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The Myth of Scriptural Literalism

rturner76

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The Bible almost always alerts us, either beforehand or afterwards, when something isn't literal.
In what way does it warn us? I mean does it say "Don't take this next passage literally"? or does it leave it up to our own discernment?
 
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rturner76

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The Bible almost always alerts us, either beforehand or afterwards, when something isn't literal.
Examples? I would like to know how to discern these things. I mostly (well almost always) go by The Churches interpretation assuming I will get the best interpretation from the Apostolic Succession. Others take their interpretation from modern people who used a traslation of a translation from a Church that rejected what parts of the Apostolic Succession that they didn't personally agree with. Who is there to trust when it comes to the discernment of scripture?
 
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AV1611VET

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In what way does it warn us? I mean does it say "Don't take this next passage literally"? or does it leave it up to our own discernment?

Genesis 37:9 And [Joseph] dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.

Acts 11:5 I was in the city of Joppa praying: and in a trance I saw a vision, A certain vessel descend, as it had been a great sheet, let down from heaven by four corners; and it came even to me:
 
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Jipsah

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So you go with transubstantiation over consubstantiation or memorialization?
Memorialization - the Eucharist is just a Memorial Snack. Do it once a year or so and get it over with.
Transubstatiation - Roman Catholic Dogma. May be absolutely correct, maybe not. Anglicans don't consider it dogma, as we generally see it as elevating the speculative explanation to be equally as important as the unarguable fact, which is taking it too far.
Consubstatiation - IMO an "explanation" that says the bread and wine are there physically and the Lord's body and blood there spiritually. Could be, and may be perfectly valid, but sounds too much like something that came out of a committee to suit me/
Sacramental Union - Luther's idea, that the Bread and Wine are joined in the Eucharist. Bro, ViaCricis can explain it better than I can. It speaks to me as the simplist, and therefore most likely description between the elements and the Body and Blood of our Lord.

In any case, they're all attempts to explain the true presence of our Lord;s Body and Blood in the Eucharest, upon which fact we all agree.
 
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AV1611VET

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Memorialization - the Eucharist is just a Memorial Snack. Do it once a year or so and get it over with.

In your church-hopping days, what did the Baptists do to you that makes you so bitter?
 
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Jipsah

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He sure did.

And He meant it too.

Just not the way you think He did.
Yeah, your doctrine requires thsat it be otherwise than what He actually said, which is the basic theses u=of this thread, We all, to some extent, doctor the Scriptures to suit our doctrinal presuppositions. Even an avowed "literalist" like youself.

Speaking of literalism, do you reckon Daniel's 70 weeks of years was 490 yearsm or >2000 years? Does the smoke from burning Edom really arise forever? Just curious.
It sounds to me that you're guilty of this:

1 Corinthians 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
Really? You say His Body and Blood aren't even there, but you say I fail to discern them. Interesting conradiction, don't you think?
 
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Jipsah

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In your church-hopping days, what did the Baptists do to you that makes you so bitter?
Primarily preaching a dumbed-down version of the gospel. Good guys and bad guys (mostly bad guys) and a vicious God whose only goal was to torture the Bad Guys forever in the most ghastly possible manner, and send take the Good Guys who had been Saved (mostly Baptists) to Heaven where there are streets of gold and where we'd live with God and all the Good Guys forever, end of.

All unbelievers would fry, as would all those in the wrong churches (notably Catholics, Campbellites, Jehovah Winessess, ad infinitum. I heard on preacher say that the famines in the Horn of Africa were a good thing, because the little children there would die before they reached the Age of Accountability and go to Heaven, while otherwise they'd certainly be tormented in Hell for all eternity. Good stuff like that. Not the God I found in reading the New Testament.

I consider Church Hopping a good thing. Why should anyone be expected to stay in a church where rubbish is being preached?
 
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AV1611VET

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Okay.

Thanks for an honest answer.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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So you go with transubstantiation over consubstantiation or memorialization?
@Jipsah is not a Catholic in communion with the Holy See in Rome. He is Anglican. Nor is he a Lutheran he is Anglican. Nor is he a Baptist or other Protestant-evangelical he is an Anglican. Anglicans believe in the Real Presence and use their own vocabulary.
 
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AV1611VET

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Anglicans believe in the Real Presence and use their own vocabulary.

Does that include: literalist = allegorist = literalist?

Or does Jipsah believe that IN SPITE OF Anglican doctrine; not WITH RESPECT TO it?

(I know. Ask him. Right? )
 
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AV1611VET

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Jipsah, I noticed you agreed with this post.

Is it because you once were, but left those denominations for some reason?

I know I'm asking you a lot of questions that, frankly, aren't any of my business; but you intrigue me.

What is it that you found dissatisfying with:
  1. Roman Catholicism
  2. Lutheranism
  3. Baptists
And what made you settle in as an Anglican?
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Does that include: literalist = allegorist = literalist?

Or does Jipsah believe that IN SPITE OF Anglican doctrine; not WITH RESPECT TO it?

(I know. Ask him. Right? )
Yes, deep down "ask him" is always going to be the best approach.

On the whole I like you, @AV1611VET, even though I disagree with your theology. What I like is that you give answers to questions, seem to be honest about the answers that you give, and are polite.

My belief is that the bread and the wine are just ordinary bread and wine prior to their consecration with the words of the Eucharistic Prayer, that prayer is a very good presentation of the gospel. If you have the patience to read it I include today's Eucharistic prayer here as a "quote" so it will not take up too much space.
The part in Capital letters is important. I think you will recognise it.

Catholics take scripture literally, I recognise metaphors in it, stories, parables, poems, all the sorts of literary forms that were current usage in the times when the scriptures were written. I acknowledge that ancient literary forms are not like reading a newspaper, nor like reading a history book, nor like science text books. So, when I read the holy scriptures I approach them as holy revelation from God.

You and I very likely differ about the doctrines taught in scripture and the best way to interpret what we read but I think you respect the holy scriptures yourself and believe them. God bless you for that.
 
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AV1611VET

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You and I very likely differ about the doctrines taught in scripture and the best way to interpret what we read but I think you respect the holy scriptures yourself and believe them. God bless you for that.

Thank you, sir!

I have my moments.

But for the most part, I try to be friendly.

Thank you for a nice post.
 
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The Liturgist

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And there is the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox and Assyrian view, which is also the Patristic view, which is simply that the bread and wine are changed by the Holy Spirit into the Precious Body and Blood of the Only Begotten Son and Word of God, who sacrificed Himself for us so He could conquer death and grant everlasting life.

Thus his Body and Blood is the medicine of immortality, and we partake of it in the Divine Liturgy, which is a sacred mystery and facilitates communion with our Lord through participation in the Last Supper.

This doctrine was expanded upon by the Roman Scholastic theologians like Thomas Aquinas to become transubstantiation, which was interesting but also not entirely necessary, and unfortunately caused confusion when Martin Luther accepted, correctly, the Patristic doctrine while rejecting transubstantiation as overcomplicated and on other grounds, as @ViaCrucis and @MarkRohfrietsch can confirm.

I personally object to transubstantiation because in claiming that the accidents remain the same and only the substance changes, aside from invoking Aristotelian categories which are purely philosophical abstractions and lack an underlying reality in physical science, it does not explain how in some cases Eucharistic Miracles have occurred, in Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic and other churches, in which someone perceives the Body and Blood for what they are.

For example, a Muslim who saw the priest cutting apart an infant, and after running to try to find the guards, he returned and looked again and saw the infant Christ now appeared as bread on the altar, and on this basis he converted to Christianity. When the authorities found out, he was beheaded and received a Crown of Martyrdom, for the penalty for converting from Islam to another religion is death under Shariah Law.

This to me suggests a fluidity to the Arisotelian category of the accident, since transaccidentiation is implied, but only one man, the Muslim, saw it in the former case, whereas in other cases a whole congregation witnessed the miracle.
 
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The Liturgist

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You are also aware that I am not Roman Catholic, correct?
 
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AV1611VET

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You are also aware that I am not Roman Catholic, correct?

No, I wasn't.

I just used those three (RC, Lutheran, Baptist) because you brought them up in your post.
 
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Studyman

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That would also then, include your stated religion with its religious traditions passed on for Generations, Yes? So then you and Bob are the same, each having chosen the philosophies of one religious sect or franchise, from the "many" which exist in the world God placed you both in. The only difference between you, is the religious sect you adopted.

Wasn't Abraham also born in a land in which religions existed? And Jesus too? And Zacharias, Simeon, the Wise men, Peter, etc.? It seems they were called out of this world's religions. Is it different today?

I mean, God even placed EVE in a world in which other religious voices existed, which quote some of God's Word.

Is God's way a way that requires me to choose one manmade shrine of worship over another, before HE can reveal Himself to me? And just hope I pick one who teaches His Truth? If this is the case, then why does Paul promote the study and belief in the Law and Prophets??

I don't think God needs me to join a religious business to know Him, or keep His Commandments, or to, as Paul teaches, "Yield myself" servants to obey Him.

Of course, there is no money to be made or notoriety from men to be had with such a position. Nevertheless, it is a valid point.
 
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