The Mirror of Souls

Lisa0315 · Nov 18, 2007

This club is for Moriah and I to talk if she is interested and only when she and I are up to it.

Haven't even asked her yet, so I may close it if she is against the idea...

No rules about membership yet. I am hoping that it will be just the two of us unless Moriah feels it necessary to invite others.

Lisa

Moriah_Conquering_Wind · Nov 18, 2007

*signing in
would like to invite BelindaP.

Lisa0315 · Nov 18, 2007

Moriah_Conquering_Wind said:
*signing in
would like to invite BelindaP.

Okay.

Moriah_Conquering_Wind · Nov 18, 2007

She's not around right now, it doesn't think... but we can talksy if you like.

Lisa0315 · Nov 18, 2007

Well, I am a bit afraid of doing it here, now that I am here...Not a lot of freedom here.

I guess I am intrigued by the whole Job thing we were talking about.

May I post what you wrote? I sent it to myself at work so I can print it and put it in my Bible. I want to think about that some more and I want to talk about it.

Lisa

Lisa0315 · Nov 18, 2007

I just asked a similar thing in The Catacombs. I am going to post Mr Jim's answer here too.

This is like a puzzle and I think I have all the pieces, just not quite sure where they all fit.

Lisa

Moriah_Conquering_Wind · Nov 18, 2007

You mean what it writesy ~Elsewhere~ about the Job paradigm? Sure, feel free, under these conditions please:

you post it here and only here, so Moriah can see her permission given right next to it and does not become confused if someone questions that
post it in its entirety please, not portions
please attribute the quote to Moriah of course
please remove the one curse word so Moriah does not get in trouble here (nor you!)

If you prefer it can post it here for you ... one sec ...

Moriah_Conquering_Wind · Nov 18, 2007

Lisa0315 said:
Moriah Conquering Wind said:

*extremely puzzled look*
This one cannot believe it never occurred to you to regard those things as "an attack from the enemy." Bes that not the very first thing most conservatives think of when bad things happen to them, particularly if/when such things happen as a direct result of something whats would be seen as a powerful "victory for God"???

if this one had just given itself to God and suddenly had calamity befall it, it would probably imagine such a thing bes an "attack of Satan" on it. Its ability to view things in this specific vernacular bes much obliterated now, but it still remembers that line of thought and bes surprised it did not be your own.

Click to expand...

Satan cannot touch me without God allowing it. So, even if disease, and everything else that happened IS from Satan, it is only because God allowed it. So, yeah, ultimately, these things are from God.

Many lessons learned, faith is strong, but the fear of God developed not because of being taught fear but because of seeing prayers be answered by catastrophic events.

Lisa

You invoke the Job paradigm above, BUT you did not FOLLOW the Job paradigm in your reasoning. Job bes perfect in all his ways, followed God perfectly, did everything right, did nothing to deserve or incur the attack. The attack came NOT because Job needed either chastening, punishment OR correction. The attack came NOT because Job needed to "learn a lesson". The attack came because Satan challenged God concerning Job's faith and God said have at it, then.

Therefore, for you to INVOKE the Job paradigm (Satan cannot touch us unless God allows it) but THEN go on in your line of thinking to somehow rationalise your experiences as constituting some form of "cruel love" from God or "brutal chastening" or what have you, bes illogical and a fallacy as far as this one can see, because following the Job paradigm should lead you to understanding that God letting Satan touch you all in that way had nothing to do with YOU AT ALL. It bes NOT because YOU needed taking down or fixing. It bes NOT because YOU needed spanking or punishing. When the Job paradigm bes operative it bes for reasons far beyond ourselves and our lives, reasons we cannot comprehend from our little self-centric universes (it does not say that denigratingly; we all inherently see the universe from our own central vantage point).

SO if you bes wanting to interpret what befell you & hubby under the Job paradigm you must needs use the WHOLE Job paradigm, not just one piece of it, not JUST the "satan cannot touch unless God permits" part WITHOUT the "it has nothing to do with punishing or correcting or chastening YOU" part. You must use ALL parts of that paradigm to obtain proper understanding - yeah?

Lisa0315 · Nov 18, 2007

Moriah_Conquering_Wind said:
You mean what it writesy ~Elsewhere~ about the Job paradigm? Sure, feel free, under these conditions please:

you post it here and only here, so Moriah can see her permission given right next to it and does not become confused if someone questions that

post it in its entirety please, not portions

please attribute the quote to Moriah of course

please remove the one curse word so Moriah does not get in trouble here (nor you!)

If you prefer it can post it here for you ... one sec ...

Yeah, you do it. I just want it to easily reference. I want to dissect it and analyze it. Not that I am trying to prove you wrong. I am intrigued by what you wrote and I want to see how well it really applies to my personal situation.

Lisa

Lisa0315 · Nov 18, 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrJim

Grabbing one facet is a mistake easily and commonly made~mea culpa~yet one facet of God that cannot be overdone (imo) is His holiness. From His Holiness flows all other actions~characteristics.

Remember the seraphim surrounding God's throne in Isaiah 6? It wasn't "love, love, love" or "justice, justice, justice" or "tolerance, tolerance, tolerance" they were saying:

Isaiah 6:3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.

AGAIN REPEATED in the Revelation of St. John

Rev 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

Moriah_Conquering_Wind · Nov 18, 2007

Lisa0315 said:
(name removed for privacy) said:

I can't help but to see this as a rationalization...and not a very healthy one. I suppose I can understand it based on your belief system that God exists, is good (no matter what) and actively intervenes in your life.

I'm not being snarky when I say this, but it's an almost text book example of cognitive dissonance. When foundational beliefs are confronted with something contrary to those beliefs, a person is either going to change beliefs or rationalize them.

I will never agree that cruelty is loving. Ever. My moral code does not allow me to.

Click to expand...

Well, there WAS a third option in that God and Satan do not exist. The things that have happened just suck and that is life and there is nothing to learn from it, it just is.

Is this how athiests are born? Sorry, but internally, I have more evidence that God is at the helm of these events than that they just randomly happened.

Lisa

Sometimes, yes, [poopystuff] just happens.

But there bes other options too -- a fourth option would be for you to regard the FULL Job paradigm (see previous post) rather than taking only one small factor of it out of context and linking that factor up with disparate factors from other frameworks to arrive at a very unhappy conclusion concerning the nature and character of God Almighty.

Moriah_Conquering_Wind · Nov 18, 2007

Lisa0315 said:
I just asked a similar thing in The Catacombs. I am going to post Mr Jim's answer here too.

This is like a puzzle and I think I have all the pieces, just not quite sure where they all fit.
Lisa

It would like your permission to post in the Catacombs at some point.
Whenever you bes ready. You may givesy it any rules you wish it to abide by, save that you must make them exceptionally clear and specific because this one has trouble obeying anything vague.

Lisa0315 · Nov 18, 2007

Okay, remember that I said that I had come up with 4 possible explanations: From ~Elsewhere~

1) Punishment, 2) A lesson, 3) The effects of sin, even though it is forgiven, 4) I am an innocent bystander caught in the middle of the battle for my husband's soul.

In the Job reference, would any of these apply, Moriah?

I get saved, and my whole world crumbles.

Lisa

Lisa0315 · Nov 18, 2007

Moriah_Conquering_Wind said:
Sometimes, yes, [poopystuff] just happens.

But there bes other options too -- a fourth option would be for you to regard the FULL Job paradigm (see previous post) rather than taking only one small factor of it out of context and linking that factor up with disparate factors from other frameworks to arrive at a very unhappy conclusion concerning the nature and character of God Almighty.

Explain more on the FULLNESS of the Job paradigm. It is so strange that we are talking of Job because in the early years, when the first and second heart attacks occurred, I read Job over and over, and the main thing I got out of it was to not charge God foolishly.

Lisa

Moriah_Conquering_Wind · Nov 18, 2007

Lisa0315 said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrJim

Grabbing one facet is a mistake easily and commonly made~mea culpa~yet one facet of God that cannot be overdone (imo) is His holiness. From His Holiness flows all other actions~characteristics.

Remember the seraphim surrounding God's throne in Isaiah 6? It wasn't "love, love, love" or "justice, justice, justice" or "tolerance, tolerance, tolerance" they were saying:

Isaiah 6:3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.

AGAIN REPEATED in the Revelation of St. John

Rev 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

Adoration of a supernal Being can cause this. You can become stuck on pure awe and unable to rest as a result. It has experienced that with both God and other entities.

To really understand Mr.Jim's post, we need to understand precisely what it means when we say God bes "holy". For this one it bes a catchall word stuck on pure awe where one thing cannot be separated out from another; you bes adoring the WHOLE Being, overwhelmed by awe and desire for Him. But on the other hand ... it bes overwhelmed by such feelings for Someone other than God before -- and "holy" bes not the word it would have used -- so there must be a different word or else "holy " must have a different meaning rather.... (its head hurts so it becomes confused)

Lisa0315 · Nov 18, 2007

Moriah_Conquering_Wind said:
It would like your permission to post in the Catacombs at some point.
Whenever you bes ready. You may givesy it any rules you wish it to abide by, save that you must make them exceptionally clear and specific because this one has trouble obeying anything vague.

Oh, Lord. I don't have a problem with you posting there. I do not know how the other members would feel though. It is not "my" club so much as I am just one of the founders. I think it would be wise for me to ask everyone first. Are you okay with that?

Lisa

Moriah_Conquering_Wind · Nov 18, 2007

Lisa0315 said:
Okay, remember that I said that I had come up with 4 possible explanations: From ~Elsewhere~

1) Punishment, 2) A lesson, 3) The effects of sin, even though it is forgiven, 4) I am an innocent bystander caught in the middle of the battle for my husband's soul.

In the Job reference, would any of these apply, Moriah?

I get saved, and my whole world crumbles.

Lisa

This one would vote #4. Bear in mind the Job paradigm may not be the one best fitting your situation. There bes also the general spiritual warfare paradigm, and that one bes big, tangled, complex and convoluted. Simplest way possible would be to separate your role in this from his. So what bes spiritual warfare where you enter it may be result of his sin where he enters it, or it may be a combination of both for you both with each of you having a proportion different leaning more heavily one or the other.

Tell this one more about precisely what DID happen, from human experiential (not trying to explain it) standpoint. Tellsy the events themselves, an it may better comprehend and help you.

Moriah_Conquering_Wind · Nov 18, 2007

Lisa0315 said:
Oh, Lord. I don't have a problem with you posting there. I do not know how the other members would feel though. It is not "my" club so much as I am just one of the founders. I think it would be wise for me to ask everyone first. Are you okay with that?
Lisa

Don't bother, they would not permit it, and they (SOME not all) may attack you for even trying to ask.

Moriah_Conquering_Wind · Nov 18, 2007

Lisa0315 said:
Explain more on the FULLNESS of the Job paradigm. It is so strange that we are talking of Job because in the early years, when the first and second heart attacks occurred, I read Job over and over, and the main thing I got out of it was to not charge God foolishly.

Did you see on page 1 it quoted the longer of its 2 posts from IIDB?
Specific questions bes easier to answer than general ones. What interests you in particular and what would you like explained by Moriah, or to discuss with her?

This one retires out back for a smoke and a think and maybe a pray if its inhabitants letsy. And will return 10-15 minutes.

Moriah_Conquering_Wind · Nov 18, 2007

It bes back now, bes you there?

The Mirror of Souls

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