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Well now it seems the topic of Gods nature deserves a thread of its own as what we believe about how God created, according to His Word or according to mans theories, does seem to determine Him to be either all powerful or just powerful enough.
The question then is: Do we believe what God says because He is God and is not confined to our naturalistic laws? or Do we believe in God only to the extent that we can understand with our finite minds His methods in how He has created the universe?
Then what makes Him God?
Lucaspa said: That He is powerful enough to do what we consider God able to do.
So what you are saying then is that it is more important what we think God is capable of and not what He has revealed to us through His Word that He is capable of - right?
Now I understand, so that is what makes God, God! It is our labels that we have placed on Him. In other words it is man who created God and not He who created us - right? After all your definition fits quite nicely with the numerous false gods man has made and worshipped throughout his existence they were just powerful enough gods of mans own making. I wonder, what ever became or will become of such gods or those who worshipped them?
Is his omnipotence clearly seen in the process of evolution or in an instantaneous creation? But according to scripture now and not your personal views. Show me where God is nothing less than infinite in all capacities.
God is not omnipresent.
So that is your conclusion right? Gathered from the far reaches of the universe where you have obviously been and can confirm that God is not there - right? Are we talking about the same God here?
The problem here is that you are trying too hard to fit God into terms that you can understand and as a result have limited Him to the very definitions you have made and come to believe Him to be rather than allow Him to reveal Himself to you who He really is! Why not for once take God on His word?
Remember, in quantum mechanics observation collapses the wave function of probabilities. If God were omnipresent there would be no incoherence -- no place where Schroedinger's Cat is both dead and alive. Yet the Cat is both dead and alive.
So God is not omnipresent:
That may hold true for us mortals who are governed by such laws, but is God just powerful enough that He is limited by those very same laws? The laws which He himself have made?
Granted, I am by no means a quantum physicist, but from what I understand in classical probability theory the collapse of a probability wave function has no real physical significance. What really collapses is our conclusions about what is happening physically because there is not sufficient experimental evidence that the external world will be affected in any way.
To conclude that it does presumes that we already posses a full understand of this phenomenon and have experimented extensively to confirm it. After all what is of importance is that the mathematics must compute probabilities which conform to experimental observation - not simply its use as the primary reality.
But that aside it is not mans assumptions of what he does not know or will come to fully understand that keeps him from accepting what scripture says about Gods omni-nature. It is the fallacious extrapolations from his limited understanding of Gods creation that keeps God from truly revealing Himself to those who wish to know Him. In other word because we already believe we know more about God than God Himself has told us. Time and time again this shows nothing more than the reluctance to submit to Gods sovereignty.
Please show me the Bible verses that says God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. I submit that these are human theories about God.
So we dont believe in the same God after all do we? Everyone take note! So which god do you worship lucaspa? Let me guess the god of evolution, right? But lets look at scripture for greater enlightenment as you requested.
Yes, the Bible paints a picture of VERY powerful, knowing, and present entity. But that does not mean God is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient. That is your extrapolation from what the text says.
Not from the text, but from spiritual revelation. A belief in Gods word is only a beginning it is an uncompromised faith in the wholesomeness of Gods word that He will reveal to us His nature. It is only when we surrender ourselves totally to Christ that we will understand the true nature of God.
The difference is that powerful beyond comprehension doesnt make one a god, it just makes them a tyrant
Why?
Lets do an illustration, as human beings, we are powerful beyond the comprehension of lesser animals because we have in ourselves the capability to destroy any and all things we see fit, and yet that does not make us gods, it simply means that we have capabilities that are beyond the comprehension of lesser creatures.
Much so if God were simply powerful beyond our understanding, what will become of Him when we finally understand the source of His power? Or when we are able to do the things He does? After all we are beginning to do exactly that! Will we then become as gods ourselves? Who then will worship or pay homage to us when we have already destroyed everything getting there including ourselves.
But we, according to scripture, are Sons of God - in our own little way perhaps, but we often forget the other half, we are also devils, in that instead of choosing all that is good (God), we have instead chosen that which is the very opposite!
like the old saying absolute power corrupts absolutely. Now is God absolutely corrupt because He has absolute power?
According to omnipotence, that is exactly what He is. However, remember that this saying applies to humans. No one said it applied to God. Amazing that you would think it applied to God.
No one said that God is anything of the sort, it was simply a question. Perhaps that is why He is God and we are not? So where does absolute power stop, since God is not omnipotent as you believe him not to be where do we draw the line as God or tyrant? If He was simply a powerful enough being, how does He maintain His composure when His creation offends Him? Or perhaps when He tires of our hunger for wickedness and destruction - what would become of us? Why must we submit to Him if He is simply a powerful enough being? If He is not powerful beyond all our comprehension than he would be a being who is simply more powerful than we are and therefore is not God but only a tyrant who threatens to torture those who do not wish to accept Him.
Doubters of Gods omnipotence said: And if God is all-powerful, can he create a rock that even He cannot lift?
Gee I dont know, could this be on the same line of thought as if God is all powerful then can he make himself to not exist? So would He be all powerful then if He couldnt lift a rock that He created? Would He even be God then if he couldn't?
Nice handwaving, but you still can't get around the fact that God can't be omnipotent.
Well now lets put our hands to much better use and open up our Bible and see where it says God is nothing less than omnipotent. As pointed above the word of God does say something quite different so there is no getting around anything.
We say that yes, God would still be God. It is omnipotence that we are discarding, not God.
I understand now, but really lucaspa just because you choose to place God in a bottle doesnt mean that all of us believe in that same god. But I guess believing in the god of evolution does do that it just makes God as powerful as is needed after all he is restricted to the very laws he created right? It is obvious the limitation you have placed on God is your own doing and only comes as a result of a belief in the god of an old earth.
And because He is powerful beyond all comprehension there are some things that even He cant do like contradict Himself, kill himself, lie, be unholy, learn anything new, change and etc.
Well then, you have just shown that God isn't omnipotent, because you believe God can't contradict Himself, lie, or be unholy.
Not what I came up all on my own to believe in, but what His word tells me so, for have you not read:
So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:17
However, the Bible is clear that God has learned new things and changed.
You do know that there is a difference between changing ones mind and changing ones being dont you? Can God really learn anything new? After all He is omniscient, but you dont believe He is, so I suppose you would say that. Lets bring those assumed new things on the table so we can discuss?
At least changed His mind upon occasion. (hint: look up David and Amelekites and Acts 9)
What about David and the Amalekites? And what does Acts 9 have anything to do with God changing or learning? Another doubt of Gods power I presume? Again lets bring up the specific points shall we instead of simply making assertions.
The question then is: Do we believe what God says because He is God and is not confined to our naturalistic laws? or Do we believe in God only to the extent that we can understand with our finite minds His methods in how He has created the universe?
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Then what makes Him God?
Lucaspa said: That He is powerful enough to do what we consider God able to do.
So what you are saying then is that it is more important what we think God is capable of and not what He has revealed to us through His Word that He is capable of - right?
Now I understand, so that is what makes God, God! It is our labels that we have placed on Him. In other words it is man who created God and not He who created us - right? After all your definition fits quite nicely with the numerous false gods man has made and worshipped throughout his existence they were just powerful enough gods of mans own making. I wonder, what ever became or will become of such gods or those who worshipped them?
Is his omnipotence clearly seen in the process of evolution or in an instantaneous creation? But according to scripture now and not your personal views. Show me where God is nothing less than infinite in all capacities.
God is not omnipresent.
So that is your conclusion right? Gathered from the far reaches of the universe where you have obviously been and can confirm that God is not there - right? Are we talking about the same God here?
The problem here is that you are trying too hard to fit God into terms that you can understand and as a result have limited Him to the very definitions you have made and come to believe Him to be rather than allow Him to reveal Himself to you who He really is! Why not for once take God on His word?
Remember, in quantum mechanics observation collapses the wave function of probabilities. If God were omnipresent there would be no incoherence -- no place where Schroedinger's Cat is both dead and alive. Yet the Cat is both dead and alive.
So God is not omnipresent:
That may hold true for us mortals who are governed by such laws, but is God just powerful enough that He is limited by those very same laws? The laws which He himself have made?
Granted, I am by no means a quantum physicist, but from what I understand in classical probability theory the collapse of a probability wave function has no real physical significance. What really collapses is our conclusions about what is happening physically because there is not sufficient experimental evidence that the external world will be affected in any way.
To conclude that it does presumes that we already posses a full understand of this phenomenon and have experimented extensively to confirm it. After all what is of importance is that the mathematics must compute probabilities which conform to experimental observation - not simply its use as the primary reality.
But that aside it is not mans assumptions of what he does not know or will come to fully understand that keeps him from accepting what scripture says about Gods omni-nature. It is the fallacious extrapolations from his limited understanding of Gods creation that keeps God from truly revealing Himself to those who wish to know Him. In other word because we already believe we know more about God than God Himself has told us. Time and time again this shows nothing more than the reluctance to submit to Gods sovereignty.
Please show me the Bible verses that says God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. I submit that these are human theories about God.
So we dont believe in the same God after all do we? Everyone take note! So which god do you worship lucaspa? Let me guess the god of evolution, right? But lets look at scripture for greater enlightenment as you requested.
the Bible does paint a very clear picture of God's incomprehensible capabilities.
Yes, the Bible paints a picture of VERY powerful, knowing, and present entity. But that does not mean God is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient. That is your extrapolation from what the text says.
Not from the text, but from spiritual revelation. A belief in Gods word is only a beginning it is an uncompromised faith in the wholesomeness of Gods word that He will reveal to us His nature. It is only when we surrender ourselves totally to Christ that we will understand the true nature of God.
The difference is that powerful beyond comprehension doesnt make one a god, it just makes them a tyrant
Why?
Lets do an illustration, as human beings, we are powerful beyond the comprehension of lesser animals because we have in ourselves the capability to destroy any and all things we see fit, and yet that does not make us gods, it simply means that we have capabilities that are beyond the comprehension of lesser creatures.
Much so if God were simply powerful beyond our understanding, what will become of Him when we finally understand the source of His power? Or when we are able to do the things He does? After all we are beginning to do exactly that! Will we then become as gods ourselves? Who then will worship or pay homage to us when we have already destroyed everything getting there including ourselves.
But we, according to scripture, are Sons of God - in our own little way perhaps, but we often forget the other half, we are also devils, in that instead of choosing all that is good (God), we have instead chosen that which is the very opposite!
like the old saying absolute power corrupts absolutely. Now is God absolutely corrupt because He has absolute power?
According to omnipotence, that is exactly what He is. However, remember that this saying applies to humans. No one said it applied to God. Amazing that you would think it applied to God.
No one said that God is anything of the sort, it was simply a question. Perhaps that is why He is God and we are not? So where does absolute power stop, since God is not omnipotent as you believe him not to be where do we draw the line as God or tyrant? If He was simply a powerful enough being, how does He maintain His composure when His creation offends Him? Or perhaps when He tires of our hunger for wickedness and destruction - what would become of us? Why must we submit to Him if He is simply a powerful enough being? If He is not powerful beyond all our comprehension than he would be a being who is simply more powerful than we are and therefore is not God but only a tyrant who threatens to torture those who do not wish to accept Him.
Doubters of Gods omnipotence said: And if God is all-powerful, can he create a rock that even He cannot lift?
Gee I dont know, could this be on the same line of thought as if God is all powerful then can he make himself to not exist? So would He be all powerful then if He couldnt lift a rock that He created? Would He even be God then if he couldn't?
Nice handwaving, but you still can't get around the fact that God can't be omnipotent.
Well now lets put our hands to much better use and open up our Bible and see where it says God is nothing less than omnipotent. As pointed above the word of God does say something quite different so there is no getting around anything.
We say that yes, God would still be God. It is omnipotence that we are discarding, not God.
I understand now, but really lucaspa just because you choose to place God in a bottle doesnt mean that all of us believe in that same god. But I guess believing in the god of evolution does do that it just makes God as powerful as is needed after all he is restricted to the very laws he created right? It is obvious the limitation you have placed on God is your own doing and only comes as a result of a belief in the god of an old earth.
And because He is powerful beyond all comprehension there are some things that even He cant do like contradict Himself, kill himself, lie, be unholy, learn anything new, change and etc.
Well then, you have just shown that God isn't omnipotent, because you believe God can't contradict Himself, lie, or be unholy.
Not what I came up all on my own to believe in, but what His word tells me so, for have you not read:
So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:17
However, the Bible is clear that God has learned new things and changed.
You do know that there is a difference between changing ones mind and changing ones being dont you? Can God really learn anything new? After all He is omniscient, but you dont believe He is, so I suppose you would say that. Lets bring those assumed new things on the table so we can discuss?
At least changed His mind upon occasion. (hint: look up David and Amelekites and Acts 9)
What about David and the Amalekites? And what does Acts 9 have anything to do with God changing or learning? Another doubt of Gods power I presume? Again lets bring up the specific points shall we instead of simply making assertions.
