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The Myth of Catholic Irrationality

Givemeareason

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Just attended Catholic mass and was really impressed. Accordingly my first concerns have been where is the church today. I have been wondering where they stand on the pervasive issues posed by fundamentalists and creationism and have delightfully found them to be opposed to it. Hence I found this

The Church Opposes Science: The Myth of Catholic IrrationalityCHRISTOPHER KACZOR

Many people believe that faith and reason, or religion and science, are locked in an irreconcilable war of attrition against one another.

One must choose to be a person of learning, science, and reason, or choose to embrace religion, dogma, and faith alone. On this view, the Church opposes science, and if one embraces science, then one ought to reject the Church.

The scientific method looks to evidence to settle questions, so perhaps it would be fair to look at evidence to answer the question whether the Catholic Church is opposed to science and reason. If the Catholic Church were opposed to science, we would expect to find no or very few Catholic scientists, no sponsorship of scientific research by Catholic institutions, and an explicit distrust of reason in general and scientific reasoning in particular taught in official Catholic teaching. In fact, we find none of these things.

Historically, Catholics are numbered among the most important scientists of all time, including Rene Descartes, who discovered analytic geometry and the laws of refraction; Blaise Pascal, inventor of the adding machine, hydraulic press, and the mathematical theory of probabilities; Augustinian priest Gregor Mendel, who founded modern genetics; Louis Pasteur, founder of microbiology and creator of the first vaccine for rabies and anthrax; and cleric Nicolaus Copernicus, who first developed scientifically the view that the earth rotated around the sun. Jesuit priests in particular have a long history of scientific achievement; they

contributed to the development of pendulum clocks, pantographs, barometers, reflecting telescopes and microscopes, to scientific fields as various as magnetism, optics and electricity. They observed, in some cases before anyone else, the colored bands on Jupiter's surface, the Andromeda nebula and Saturn's rings. They theorized about the circulation of the blood (independently of Harvey), the theoretical possibility of flight, the way the moon affected the tides, and the wave-like nature of light. Star maps of the southern hemisphere, symbolic logic, flood-control measures on the Po and Adige rivers, introducing plus and minus signs into Italian mathematics — all were typical Jesuit achievements, and scientists as influential as Fermat, Huygens, Leibniz and Newton were not alone in counting Jesuits among their most prized correspondents. [1]

The scientist credited with proposing in the 1930s what came to be known as the "Big Bang theory" of the origin of the universe was Georges Lemaitre, a Belgian physicist and Roman Catholic priest. Alexander Fleming, the inventor of penicillin, shared his faith. More recently, Catholics constitute a good number of Nobel Laureates in Physics, Medicine, and Physiology, including Erwin Schrodinger, John Eccles, and Alexis Carrel. How can the achievements of so many Catholics in science be reconciled with the idea that the Catholic Church opposes scientific knowledge and progress?

One might try to explain such distinguished Catholic scientists as rare individuals who dared to rebel against the institutional Church, which opposes science. However, the Catholic Church as an institution funds, sponsors, and supports scientific research in the Pontifical Academy of Science and in the departments of science found in every Catholic university across the world, including those governed by Roman Catholic bishops, such as The Catholic University of America. This financial and institutional support of science by the Church began at the very birth of science in seventeenth-century Europe and continues today. Even Church buildings themselves were not only used for religious purposes but designed in part to foster scientific knowledge. As Thomas Woods notes:

Cathedrals in Bologna, Florence, Paris, and Rome were designed in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries to function as world-class solar observatories. Nowhere in the world were there more precise instruments for the study of the sun. Each such cathedral contained holes through which sunlight could enter and time lines (or meridian lines) on the floor. It was by observing the path traced out by the sunlight on these lines that researchers could obtain accurate measurements of time and predict equinoxes. [2]

In the words of J. L. Heilbron of the University of California, Berkeley, the "Roman Catholic Church gave more financial aid and social support to the study of astronomy over six centuries, from the recovery of ancient learning during the late Middle Ages into the Enlightenment, than any other, and probably, all other institutions." [3] This financial and social support extended also to other branches of scientific inquiry.

Such support is not only consistent with official Catholic teaching but is enthusiastically endorsed. On the Church's view, science and faith are complementary to each other and mutually beneficial. In 1988, Pope John Paul II addressed a letter to the Director of the Vatican Astronomical Observatory, noting, "Science can purify religion from error and superstition; religion can purify science from idolatry and false absolutes. Each can draw the other into a wider world, a world in which both can flourish." [4] As Nobel Laureate Joseph Murray notes, "Is the Church inimical to science? Growing up as a Catholic and a scientist — I don't see it. One truth is revealed truth, the other is scientific truth. If you really believe that creation is good, there can be no harm in studying science. The more we learn about creation — the way it emerged — it just adds to the glory of God. Personally, I've never seen a conflict." [5] In order to understand the complementarity of faith and science, indeed faith and reason more broadly, it is important to consider their relationship in greater depth.

A sign hung in Albert Einstein's office at Princeton University that read: "Not everything that can be counted counts; not everything that counts can be counted." Faith cannot be quantified and counted, like forces in physics or elements in chemistry, but that does not mean that faith is insignificant. Faith helps us to answer some of the most important questions facing mankind. As important as scientific discoveries can be, such discoveries do not touch on all of the inevitable questions facing us: What should I do? Whom should I love? What can I hope for? To answer questions such as these, science alone is not enough because science alone cannot answer questions that fall outside its empirical method. Rather, we need faith and reason operating together to answer such questions and to build a truly human community.

One reason that people view faith and science as in opposition is that they often view faith and reason more generally as in opposition. Our culture often pits faith against reason, as if the more faith-filled you are, the less reasonable you are. Faith and reason in the minds of so many people are polar opposites, never to be combined, and never to be reconciled. In this way, our culture often offers us false alternatives: live either by faith or by reason. To be religious is to reject reason; to be reasonable is to reject religion. But like other false alternatives, e.g., "Did you stop beating your wife this week, or last week?" such thinking artificially limits our freedom. Rather than choosing between faith and reason, the Church invites us to harmonize our faith and our reason because both are vitally important to human well-being.

A sign hung in Albert Einstein's office at Princeton University that read: "Not everything that can be counted counts; not everything that counts can be counted."

Developing a long tradition of Catholic reflection on the compatibility of faith and reason, Pope Benedict XVI seeks to unite what has so often become divided, by championing the full breadth of reason (including but not limited to scientific reasoning) combined with an adult faith. Rather than pitting faith against reason, the pope is calling for a reasonable faith and a faithful reason. From a Catholic perspective, the truths of faith and the truths of reason (including science) cannot in principle ever be opposed, because God is the ultimate Author of the book of Grace (revelation) as well as the book of Nature (philosophy and science). One ought not, therefore, choose between faith on the one hand and reason on the other, but rather one should seek to bring both faith and reason into a more fruitful collaboration.

In a Catholic view, since faith and reason are compatible, science — one particular kind of reasoning — and the Catholic religion are also compatible. Nevertheless, it is a commonly held view that one must choose between science and faith. Why is this? There are several core issues that drive this misunderstanding. First, Genesis claims that God created the world in seven days, but science indicates that the universe, including the earth, developed over billions of years. Secondly, Genesis talks about the first man, Adam, and the first woman, Eve, being created by God, as well as all the animals being created by God. Science indicates that all life — including human life — evolved over millions of years. Third, Bible stories are rife with miracles, but science has shown that miracles are impossible. Fourth, and most famously, the Catholic Church condemned Galileo. Finally, the Church's opposition to stem cell research is seen as anti-science. Each of these objections is commonly used to justify the claim that the Church opposes science.

First, let's consider the claim that in Genesis God created the world in seven days but science indicates that the universe, including the earth, developed over billions of years. In the Catholic tradition, the creation accounts in Genesis have been interpreted in a wide variety of ways. Both literal and figurative readings of Genesis are theologically acceptable for Catholics. Some theologians, such as Saint Ambrose, understood the Genesis account of creation in a literal way. But for the most part, Catholic theologians, including Saint Augustine, Saint Thomas Aquinas, Blessed John Henry Newman, Pope John Paul II, and Pope Benedict XVI, have interpreted Genesis as teaching the truth about creation in a nonliteral, nonscientific way. [6] Pope John Paul II puts the point as follows:

The Bible itself speaks to us of the origin of the universe and its make-up, not in order to provide us with a scientific treatise, but in order to state the correct relationships of man with God and with the universe. Sacred Scripture wishes simply to declare that the world was created by God, and in order to teach this truth it expresses itself in the terms of the cosmology in use at the time of the writer. [7]

Dr. Scott Hahn has pointed out that we might misunderstand the point of the seven days spoken about in Genesis, if we do not understand that the ancient Hebrew word for seven is the same word used for "making a covenant". So, when it is said that God created the world in seven days, the text is communicating to its original readers that God has created the world in a covenantal relationship with the Divine. [8] Indeed, it was this idea — that the world is an orderly creation from an intelligent God — that led to the beginnings of science. For if the world is not intelligible and orderly, there would be no point in trying to understand its laws of operation, the laws of nature which scientific investigation seeks to discover.

Secondly, the incompatibility of Genesis and the evolution of species causes some people to think that religious belief is incompatible with science. If the first man, Adam, and the first woman, Eve, were created by God, as well as all the animals, then all life — including human life — did not evolve over millions of years. If all life evolved over millions of years, then there could not be a first man, Adam, a first woman, Eve, or a creation of animals directly by God. As noted, the Catholic Church does not generally require that individual Scripture verses be interpreted in one sense rather than another. Individual believers and theologians may come to different understandings of a particular passage but remain Catholics in good standing. So, one could believe with Saint Ambrose that Genesis provides a play-by-play account of exactly how God did things over seven 24-hour days. Or, one could believe with Saint Augustine, Saint Thomas Aquinas, Blessed John Henry Newman, Pope John Paul II, and Pope Benedict XVI that Genesis is not properly interpreted in this literalistic way. If one interprets Genesis in the ways suggested by the nonliteral view, then there is no contradiction in believing both in Genesis and in evolution as a way for accounting for the physical development of man provided one believes in a first man and first woman, from whom mankind descended and inherited original sin (see Humani Generis, no. 27). [9] Of course, the Catholic Church does not require that Catholics believe in evolution or any other view taught by any given scientist. However, if one believes in evolution, then one can also — as did Pope John Paul II — remain a faithful Catholic. [10]

A third problem that gives rise to difficulties for some people is that miracles are found in the Bible, but science is incompatible with belief in miracles. By miracle, I mean a supernatural intervention by God into the normal course of events. Is belief in miracles incompatible with science? To answer this question, it is important to distinguish science or the scientific method from what is called philosophical naturalism. The scientific method looks for natural causes to explain things that have happened. Philosophical naturalism, a philosophicaltheory, not a scientifically justified view, holds that there are only natural causes and no supernatural (divine) causes. Scientists can conduct their scientific investigations with or without a belief in philosophical naturalism. If God the Creator exists, then naturalism is false because a Creator God is a supernatural cause. If there is a Creator with power over the entire universe, then miracles are possible, for God could intervene in his creation. Indeed, science could only prove that miracles cannot happen, if it proved that there is no God. But science has not and cannot prove such a claim, since the realm of science is limited to the empirically verifiable, and God — at least as understood by most believers — is not a material being but a spiritual being.

this HTML class. Value is http://www.catholice
 

HerCrazierHalf

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Not sure this can be discussed without disparaging them.

The science and arts have been part of various faiths' history, but they still hold positions that seem illogical to outsiders. I think it is certain dogma or other statements by church officials that sounds illogical to the outsider.

For instance, claim that a decline in religious belief means more exsorcist are required seems illogical to those of us on the outside.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ans-we-need-more-exorcists-say-Catholics.html
 
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Givemeareason

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Not sure this can be discussed without disparaging them.

The science and arts have been part of various faiths' history, but they still hold positions that seem illogical to outsiders. I think it is certain dogma or other statements by church officials that sounds illogical to the outsider.

For instance, claim that a decline in religious belief means more exsorcist are required seems illogical to those of us on the outside.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ans-we-need-more-exorcists-say-Catholics.html
Yes, you raise the dilemma posed by people of rational mind vs people whose minds are not so rational. The latter clearly being the majority. To me this points all the more to the need for Christianity and probably even more so for Catholicism in my opinion because of the more structured guidance and support offered by the Catholic Church. Many would argue in favor of a more secular world but I strongly disagree. Most of humanity would flounder without inspiration and structured moral guidance. It is Christianity whether we like it or not that western civilization arose from. Which is not to say they are by any means the same. Therefore it is extremely rational to support such seemingly irrational endeavors on the part of the Catholic Church. And I say this as not being Catholic nor even a believer. On the other hand there are other believers who try to justify completely irrational ideas claiming they are rational and even supposedly science while engaging in self deceit and worse yet deceit of others. I am not much concerned about exorcism in light of the damage these others seek to inflict. I would gladly endorse the Catholic Church if they can help us rid the world of these others.
 
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HerCrazierHalf

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Yes, you raise the dilemma posed by people of rational mind vs people whose minds are not so rational. The latter clearly being the majority. To me this points all the more to the need for Christianity and probably even more so for Catholicism in my opinion because of the more structured guidance and support offered by the Catholic Church. Many would argue in favor of a more secular world but I strongly disagree. Most of humanity would flounder without inspiration and structured moral guidance. It is Christianity whether we like it or not that western civilization arose from. Which is not to say they are by any means the same. Therefore it is extremely rational to support such seemingly irrational endeavors on the part of the Catholic Church. And I say this as not being Catholic nor even a believer. On the other hand there are other believers who try to justify completely irrational ideas claiming they are rational and even supposedly science while engaging in self deceit and worse yet deceit of others. I am not much concerned about exorcism in light of the damage these others seek to inflict. I would gladly endorse the Catholic Church if they can help us rid the world of these others.
Yes, you raise the dilemma posed by people of rational mind vs people whose minds are not so rational. The latter clearly being the majority. To me this points all the more to the need for Christianity and probably even more so for Catholicism in my opinion because of the more structured guidance and support offered by the Catholic Church. Many would argue in favor of a more secular world but I strongly disagree. Most of humanity would flounder without inspiration and structured moral guidance. It is Christianity whether we like it or not that western civilization arose from. Which is not to say they are by any means the same. Therefore it is extremely rational to support such seemingly irrational endeavors on the part of the Catholic Church. And I say this as not being Catholic nor even a believer. On the other hand there are other believers who try to justify completely irrational ideas claiming they are rational and even supposedly science while engaging in self deceit and worse yet deceit of others. I am not much concerned about exorcism in light of the damage these others seek to inflict. I would gladly endorse the Catholic Church if they can help us rid the world of these others.
Yes, it is true that religion, particularly Christianity played an important positive role in the history of the West. But that doesn't mean the dogmas and beliefs aren't illogical just because they may have a positive affect.

I agree that a large portion, even the majority of people crave and to some extent require the morality and structure that organized religion provides. Some of the end results are good, but the arguments used just dint seem to hold up when viewed from outside the group.

A good example are the numerous people who have turned their lives around because they have been born again our find Jesus. Another example is apparent when believers explain that they don't commit certain acts in part because God is always watching. But specifically, as far as Catholicism goes it seems problematic to essentially agree to accent to the opinion of the organization as the default position. I know it is a bit more complex than that, but you can deny that that isn't a major part of their faith.
 
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HerCrazierHalf

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Ironically, most of the science stuff is non issue. It comes down to social stuff and obviously sexual morality among others. If they wish to believe in transubstantiation fine I guess. But other beliefs have negative consequences.

The prohibition on contraception has literally led to the death of thousands, if not more. Prohibiting condoms only exacerbates AIDS issues in Africa and prohibiting contraception in general also has health consequences for women plus poverty concerns. Yes, there is nfp, but imo it is designed to fail.

Therefore, in that issue many faithful Catholics would have to let the Church over ride their logic and risk poverty, injury, and even death.
 
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Givemeareason

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Ironically, most of the science stuff is non issue. It comes down to social stuff and obviously sexual morality among others. If they wish to believe in transubstantiation fine I guess. But other beliefs have negative consequences.

The prohibition on contraception has literally led to the death of thousands, if not more. Prohibiting condoms only exacerbates AIDS issues in Africa and prohibiting contraception in general also has health consequences for women plus poverty concerns. Yes, there is nfp, but imo it is designed to fail.

Therefore, in that issue many faithful Catholics would have to let the Church over ride their logic and risk poverty, injury, and even death.

Yes, you are regrettably correct. The problem I see is that the Catholic church has to be consistent and not start changing moral positions. While its intentions are good it can't easily change positions.
 
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Givemeareason

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Archaeopteryx

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Regrettably because of polarized arguments that now separate faith from fact it is becoming true. It is interesting seeing all the money being made by those who seek to increase the divide.
The divide isn't an artificial one. It can sometimes be difficult to identify the dividing line precisely, but it's there.
 
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Givemeareason

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The divide isn't an artificial one. It can sometimes be difficult to identify the dividing line precisely, but it's there.
Unfortunately faith is becoming so entrenched and ignorant from all the profiteers that people of rational mind are being driven away. I see no issue in defining existence in purely natural terms. Yet now even the mention of the supernatural is driving the rational mind away. My question is whether faith can exist without self deception.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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Unfortunately faith is becoming so entrenched and ignorant from all the profiteers that people of rational mind are being driven away. I see no issue in defining existence in purely natural terms. Yet now even the mention of the supernatural is driving the rational mind away. My question is whether faith can exist without self deception.
Is that such a bad thing though? If certain religious ideas are able to withstand scrutiny and show merit, then they will have proven their worth and we can readily integrate them into our lives. If the ideas are unable to withstand scrutiny and have only dubious merit, then why shouldn't we discard them? We'd probably be better off discarding them.
 
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Givemeareason

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Is that such a bad thing though? If certain religious ideas are able to withstand scrutiny and show merit, then they will have proven their worth and we can readily integrate them into our lives. If the ideas are unable to withstand scrutiny and have only dubious merit, then why shouldn't we discard them? We'd probably be better off discarding them.

But who would decide what gets discarded.
 
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GrowingSmaller

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If rationality is the serving of peoples interests, then everyone has a degree of it, just because they are alive. Even when they're asleep - an unconsicous rationality of physiological processes.
 
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Givemeareason

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We do, after engaging in a discussion that critically examines those doctrines. We wouldn't be discarding it arbitrarily, but because it could not withstand scrutiny.
There is no We. This is merely a continuation of Us vs Them. I am posing the idea that Catholicism remains the most rational expression of Christianity today. And it certainly will not be going away any time soon nor should it. I am seeking to understand it. It seeks to reconcile with reason, science and knowledge while providing hope and inspiration for millions. It in my view is not utopia but tries to be the hope for as many as possible. I can personally find no flaw in the teachings of Jesus as expressed in the bible. That however does not make me a believer. It does however make millions of others into believers and offers guidance as well. I do not care to see Christianity become a bastion of ignorance as it is becoming elsewhere. Catholicism is well intentioned and it affects the world in different ways not always good. I think that summarizes the views of many. I am hoping the end justifies the means.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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There is no We. This is merely a continuation of Us vs Them. I am posing the idea that Catholicism remains the most rational expression of Christianity today. And it certainly will not be going away any time soon nor should it. I am seeking to understand it. It seeks to reconcile with reason, science and knowledge while providing hope and inspiration for millions. It in my view is not utopia but tries to be the hope for as many as possible. I can personally find no flaw in the teachings of Jesus as expressed in the bible. That however does not make me a believer. It does however make millions of others into believers and offers guidance as well. I do not care to see Christianity become a bastion of ignorance as it is becoming elsewhere. Catholicism is well intentioned and it affects the world in different ways not always good. I think that summarizes the views of many. I am hoping the end justifies the means.
Based on my own experience, I'm inclined to agree that Catholicism at least appears to be more open to the findings of science and apparently eager to figure out how these findings hang together with existing doctrines - the Pope's latest encyclical is an example of that. I attended a Catholic high school, and many religious education classes centred on interpreting current events through the lens of tradition and scripture, so this approach is at least somewhat familiar to me. Indeed, my high school's motto was "Faith seeking understanding," which provided the impetus for doing this.
 
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Givemeareason

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Based on my own experience, I'm inclined to agree that Catholicism at least appears to be more open to the findings of science and apparently eager to figure out how these findings hang together with existing doctrines - the Pope's latest encyclical is an example of that. I attended a Catholic high school, and many religious education classes centred on interpreting current events through the lens of tradition and scripture, so this approach is at least somewhat familiar to me. Indeed, my high school's motto was "Faith seeking understanding," which provided the impetus for doing this.
And what greater goal in life but to seek understanding.
 
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