durangodawood
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Shows the power of religion to overcome people's dis-inclination to violence.
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Shows the power of religion to overcome people's dis-inclination to violence.There were many crusades, but let's try to generalize to the ones fought in the holy lands. They are good examples of wars to fight back invaders that simply used religion as a rally call rather than as their valid reason for war.
While I agree with you, we cannot take this to the extent of saying that a Christian today cannot participate in a righteous war.Christianity accepts the idea from the OT that when God himself speaks directly to a prophet to instruct a war, it is righteous. However, God no longer speaks in this manner.
You cannot ignore the context of violence in the culture. Christian faith was often invoked by opposing sides in a war. Christianity still today is influenced by the culture in which it exists.I'm not making any of this up, I'm referring to the way Christians used to think when they ruled the Europe for a thousand years or so.
Christianity accepts the idea from the OT that when God himself speaks directly to a prophet to instruct a war, it is righteous. However, God no longer speaks in this manner.
Oh trust me, I am so not a Pacifist. But participating in a just war is to participate in the name of ethics. Persons of all faiths or even lack of faith can argue to participate in such a war. A just war is no more a "Christian" war than a "Jewish" war or "Muslim" war or even an "Atheist" war, etc.While I agree with you, we cannot take this to the extent of saying that a Christian today cannot participate in a righteous war.
There have been times when, i.e., the Pope has declared a war. However, when he has done so, he has not been speaking for the Church on the matters of faith and morals. Thus he is NOT SPEAKING INFALLIBLY. Any Catholic is free to disagree with what is essentially a respected but ultimately personal opinion. Honestly, you can count on one hand the number of times a Pope has spoken infallibly on their own.That's your interpretation, and probably the most popular one today. But as I said, there is material in the Bible for another kind of interpretation.
Or if you for example, believe in infallibility of your Church, and the Church goes and declares war in God's name, chances are that you go along. Again, not making of any this up, it was done many times in history.
There have been times when, i.e., the Pope has declared a war. However, when he has done so, he has not been speaking for the Church on the matters of faith and morals. Thus he is NOT SPEAKING INFALLIBLY. Any Catholic is free to disagree with what is essentially a respected but ultimately personal opinion. Honestly, you can count on one hand the number of times a Pope has spoken infallibly on their own.
Deus lo vultWhen we talk about religious politics, there is no line between matters of faith and morals, and matters of politics and war. They're tangled together, so when talking about religious war, pope is talking about matters of faith.
Eye-witness record of what the Pope said when he called for the first Crusade in the middle east. To me it doesn't sound like a words of a guy who is going to like if somebody is going to disagree with him:
"On this account I, or rather the Lord, beseech you as Christ's heralds to publish this everywhere and to persuade all people of whatever rank, foot-soldiers and knights, poor and rich, to carry aid promptly to those Christians and to destroy that vile race from the lands of our friends. I say this to those who are present, it meant also for those who are absent. Moreover, Christ commands it.
"All who die by the way, whether by land or by sea, or in battle against the pagans, shall have immediate remission of sins. This I grant them through the power of God with which I am invested."
Oh, we had arrogant Popes back in the day when Popes had a good deal more imagined authority. But the fact is, this extra authority was never real, it has no history from the ECF, nor is it considered substantial today. It was nothing more than a trendy sort of idea that came and went, and was never dogma.When we talk about religious politics, there is no line between matters of faith and morals, and matters of politics and war. They're tangled together, so when talking about religious war, pope is talking about matters of faith.
Oh, we had arrogant Popes back in the day when Popes had a good deal more imagined authority. But the fact is, this extra authority was never real, it has no history from the ECF, nor is it considered substantial today. It was nothing more than a trendy sort of idea that came and went, and was never dogma.
I was arguing more than a just war from the human perspective - I believe the hand of God is seen in the outcome of WW1 & WW11. Just watched a documentary on the development of the nuclear bomb. The Nazis were also working on an atom bomb. Was it just luck that allowed America to develop it first? Using the bomb is morally offensive to many people; others see it as the hand of God.Oh trust me, I am so not a Pacifist. But participating in a just war is to participate in the name of ethics. Persons of all faiths or even lack of faith can argue to participate in such a war. A just war is no more a "Christian" war than a "Jewish" war or "Muslim" war or even an "Atheist" war, etc.
I believe the hand of God is seen in the outcome of WW1 & WW11.
Yes. I think WW1 is an example of a foolish unjust war, and WW2 is an example of a thoroughly just war.I was arguing more than a just war from the human perspective - I believe the hand of God is seen in the outcome of WW1 & WW11. Just watched a documentary on the development of the nuclear bomb. The Nazis were also working on an atom bomb. Was it just luck that allowed America to develop it first? Using the bomb is morally offensive to many people; others see it as the hand of God.
There is quite a bit of historical evidence, that many wars were battled because of religious differences between people and most historians would agree with the motivation.
Religious beliefs in general, are very important to individuals, because they are a crucial part of their personal psyche and need to be protected. This psychological state leads to this; my religion is superior to your religion and my religion allows me to be entitled to go to war with you.
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