The Name

[Stravinsk]

I have few questions for the Messianic Jews, and, if they so choose - non Messianic Jews may answer as well:

The Prohibition on using the Creator's name and in it's place:

Hashem
G-d
L-rd
Adonai

Etc.

Is based on a Torah teaching - or is based on a Torah teaching *interpreted* through a Rabbinic teaching?



2) Do any of you actually know it? The correct pronunciation, I mean.

If so - why take care not to spell out "G-d" or "L-rd" as if it's a proper name instead of a title? As these are indeed titles - why not apply it to "Hashem, Adonai, The Almighty, The Creator, Master of the Universe" or any other title that could be used as a reference?

3) The prophets, nor Messiah did not seem to have any problem using the proper name for the Creator - spoke that name regularly - and wrote it down.

Is there anywhere in Torah where it says that a prophet or priest, or lawgiver or Judge, or King of Israel - is privileged to use it above the common man?

4)Numerous passages within the Hebrew Writings make mention of calling on the Name - praising His name, salvation in His name.

I've noticed in older versions of the Bible - we still see remnants of the name- until they are replaced by "Lord". It seems the vast majority of Christians and Jews do not want to use it - nor do they want it to be known.

I'm curious why.

 

[bertolt]

Well, the Name is considered to represent the Most High. I don't know if the Name itself is considered holy, or if it's venerated because it represents God, in all honesty.

Because it's holy (assuming it is?), it's not used in the presence of those who might attempt to desecrate it. It's a matter of respect.

I can't speak to practices outside of my family, but the actual pronunciation of the Name is something I've heard and used once, and because I have three sons, I will speak it three more times in my lifetime (to tell them).

I dunno. It's a personal prohibition for me - the Name is not more important or holy than the One it represents, but to me it isn't something I *can* use.

 

[Yahudim]

I have few questions for the Messianic Jews, and, if they so choose - non Messianic Jews may answer as well:

The Prohibition on using the Creator's name and in it's place:

Hashem
G-d
L-rd
Adonai

Etc.

Is based on a Torah teaching - or is based on a Torah teaching *interpreted* through a Rabbinic teaching?



2) Do any of you actually know it? The correct pronunciation, I mean.

If so - why take care not to spell out "G-d" or "L-rd" as if it's a proper name instead of a title? As these are indeed titles - why not apply it to "Hashem, Adonai, The Almighty, The Creator, Master of the Universe" or any other title that could be used as a reference?

3) The prophets, nor Messiah did not seem to have any problem using the proper name for the Creator - spoke that name regularly - and wrote it down.

Is there anywhere in Torah where it says that a prophet or priest, or lawgiver or Judge, or King of Israel - is privileged to use it above the common man?

4)Numerous passages within the Hebrew Writings make mention of calling on the Name - praising His name, salvation in His name.

I've noticed in older versions of the Bible - we still see remnants of the name- until they are replaced by "Lord". It seems the vast majority of Christians and Jews do not want to use it - nor do they want it to be known.

I'm curious why.

Hey Bro,

There is not a prohibition upon calling upon His name. In fact, we are instructed to call on His name in order to be saved. The prohibition of using the NAME is a tradition of man that came into being after the Babylonian captivity. Be sure and read the context carefully. It was prophesied here:

Jer 44:1 The word that came to Jeremiah concerning all the Jews which dwell in the land of Egypt, which dwell at Migdol, and at Tahpanhes, and at Noph, and in the country of Pathros, saying,
Jer 44:2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Ye have seen all the evil that I have brought upon Jerusalem, and upon all the cities of Judah; and, behold, this day they are a desolation, and no man dwelleth therein,
Jer 44:3 Because of their wickedness which they have committed to provoke me to anger, in that they went to burn incense, and to serve other gods, whom they knew not, neither they, ye, nor your fathers.
Jer 44:4 Howbeit I sent unto you all my servants the prophets, rising early and sending them, saying, Oh, do not this abominable thing that I hate.
Jer 44:5 But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear to turn from their wickedness, to burn no incense unto other gods.
Jer 44:6 Wherefore my fury and mine anger was poured forth, and was kindled in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem; and they are wasted and desolate, as at this day.
Jer 44:7 Therefore now thus saith the LORD, the God of hosts, the God of Israel; Wherefore commit ye this great evil against your souls, to cut off from you man and woman, child and suckling, out of Judah, to leave you none to remain;
Jer 44:8 In that ye provoke me unto wrath with the works of your hands, burning incense unto other gods in the land of Egypt, whither ye be gone to dwell, that ye might cut yourselves off, and that ye might be a curse and a reproach among all the nations of the earth?
Jer 44:9 Have ye forgotten the wickedness of your fathers, and the wickedness of the kings of Judah, and the wickedness of their wives, and your own wickedness, and the wickedness of your wives, which they have committed in the land of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem?
Jer 44:10 They are not humbled even unto this day, neither have they feared, nor walked in my law, nor in my statutes, that I set before you and before your fathers.
Jer 44:11 Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will set my face against you for evil, and to cut off all Judah.
Jer 44:12 And I will take the remnant of Judah, that have set their faces to go into the land of Egypt to sojourn there, and they shall all be consumed, and fall in the land of Egypt; they shall even be consumed by the sword and by the famine: they shall die, from the least even unto the greatest, by the sword and by the famine: and they shall be an execration, and an astonishment, and a curse, and a reproach.
Jer 44:13 For I will punish them that dwell in the land of Egypt, as I have punished Jerusalem, by the sword, by the famine, and by the pestilence:
Jer 44:14 So that none of the remnant of Judah, which are gone into the land of Egypt to sojourn there, shall escape or remain, that they should return into the land of Judah, to the which they have a desire to return to dwell there: for none shall return but such as shall escape.
Jer 44:15 Then all the men which knew that their wives had burned incense unto other gods, and all the women that stood by, a great multitude, even all the people that dwelt in the land of Egypt, in Pathros, answered Jeremiah, saying,
Jer 44:16 As for the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the LORD, we will not hearken unto thee.
Jer 44:17 But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.
Jer 44:18 But since we left off to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, we have wanted all things, and have been consumed by the sword and by the famine.
Jer 44:19 And when we burned incense to the queen of heaven, and poured out drink offerings unto her, did we make her cakes to worship her, and pour out drink offerings unto her, without our men?
Jer 44:20 Then Jeremiah said unto all the people, to the men, and to the women, and to all the people which had given him that answer, saying,
Jer 44:21 The incense that ye burned in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem, ye, and your fathers, your kings, and your princes, and the people of the land, did not the LORD remember them, and came it not into his mind?
Jer 44:22 So that the LORD could no longer bear, because of the evil of your doings, and because of the abominations which ye have committed; therefore is your land a desolation, and an astonishment, and a curse, without an inhabitant, as at this day.
Jer 44:23 Because ye have burned incense, and because ye have sinned against the LORD, and have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, nor walked in his law, nor in his statutes, nor in his testimonies; therefore this evil is happened unto you, as at this day.
Jer 44:24 Moreover Jeremiah said unto all the people, and to all the women, Hear the word of the LORD, all Judah that are in the land of Egypt:
Jer 44:25 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, saying; Ye and your wives have both spoken with your mouths, and fulfilled with your hand, saying, We will surely perform our vows that we have vowed, to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her: ye will surely accomplish your vows, and surely perform your vows.
Jer 44:26 Therefore hear ye the word of the LORD, all Judah that dwell in the land of Egypt; Behold, I have sworn by my great name, saith the LORD, that my name shall no more be named in the mouth of any man of Judah in all the land of Egypt, saying, The Lord GOD liveth.
Jer 44:27 Behold, I will watch over them for evil, and not for good: and all the men of Judah that are in the land of Egypt shall be consumed by the sword and by the famine, until there be an end of them.
Jer 44:28 Yet a small number that escape the sword shall return out of the land of Egypt into the land of Judah, and all the remnant of Judah, that are gone into the land of Egypt to sojourn there, shall know whose words shall stand, mine, or theirs.
Jer 44:29 And this shall be a sign unto you, saith the LORD, that I will punish you in this place, that ye may know that my words shall surely stand against you for evil:
Jer 44:30 Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will give Pharaohhophra king of Egypt into the hand of his enemies, and into the hand of them that seek his life; as I gave Zedekiah king of Judah into the hand of Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, his enemy, and that sought his life.

It was the remnant of this little expedition that ended up back in Jerusalem. It was their tradition that they imposed on the Jews returning from exile.

 

[yedida]

There's that and I have also been taught that it is to keep from making a rash vow before Hashem as well, since Hashem expects ALL vows whether for good or for evil to be fulfilled if vowed in His name.
I take the incident of Hashem putting a deep sleep on Abraham as He cut the unilateral covenant with him and walked between the animal pieces by Himself. I see no other reason that Abraham should have not been able to just sit and watch if it weren't for the fact that I doubt any human could keep from making promises to God for doing such a thing for him (promises that I'm sure no one human being could ever completely keep, so off to sleep with you young man while Hashem attends to the business at hand).

 

[yonah_mishael]

Well, the Name is considered to represent the Most High. I don't know if the Name itself is considered holy, or if it's venerated because it represents God, in all honesty.

Because it's holy (assuming it is?), it's not used in the presence of those who might attempt to desecrate it. It's a matter of respect.

I can't speak to practices outside of my family, but the actual pronunciation of the Name is something I've heard and used once, and because I have three sons, I will speak it three more times in my lifetime (to tell them).

I dunno. It's a personal prohibition for me - the Name is not more important or holy than the One it represents, but to me it isn't something I *can* use.

I, for one, am curious how it is that you have heard it. From whom? For what purpose? How do you know it was the right pronunciation? Where did you get that idea? Just wondering.

 

[Qnts2]

I have few questions for the Messianic Jews, and, if they so choose - non Messianic Jews may answer as well:

The Prohibition on using the Creator's name and in it's place:

Hashem
G-d
L-rd
Adonai

Etc.

Is based on a Torah teaching - or is based on a Torah teaching *interpreted* through a Rabbinic teaching?



2) Do any of you actually know it? The correct pronunciation, I mean.

If so - why take care not to spell out "G-d" or "L-rd" as if it's a proper name instead of a title? As these are indeed titles - why not apply it to "Hashem, Adonai, The Almighty, The Creator, Master of the Universe" or any other title that could be used as a reference?

3) The prophets, nor Messiah did not seem to have any problem using the proper name for the Creator - spoke that name regularly - and wrote it down.

Is there anywhere in Torah where it says that a prophet or priest, or lawgiver or Judge, or King of Israel - is privileged to use it above the common man?

4)Numerous passages within the Hebrew Writings make mention of calling on the Name - praising His name, salvation in His name.

I've noticed in older versions of the Bible - we still see remnants of the name- until they are replaced by "Lord". It seems the vast majority of Christians and Jews do not want to use it - nor do they want it to be known.

I'm curious why.

Just adding to what has already been said.

Because the Most Holy Name of God is treated with high respect, written material which contains the Holy Name is treated with high respect when the written material must be disposed of due to wear.

The Name is not written in standard correspondence. In it's place, L-rd or G-d, or HaShem might be written in the place of The Name. That way, a person won't accidently treat the material as just common writing and dispose of it in a less the respectful manner.

 

[yedida]

On you question #2, I don't personally think that the pronunciation is just 2 sylables (sp?). Lately I've been hearing that the old KJV pronunciation is quite possibly the correct one, but I'd venture to begin it with a "Y" rather than a "J" as there wasn't nor isn't a "J" in the Hebrew language. And, personally, though I don't particularly use the KJV, I'm inclined to go with that pronunciation if I were going to use it (and I do sometimes, but only when saying prayers or blessings).
Don't quote me on any of this

 

[yonah_mishael]

"Jehovah" is certainly not original. It cannot explain the appearance of hirik on the vav in many places.

 

[yedida]

"Jehovah" is certainly not original. It cannot explain the appearance of hirik on the vav in many places.

No, I don't think that's the actual name but I think it might not be too far off, at least among the different pronunciations that we've heard of to choose from.
That's why I said to not quote me. I'm just repeating what I've heard and making a judgement with what information that we have.
Except for sometimes in prayer or blessing, I never even try to say the name. I'm sure He knows I'm talking to Him when I call Him Lord, or Adonai, or speak of Him as Hashem or use the other titles that belong to Him.

 

[yonah_mishael]

Except for sometimes in prayer or blessing, I never even try to say the name. I'm sure He knows I'm talking to Him when I call Him Lord, or Adonai, or speak of Him as Hashem or use the other titles that belong to Him.

Just curious (again), what do you mean by "except for sometimes in prayer or blessing"? What exactly do you say, if you could spell it out phonetically?

 

[yedida]

Just curious (again), what do you mean by "except for sometimes in prayer or blessing"? What exactly do you say, if you could spell it out phonetically?

When I feel "compelled" to use the Name (which is rare), the pronunciation that I tend to use would be "Y'haveh."

 

[Henaynei]

In prayer and study, when it seems necessary, I pronounce the Hebrew consonants, i.e., I spell it

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

 

[Stravinsk]

Thank you all for replying.

Hoping some of you might tackle the other questions in my OP besides the main one.

 

[Henaynei]

Thank you all for replying.

Hoping some of you might tackle the other questions in my OP besides the main one.

Honestly, we've beaten this horse to the finish line and back more times than we can count.
If you do a search in our forum you will find numerous threads and posts where your questions and many others on this subject have been discussed, answered and rehashed numerous times.

If you are truly looking for answers to your questions that is the best way to go.

On the other hand, if our answers are not that which you are trying to stir up...

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

 

[pat34lee]

Thank you all for replying.

Hoping some of you might tackle the other questions in my OP besides the main one.

The other questions seem to tie in with why the name was abandoned. The best guess is that they picked up that habit during the Babylonian exile.

"The ineffability of divine names was on old idea in Egypt...
the name of Osiris himself was said to be ineffable...the name Marduk of Babylon was also declared ineffable. The Greeks avoided the names of their deities and preferred to call them by the titles Kurios and Theos."
-The Final Reformation By Dr. Koster; pp. 54 and 112
​

http://pronouncingthename.xanga.com/703255078/item/

 

[Stravinsk]

Honestly, we've beaten this horse to the finish line and back more times than we can count.
If you do a search in our forum you will find numerous threads and posts where your questions and many others on this subject have been discussed, answered and rehashed numerous times.

If you are truly looking for answers to your questions that is the best way to go.

On the other hand, if our answers are not that which you are trying to stir up...

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

Not trying to "stir anything up" - I'll search this forum, as you suggest - unless you have some handy links ready. Thank you.

 

[Yahudim]

Honestly, we've beaten this horse to the finish line and back more times than we can count.
If you do a search in our forum you will find numerous threads and posts where your questions and many others on this subject have been discussed, answered and rehashed numerous times.

If you are truly looking for answers to your questions that is the best way to go.

On the other hand, if our answers are not that which you are trying to stir up...

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

You should clear your inbox.

 

[ananda]

I pronounce the Hebrew consonants, i.e., I spell it

I do that too sometimes

 

[Henaynei]

Not trying to "stir anything up" - I'll search this forum, as you suggest - unless you have some handy links ready. Thank you.

I'm not the link maven here, but several other members are very good at it and may be able to help you out if you have trouble finding the information. You can start with our stickies - it is a good place to start.

I'm blessed that you are not trying to "stir anything up." It rather frequently happens here and we are a tad hand shy. Please forgive me, if I caused you any discomfort.

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

 

[Stravinsk]

I understand, don't sweat it Henaynei