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In what way does it warn us? I mean does it say "Don't take this next passage literally"? or does it leave it up to our own discernment?The Bible almost always alerts us, either beforehand or afterwards, when something isn't literal.
Examples? I would like to know how to discern these things. I mostly (well almost always) go by The Churches interpretation assuming I will get the best interpretation from the Apostolic Succession. Others take their interpretation from modern people who used a traslation of a translation from a Church that rejected what parts of the Apostolic Succession that they didn't personally agree with. Who is there to trust when it comes to the discernment of scripture?The Bible almost always alerts us, either beforehand or afterwards, when something isn't literal.
In what way does it warn us? I mean does it say "Don't take this next passage literally"? or does it leave it up to our own discernment?
What do you believe is the difference?So you go with transubstantiation over consubstantiation or memorialization?
Memorialization - the Eucharist is just a Memorial Snack. Do it once a year or so and get it over with.So you go with transubstantiation over consubstantiation or memorialization?
Memorialization - the Eucharist is just a Memorial Snack. Do it once a year or so and get it over with.
Yeah, your doctrine requires thsat it be otherwise than what He actually said, which is the basic theses u=of this thread, We all, to some extent, doctor the Scriptures to suit our doctrinal presuppositions. Even an avowed "literalist" like youself.He sure did.
And He meant it too.
Just not the way you think He did.
Really? You say His Body and Blood aren't even there, but you say I fail to discern them. Interesting conradiction, don't you think?It sounds to me that you're guilty of this:
1 Corinthians 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
Speaking of literalism, do you reckon Daniel's 70 weeks of years was 490 years ...
Primarily preaching a dumbed-down version of the gospel. Good guys and bad guys (mostly bad guys) and a vicious God whose only goal was to torture the Bad Guys forever in the most ghastly possible manner, and send take the Good Guys who had been Saved (mostly Baptists) to Heaven where there are streets of gold and where we'd live with God and all the Good Guys forever, end of.In your church-hopping days, what did the Baptists do to you that makes you so bitter?
Primarily preaching a dumbed-down version of the gospel. Good guys and bad guys (mostly bad guys) and a vicious God whose only goal was to torture the Bad Guys forever in the most ghastly possible manner, and send take the Good Guys who had been Saved (mostly Baptists) to Heaven where there are streets of gold and where we'd live with God and all the Good Guys forever, end of.
All unbelievers would fry, as would all those in the wrong churches (notably Catholics, Campbellites, Jehovah Winessess, ad infinitum. I heard on preacher say that the famines in the Horn of Africa were a good thing, because the little children there would die before they reached the Age of Accountability and go to Heaven, while otherwise they'd certainly be tormented in Hell for all eternity. Good stuff like that. Not the God I found in reading the New Testament.
I consider Church Hopping a good thing. Why should anyone be expected to stay in a church where rubbish is being preached?
@Jipsah is not a Catholic in communion with the Holy See in Rome. He is Anglican. Nor is he a Lutheran he is Anglican. Nor is he a Baptist or other Protestant-evangelical he is an Anglican. Anglicans believe in the Real Presence and use their own vocabulary.So you go with transubstantiation over consubstantiation or memorialization?
Anglicans believe in the Real Presence and use their own vocabulary.
Jipsah, I noticed you agreed with this post.@Jipsah is not a Catholic in communion with the Holy See in Rome. He is Anglican. Nor is he a Lutheran he is Anglican. Nor is he a Baptist or other Protestant-evangelical he is an Anglican. Anglicans believe in the Real Presence and use their own vocabulary.
Yes, deep down "ask him" is always going to be the best approach.Does that include: literalist = allegorist = literalist?
Or does Jipsah believe that IN SPITE OF Anglican doctrine; not WITH RESPECT TO it?
(I know. Ask him. Right?)
The part in Capital letters is important. I think you will recognise it.THE EUCHARISTIC PRAYER
Extending his hands, the Priest says:
The Lord be with you.
The people reply:
And with your spirit.
The Priest, raising his hands, continues:
Lift up your hearts.
The people:
We lift them up to the Lord.
The Priest, with hands extended, adds:
Let us give thanks to the Lord our God.
The people:
It is right and just.
The Priest continues with the Preface.
Preface
The wonders of God in the victory of the Martyrs
It is truly right and just, our duty and our salvation,
always and everywhere to give you thanks,
Lord, holy Father, almighty and eternal God.
For you are glorified when your Saints are praised;
their very sufferings are but wonders of your might:
in your mercy you give ardour to their faith,
to their endurance you grant firm resolve,
and in their struggle the victory is yours,
through Christ our Lord.
Therefore, all creatures of heaven and earth
sing a new song in adoration,
and we, with all the host of Angels,
cry out, and without end we acclaim:
The Priest concludes the Preface with the people singing or saying aloud:
Holy, Holy, Holy Lord God of hosts.
Heaven and earth are full of your glory.
Hosanna in the highest.
Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.
Hosanna in the highest.
After this the congregation kneels for the remainder of the Eucharistic Prayer.
Eucharistic Prayer I: "The Roman Canon"
The Priest alone recites:
To you, therefore, most merciful Father,
we make humble prayer and petition
through Jesus Christ, your Son, our Lord:
that you accept
and bless ✠ these gifts, these offerings,
these holy and unblemished sacrifices,
which we offer you firstly
for your holy catholic Church.
Be pleased to grant her peace,
to guard, unite and govern her
throughout the whole world,
together with your servant N. our Pope
and N. our Bishop,
and all those who, holding to the truth,
hand on the catholic and apostolic faith.
Remember, Lord, your servants (N. and N.)
and all gathered here,
whose faith and devotion are known to you.
For them, we offer you this sacrifice of praise
or they offer it for themselves
and all who are dear to them:
for the redemption of their souls,
in hope of health and well-being,
and paying their homage to you,
the eternal God, living and true.
In communion with those whose memory we venerate,
especially the glorious ever-Virgin Mary,
Mother of our God and Lord, Jesus Christ,
and blessed Joseph, her Spouse,
your blessed Apostles and Martyrs,
Peter and Paul, Andrew,
(James, John,
Thomas, James, Philip,
Bartholomew, Matthew,
Simon and Jude;
Linus, Cletus, Clement, Sixtus,
Cornelius, Cyprian,
Lawrence, Chrysogonus,
John and Paul,
Cosmas and Damian)
and all your Saints;
we ask that through their merits and prayers,
in all things we may be defended
by your protecting help.
(Through Christ our Lord. Amen.)
Therefore, Lord, we pray:
graciously accept this oblation of our service,
that of your whole family;
order our days in your peace,
and command that we be delivered from eternal damnation
and counted among the flock of those you have chosen.
(Through Christ our Lord. Amen.)
Be pleased, O God, we pray,
to bless, acknowledge,
and approve this offering in every respect;
make it spiritual and acceptable,
so that it may become for us
the Body and Blood of your most beloved Son,
our Lord Jesus Christ.
On the day before he was to suffer,
he took bread in his holy and venerable hands,
and with eyes raised to heaven
to you, O God, his almighty Father,
giving you thanks, he said the blessing,
broke the bread
and gave it to his disciples, saying:
TAKE THIS, ALL OF YOU, AND EAT OF IT,
FOR THIS IS MY BODY,
WHICH WILL BE GIVEN UP FOR YOU.
In a similar way, when supper was ended,
he took this precious chalice
in his holy and venerable hands,
and once more giving you thanks, he said the blessing
and gave the chalice to his disciples, saying:
TAKE THIS, ALL OF YOU, AND DRINK FROM IT,
FOR THIS IS THE CHALICE OF MY BLOOD,
THE BLOOD OF THE NEW AND ETERNAL COVENANT,
WHICH WILL BE POURED OUT FOR YOU AND FOR MANY
FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS.
DO THIS IN MEMORY OF ME.
After the words of Consecration the priest says:
The mystery of faith.
The people continue, acclaiming:
Either:
We proclaim your Death, O Lord,
and profess your Resurrection
until you come again.
Or:
When we eat this Bread and drink this Cup,
we proclaim your Death, O Lord,
until you come again.
Or:
Save us, Saviour of the world,
for by your Cross and Resurrection
you have set us free.
Therefore, O Lord,
as we celebrate the memorial of the blessed Passion,
the Resurrection from the dead,
and the glorious Ascension into heaven
of Christ, your Son, our Lord,
we, your servants and your holy people,
offer to your glorious majesty
from the gifts that you have given us,
this pure victim,
this holy victim,
this spotless victim,
the holy Bread of eternal life
and the Chalice of everlasting salvation.
Be pleased to look upon these offerings
with a serene and kindly countenance,
and to accept them,
as once you were pleased to accept
the gifts of your servant Abel the just,
the sacrifice of Abraham, our father in faith,
and the offering of your high priest Melchizedek,
a holy sacrifice, a spotless victim.
In humble prayer we ask you, almighty God:
command that these gifts be borne
by the hands of your holy Angel
to your altar on high
in the sight of your divine majesty,
so that all of us, who through this participation at the altar
receive the most holy Body and Blood of your Son,
may be filled with every grace and heavenly blessing.
(Through Christ our Lord. Amen.)
Commemoration of the Dead
Remember also, Lord, your servants N. and N.,
who have gone before us with the sign of faith
and rest in the sleep of peace.
Grant them, O Lord, we pray,
and all who sleep in Christ,
a place of refreshment, light and peace.
(Through Christ our Lord. Amen.)
To us, also, your servants, who, though sinners,
hope in your abundant mercies,
graciously grant some share
and fellowship with your holy Apostles and Martyrs:
with John the Baptist, Stephen,
Matthias, Barnabas,
(Ignatius, Alexander,
Marcellinus, Peter,
Felicity, Perpetua,
Agatha, Lucy,
Agnes, Cecilia, Anastasia)
and all your Saints;
admit us, we beseech you,
into their company,
not weighing our merits,
but granting us your pardon,
through Christ our Lord.
Through whom
you continue to make all these good things, O Lord;
you sanctify them, fill them with life,
bless them, and bestow them upon us.
At the conclusion of the Eucharistic Prayer the Priest takes the chalice and the paten with the host and, raising both, he alone says:
Through him, and with him, and in him,
O God, almighty Father,
in the unity of the Holy Spirit,
all glory and honour is yours,
for ever and ever.
Amen.
You and I very likely differ about the doctrines taught in scripture and the best way to interpret what we read but I think you respect the holy scriptures yourself and believe them. God bless you for that.
Memorialization - the Eucharist is just a Memorial Snack. Do it once a year or so and get it over with.
Transubstatiation - Roman Catholic Dogma. May be absolutely correct, maybe not. Anglicans don't consider it dogma, as we generally see it as elevating the speculative explanation to be equally as important as the unarguable fact, which is taking it too far.
Consubstatiation - IMO an "explanation" that says the bread and wine are there physically and the Lord's body and blood there spiritually. Could be, and may be perfectly valid, but sounds too much like something that came out of a committee to suit me/
Sacramental Union - Luther's idea, that the Bread and Wine are joined in the Eucharist. Bro, ViaCricis can explain it better than I can. It speaks to me as the simplist, and therefore most likely description between the elements and the Body and Blood of our Lord.
In any case, they're all attempts to explain the true presence of our Lord;s Body and Blood in the Eucharest, upon which fact we all agree.
Jipsah, I noticed you agreed with this post.
Is it because you once were, but left those denominations for some reason?
I know I'm asking you a lot of questions that, frankly, aren't any of my business; but you intrigue me.
What is it that you found dissatisfying with:
And what made you settle in as an Anglican?
- Roman Catholicism
- Lutheranism
- Baptists
You are also aware that I am not Roman Catholic, correct?
I am a Catholic, you can tell by the keysNo, I wasn't.
I just used those three (RC, Lutheran, Baptist) because you brought them up in your post.
And I'm obviously of the latter view. Even the Canon of Scripture itself is a matter of holy tradition. But even those of us who claim to hold to Sola Scriptura are altogether to chuck a "what that really means..." or two when their doctrine is at risk. At come right down to it, most if not all Christian groups hsave their own traditions that they hold dearer than Scripture, hence the necessity to keep the "WTRM" devise loose in their scabbard when a favorite doctrine is at risk.
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