O
OntheDL
Guest
Lets have a discussion on this subject here. Lets look at 3 areas: the bible, the SOP and the sanctuary.
-
Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
O
OntheDL
Guest
1. The bible supports the sinful human nature of Christ.
Galatians 4:4 But when the fullness of time was come, God sent forth His Son, made of a woman, made under the law.
Romans 1: oncerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
Hebrews 2:16 For verily He took not on Him the nature of angels; but He took on Him the seed of Abraham.
Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh."
1 Timothy 3:16. And without controversy, great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh!
Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise took part of the same.
Philippians 2
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an High Priest which cannot be touched with the feelings of our infirmities, but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Hebrews 5
2 Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity.
...
7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Notice the verse we just read, He learned obedience. That means He didn't naturally obey.
It is important to note that Christ had the strength of passion for sin. But He did not have the passion.
1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is the spirit of antichrist.
Galatians 4:4 But when the fullness of time was come, God sent forth His Son, made of a woman, made under the law.
Romans 1: oncerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
Hebrews 2:16 For verily He took not on Him the nature of angels; but He took on Him the seed of Abraham.
Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh."
1 Timothy 3:16. And without controversy, great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh!
Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise took part of the same.
Philippians 2
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an High Priest which cannot be touched with the feelings of our infirmities, but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Hebrews 5
2 Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity.
...
7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Notice the verse we just read, He learned obedience. That means He didn't naturally obey.
It is important to note that Christ had the strength of passion for sin. But He did not have the passion.
1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is the spirit of antichrist.
Upvote
0
honorthesabbath
Senior Veteran
- Aug 10, 2005
- 4,067
- 78
- 76
- Faith
- SDA
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- US-Constitution
DL--I have struggled with this doctrine for ever. I still cannot make up my mind what the bible actually teaches on His nature.
I have often wondered that if Christ didn't have a fallen nature such as ours--then He could not have understood temptation. And then we have this verse....
Jas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
And then this one.....
Joh 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
So then if Christ indeed did have a fallen nature--satan would have found something in Christ to truly tempt Him with.
So I'm glad you started this thread--hopefully the mystery will be solved. For me anyway--lol.
I have often wondered that if Christ didn't have a fallen nature such as ours--then He could not have understood temptation. And then we have this verse....
Jas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
And then this one.....
Joh 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
So then if Christ indeed did have a fallen nature--satan would have found something in Christ to truly tempt Him with.
So I'm glad you started this thread--hopefully the mystery will be solved. For me anyway--lol.
Upvote
0
O
OntheDL
Guest
Jesus is fully divine and fully human. While His divinity could not be tempted, His humanity could. It follows along the same question which part of Him died on the cross: the human or the divine?
Jesus said to Peter "satan desires to have you and sift you as wheat but I have prayed for you that your faith fail not'. Satan wants to find faults to claim us.
As Jesus walked out of the upper room, Satan lurked in the shadow, Christ exposed his presence "the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me".
"Though he had all the strength of the passion of humanity, never did he yield to temptation to do that which was not pure and elevating and ennobling." ST, Nov 21, 1892.
In another word, He had all the strength of the passion of sin, but never had (indulged and dwelled in) the passion.
The bible says he "was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin". When He was tempted "Who in the days of his flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto Him that was able to save Him from death". Jesus depended on not His own divinity, but the Father's power to overcome His human nature: thus leaving us an example.
Upvote
0
He was exactly like we are in his humanity, fully human, yet then in the mystery of God, fully divine. But just like we can have the Spirit in us and we in Spirit which wipes the inclination to sin, and makes us dead to sin and ungodly desires, Christ in the flesh or fully human, had no inclination to sin but could be tempted at all points...
Upvote
0
O
OntheDL
Guest
The better question is did Jesus have Adam's nature BEFORE or AFTER the fall?
Upvote
0
Bourbaki
Visiting Seventh-day Millerite
- Sep 9, 2007
- 427
- 1
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- SDA
- Marital Status
- Private
- Politics
- US-Green
Upvote
0
O
OntheDL
Guest
Red,
Adam's nature before the fall was sinless, after was sinful. He couldn't have Adam's nature after the fall if He had a sinless nature.
Upvote
0
Adam had the damage of sin or carnal nature from the fall, but that doesnt mean Adam could not from that point be a just righteous man of God, such as job, Abraham, Noah and Enoch.
There is nothing in scripture that says that Adam went on to become a sinful man, in fact SOP says Seth and Enoch where able to keep from the sin of the world.
Upvote
0
O
OntheDL
Guest
You are arguing on technicality, Red. The bible say all HAVE sinned. Paul wrote in Romans 7 that his body naturally served sin.
Adam before the fall while could be tempted but did not suffer the infimity of sin. If Adam didn't become a sinful man after the fall, he would not have needed a savior to die in his place.
Upvote
0
So how did Enoch walk with God if he was a 'sinful man'.....it is because we can, with the divine, be just and upright like Enoch, Job, Abraham, Noah, etc.....
Upvote
0
O
OntheDL
Guest
So how did Enoch walk with God if he was a 'sinful man'.....it is because we can, with the divine, be just and upright like Enoch, Job, Abraham, Noah, etc.....
Red,
It's about overcoming. Overcome the sinful nature with the divine power. Humanity that is symbolized in the sanctuary by the perishable word is transformed into the solid gold by the trial of fire.
Abraham was counted for righteousness because he believed, not because he never sinned.
Upvote
0
O
OntheDL
Guest
So how did Enoch walk with God if he was a 'sinful man'.....it is because we can, with the divine, be just and upright like Enoch, Job, Abraham, Noah, etc.....
How could a sinful man walk with God?
Red, why don't you study the sanctuary? This will become exceedingly clear with the issues of justification and sanctification.
Upvote
0
Can you put it in the Traditional Seventh-day Adventists so I can go over it step by step, I want to go through it carefully and see what you have on it.
Upvote
0
honorthesabbath
Senior Veteran
- Aug 10, 2005
- 4,067
- 78
- 76
- Faith
- SDA
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- US-Constitution
HI Bourbaki- I just finished reading the above essay and I must sat that it makes sense--at least right now to me. I hadn't considered before that indeed Christ could have had two natures. Very interesting. But I'm going to keep all options open for the Holy Spirit's leading. Thanks again.
Upvote
0
OK, I didnt see this post. The problem is how you are using the word 'sinful', we are born in sin because of the fall but we can overcome sin through divine help, thus at that point we are no longer 'sinful'. We still sinned in our lives, but now seen as just and upright men of God.
The divine helps man to be just and upright like Enoch, Job, Abraham, Noah, etc.. They are not without a 'sin' in their lives as all have sinned, but when the divine finishess its work they are 'cleansed of sin' or their hearts and minds are cleansed and are righteous at that point in their spiritual life. I am not saying that they never sinned, I am saying they reached a point in their walk with God in which they no longer desired to sin, the inclination to sin was no longer within them as at that point in their walk the divine was in them and they in the divine.
I have met many who are just and upright like Enoch, Job, Abraham, Noah, etc.. and they are sealed of God, evil cannot take them. I always looked at them and wondered 'How do they do it', and now I understand, it was the Holy Spirit that sealed them, it was in them and they in the Spirit. Christ had the Father in Him and He in the Father from the start, which somehow was equivalent to the Holy Spirit being within us, so Jesus had no inclination to sin.
John 10:38
But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
Thus we have the same chance as Jesus Christ, He had no advantage over us when it came to sin, He was tempted in all points as we are.The Spirit comes in us and we in the Spirit, and we are sealed.....
- Ephesians 1:13
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Ephesians 1:12-14 (in Context) Ephesians 1 (Whole Chapter) - Ephesians 4:30
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Upvote
0
O
OntheDL
Guest
Let me try this and see if it makes sense...
1. Adam before the fall: does not suffer the infirmity of sin, he naturally subscribed to the principle of God, therefore Adam before the fall did not need a savior.
2. Adam after the fall: suffers the infirmity of sin, he naturally subscribed to the principle of sin, therefore Adam after the fall needed a savior.
You can not say Christ' took the nature of Adam before or after the fall. The two are diametrically opposed to each other. You must pick one.
According to the bible, Jesus suffered all the infirmity that we do and He was made according to the flesh. In the day of His flesh, when He was tempted, He cried out to God for deliverance. If He had the sinless human nature, He would not have needed to do that. In fact, if He had sinless nature, He could not have experience what we experience and thus leaving us an example. And He could not have saved us if He had sinless nature.
Sinful nature does not necessarily lead to sinful life. I agree with you, with the divine help, we could live a sinless life. That's why Christ left an example for us.
Lastly, no man alive on this earth has been sealed by the holy spirit yet. The sealing will take place just before the close of probation.
No one ever lived while still alive was inmune to temptation. Meaning if anyone has ever been sealed it took place at the end of their christian walk. This is the end of their life on earth.
You can see this is the case with Christ. The bible says He overcame and learned obedience and was perfected through obedience onto death.
Upvote
0
Which one? The sanctuary study? It's been in the TSDA forum for over a year.
We went over the issue during our Sabbath 'potluck' theology discussion group and how it relates to the sanctuary, and I asked one of to come to the site and post on the issue here or start a new thread for it, so we could go over it. If not, could you bring up the pertinent sections of your sanctuary study.
Christ had the human nature of Adam after the fall, but did not have the carnal mind, from where the inclination to sin comes, as that was dead to ungodly desires. Now how that was done if by the Father in Him and He in the Father, I think is the question remaining.
Upvote
0
Similar threads
