it's connected to the thread. The biblical God claims responsibility for killing humans or the threat of death in the case of Issac. There is no backing out of this.

I know that liberal mainline Protestants wouldn't accept that interpretation. God is revealed clearly in Jesus, not in bronze age Hebrew religion. Jesus is the hermeneutic for understanding the Bible.
 
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hedrick

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A straightforward reading of the text says that God didn't know what Abraham was going to do.

There has been a discussion on this topic here: Is God in charge of everything that happens?

We don't know "where" God is. Under some reasonable models he can't, even in principle, know the future, because it isn't determined. I don't believe Biblical statements on God's power and knowledge contradict this. The other thread was based on the passages saying that God changed his mind.

We can dismiss all of these as anthropomorphic statements not meant literally. I'm not convinced. More plausibly, we can say that the OT authors had an earlier and incomplete knowledge of God. But I think it's plausible that they're right, and translating Biblical statements into more abstract terms needs care. It's not unreasonable to say that God knows everything that's knowable, but the future isn't, at least not perfectly.
 
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Caliban

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I know that liberal mainline Protestants wouldn't accept that interpretation. God is revealed clearly in Jesus, not in bronze age Hebrew religion. Jesus is the hermeneutic for understanding the Bible.
Yep, there is always some other way to interpret what the Bible says. Which means there are no right answers. Because the Bible is essentially unclear. Can you really blame people for thinking that this text is merely the work of men with multiple theological needs and not the work of a god?

Your statement conveniently places the Hebrew Bible in a category that is off limits for criticism? Jesus doesn't get to ride off into the sunset unscathed. Almost every doctrine of Hell comes from the teachings of Jesus. The burning...the worm that never dies (Mark 9:48. Not so mean and mild.

Jesus is not a hermeneutic for interpreting the HB/OT. Those texts predate Jesus and in no way do I believe in biblical compatibilism or the inspiration of the scriptures. You will have to meet the arguments of biblical criticism head on without appealing to the miraculous or to progressive revelation.
 
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