The Millennium

[Mark G.]

Hello everyone

I have a question ...

Is the Millennium in this age or the age to come ?

Respectfully
Mark G.

 

[Tractor1]

Hello everyone

I have a question ...

Is the Millennium in this age or the age to come ?

Respectfully
Mark G.

It belongs to the following dispensation.

In Christ,
Tracey

 

[Mark G.]

Hello Tracey

If the millennium is in the coming age... What is the inaugural event of the millennium?

Where would you put Matt 25:31-46, is this speaking of the beginning or the end of the millennium?

"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. ... "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. ... "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Respectfully
Mark G.

 

[Tractor1]

Hello Tracey

If the millennium is in the coming age... What is the inaugural event of the millennium?

Where would you put Matt 25:31-46, is this speaking of the beginning or the end of the millennium?

"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. ... "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. ... "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Respectfully
Mark G.

The inaugural event will be the establishment of the King’s throne on Mount Zion (Ps. 2:6; Isa. 24:23), but your Scripture text (Matt. 25:31-46) is closely related. Those particular judgments shift Christ’s focus from Israel in (24:37-25:30) to the nations, but in each case the judgments are related closely to His second coming (24:29-31) prior to the millennial reign.

In Christ,
Tracey

 

[Mark G.]

The inaugural event will be the establishment of the King’s throne on Mount Zion (Ps. 2:6; Isa. 24:23), but your Scripture text (Matt. 25:31-46) is closely related. Those particular judgments shift Christ’s focus from Israel in (24:37-25:30) to the nations, but in each case the judgments are related closely to His second coming (24:29-31) prior to the millennial reign.

In Christ,
Tracey

Tracey

Would you agree that the harvest of this parable is descriptive of the end of this age ?

Matt 13:24-30 ... "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared. "The owner's servants came to him and said, 'Sir, didn't you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?' "'An enemy did this,' he replied. "The servants asked him, 'Do you want us to go and pull them up?' "'No,' he answered, 'because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.'"

Respectfully
Mark G.

 

[Tractor1]

Tracey

Would you agree that the harvest of this parable is descriptive of the end of this age ?

Matt 13:24-30 ... "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared. "The owner's servants came to him and said, 'Sir, didn't you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?' "'An enemy did this,' he replied. "The servants asked him, 'Do you want us to go and pull them up?' "'No,' he answered, 'because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.'"

Respectfully
Mark G.

I believe the harvest to be descriptive of judgment at the second coming of Christ, but the order of the gathering isn't significant as illustrated in the final Parable of the Dragnet (vs. 48).

In Christ,
Tracey

 

[Mark G.]

I believe the harvest to be descriptive of judgment at the second coming of Christ, but the order of the gathering isn't significant as illustrated in the final Parable of the Dragnet (vs. 48).

In Christ,
Tracey

Do you believe the judgment at the end of this age to be all inclusive... sheep and goats, good fish bad fish, will all who have lived and those who are still alive at his coming "appear before the judgment seat of Christ" at that time ?

John 5:28-29 "Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out-- those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.

Matt 13:39 ... The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

Matt 13:49 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous

Respectfully
Mark G.

 

[nwmsugrad]

John 5:28-29 is not referring to the same judgment as Matt 25:31-46. The sheep and the goats in the later judgment are (faithful) believing and unbelieving gentiles who live through the Great Tribulation. Unfaithful believers will not be present because the will not survive this 7 year period. Present day believers will not be present because the will already be raptured. My brothers in the passage in question refers to believing Jews. Unbelieving Jews will be purged out and judged at the great white throne judgment (John 5:29).

 

[Tractor1]

Do you believe the judgment at the end of this age to be all inclusive... sheep and goats, good fish bad fish, will all who have lived and those who are still alive at his coming "appear before the judgment seat of Christ" at that time ?

John 5:28-29 "Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out-- those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.

Matt 13:39 ... The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

Matt 13:49 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous

Respectfully
Mark G.

No, I don’t believe the judgment associated with (Matt. 25:31-46) will be all inclusive. Many err in contending there is but one judgment by merging several others into this particular one. The Scripture text we’ve been discussing deals only with the judgment of the nations at the close of the great tribulation and is based on the question of their relation to Israel (vss. 40, 45). All nations on earth will be judged with some peoples being dismissed to the lake of fire, while others will enter the kingdom with Israel. The latter are the sheep nations and the former are the goat nations.

Regarding your assertion that this particular judgment takes place "before the judgment seat of Christ," I can't agree. The judgment in (Matt. 25:31-46) takes place before Christ's glorious throne. This is the earthly throne of David (2 Sam. 7:16; Ps. 89:36; Luke 1:32) to which Christ is Heir, and on which He will be seated (Ps. 2:6).

In Christ,
Tracey

 

[Mark G.]

John 5:28-29 is not referring to the same judgment as Matt 25:31-46. The sheep and the goats in the later judgment are (faithful) believing and unbelieving gentiles who live through the Great Tribulation. Unfaithful believers will not be present because the will not survive this 7 year period. Present day believers will not be present because the will already be raptured. My brothers in the passage in question refers to believing Jews. Unbelieving Jews will be purged out and judged at the great white throne judgment (John 5:29).

I would love it if you could show me with scripture until then I'' have to say that your conclusion is illogical... Show me any passage that says there is more than just the final judgment. What I see is "the" judgment. Matt 12:41, Matt 12:42, Luke 10:14, Luke 11:31, Luke 11:32, Acts 24:25, Rom 5:16 and 2 Cor 5:10...

Look at the results of both John and Matthew they are the same... John 5 good will rise to live, evil will rise to be condemned. Matt 13:49 separate the wicked from the righteous Matt 25:46 goats to eternal punishment, sheep to eternal life."

Review the parable of the sower Matt 13:3-9, Matt 13:18-23, Mark 4:19, Mark 4:14-20, Luke 8:5-8 and Luke 8:11-15 then ponder the possiblity that there is only one judgment... The final one at the end of the millennium...

Matt 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.'"

Matt 13:39 ... The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

Matt 24:30-31 "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Rev 14:15-16 ... "Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe." So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.

Matt 13:49-50 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matt 25:46 "Then they (the goats) will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

II Th 1:7 ... This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels.

1 Cor 15:24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

Respectfully
Mark G.

 

[Mark G.]

No, I don’t believe the judgment associated with (Matt. 25:31-46) will be all inclusive. Many err in contending there is but one judgment by merging several others into this particular one. The Scripture text we’ve been discussing deals only with the judgment of the nations at the close of the great tribulation and is based on the question of their relation to Israel (vss. 40, 45). All nations on earth will be judged with some peoples being dismissed to the lake of fire, while others will enter the kingdom with Israel. The latter are the sheep nations and the former are the goat nations.

Regarding your assertion that this particular judgment takes place "before the judgment seat of Christ," I can't agree. The judgment in (Matt. 25:31-46) takes place before Christ's glorious throne. This is the earthly throne of David (2 Sam. 7:16; Ps. 89:36; Luke 1:32) to which Christ is Heir, and on which He will be seated (Ps. 2:6).

In Christ,
Tracey

Please oh please show me where it says that ??? if you are refering to matthew 25 which I believe you are, it does not say enter the kingdom... it says eternal life... better to let scripture say what is says instead of paraphrasing it... don't you think?

Respectfully
Mark G.

 

[Tractor1]

Please oh please show me where it says that ??? if you are refering to matthew 25 which I believe you are, it does not say enter the kingdom... it says eternal life... better to let scripture say what is says instead of paraphrasing it... don't you think?

Respectfully
Mark G.

"Then the King will say to those on His right, Come, you who are blesssed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world" (Matt. 25:34 NASB).

In Christ,
Tracey

 

[nwmsugrad]

Mark,

You have given us a lot to look at. Before we look at the dispensationalist interpretation of Matt 24 & 25. Lets look at 2 Cor 5:10

2 Corinthians 5:10 (NASB95)
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

Who are the we referred to in this passage? We refers to all believers in this passage and includes Paul himself. Notice that at this judgment believers will be recompensed for deeds done in the body whether good or bad. Can unbelievers perform deeds in the body (good or bad deeds) when they are outside of the body?

Lets look at another passage which discusses the same judgment that only believers will be present at.

1 Corinthians 3:13-15 (NASB95)
13 each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work.
14 If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.
15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

Notice that everyone at this judgment even the man who only produced “bad works” is saved. Compare the results with another judgment (The Great White Throne) where everyone present is condemned to the lake of fire (Rev 20:11-15).

 

[Tractor1]

I would love it if you could show me with scripture until then I'' have to say that your conclusion is illogical... Show me any passage that says there is more than just the final judgment.
Respectfully
Mark G.

The Judgment of the Cross: Sin has been judged by Christ as Substitute for all. The believer has been condemned, sentenced, and executed in the Person of his Substitute (John 5:24; Rom. 5:9; 8:1; 2Cor. 5:21; Gal. 3:13; Heb. 9:26-28; 10:10, 14-17; 1 Pet. 2:24). In connection it may be said that Satan has been judged at the cross (John 16:11; Col. 2:14-15).

The Judgment of Self: The saved are warned to judge themselves (1 Cor. 11:31-32). Judgment from God will not take place if believers are faithful in judging themselves (1 John 1:9).

The Judgment of Believers: In keeping with the above, this judgment is experienced by believers only when confession and self judgment is lacking. The central passage on chastisement is found in (Heb. 12:3-15).

The Judgment of the Believers Works: All who are saved must come before the Bema Seat or Judgment Seat of Christ (2 Cor. 5:10). Although the believers sins have been judged at the cross and will not be brought up again, this judgment is in regard to works and service.

The Judgment of Israel: Before entering the kingdom and at the end of the great tribulation Israel must come into judgment. The central passage is (Ezek. 20:33-44, see also Matt. 24:9-25:30; Joel 3:11-15).

The Judgment of the Nations: This is the judgment we’ve been discussing (Matt. 25:31-46).

The Judgment of the Great White Throne: The major passage for this judgment is (Rev. 20:11-15). All unsaved humanity must be raised to judgment (John 5:28-29).

As you’ve stated, the Word of God must stand as it is. Comparing the events put forth in the judgment of the nations (Matt. 25:31-46) with those of the great white throne shows they are not one and the same.

In Christ,
Tracey

 

[Mark G.]

"Then the King will say to those on His right, Come, you who are blesssed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world" (Matt. 25:34 NASB).

In Christ,
Tracey

Lets see, how does that go. Open mouth insert foot...

Respectfully
Mark G.

 

[Mark G.]

Lets look at another passage which discusses the same judgment that only believers will be present at.

1 Corinthians 3:13-15 (NASB95)
13 each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work.
14 If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.
15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

Notice that everyone at this judgment even the man who only produced “bad works” is saved. Compare the results with another judgment (The Great White Throne) where everyone present is condemned to the lake of fire (Rev 20:11-15).

I say lets look at 1 Cor. in comparison with other passages. Perhaps 1 Cor is only speaking of one aspect of the judgment.

Rom 2:5-8
5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.
6 God "will give to each person according to what he has done."
7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.


II Th 1:7-10
7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels.
8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power
10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.


Rev 20:12-15
12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.
14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.
15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Respectfully
Mark G.

 

[Mark G.]

Hello Tracey

You said

The Judgment of the Great White Throne: The major passage for this judgment is (Rev. 20:11-15). All unsaved humanity must be raised to judgment (John 5:28-29).

How on earth do you get just "all unsaved" out of John 5:28-29 ???

John 5:28-29 "Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out-- those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.

Do the unsaved rise to live ? I think not, rather, they rise to be condemed... So then, who are those who rise to live ??? Those that are in the grave at his return shall hear his voice and come forth to judgment; the good, to the resurrection of life; the evil, to the resurrection of damnation...

Respectfully
Mark G.

 

[Mark G.]

The Judgment of the Nations: This is the judgment we’ve been discussing (Matt. 25:31-46).

The Judgment of the Great White Throne: The major passage for this judgment is (Rev. 20:11-15). All unsaved humanity must be raised to judgment (John 5:28-29).

As you’ve stated, the Word of God must stand as it is. Comparing the events put forth in the judgment of the nations (Matt. 25:31-46) with those of the great white throne shows they are not one and the same.

In Christ,
Tracey

Because Revelation 20:11-15 does not mention the righteous per say. This does not equate that this is not another description of the judgment of Matthew 25. Clearly the justice metered out to the goats and those not found written in he book of life are the same, just different descriptions... In Matthew eternal punishment in Revelation the lake of fire...

Respectfully
Mark G.

 

[Dave Taylor]

Matthew 25, the believers get eternal life...the unbelievers get cast into the fire.

Revelation 20, the believers are found in the Book of Life, and we see in the next chapter, they will be the only ones found in the New Jerusalem...and again, the unbelievers get cast into the fire.

No different than the teaching in either
1) Matthew 13's Wheat/Tare passage
2) Matthew 13's Good/Bad Fish passage
3) Matthew 20's Garment/No Garment passage
4) Matthew 25's Good/Bad Virgin passage
5) Matthew 25's Good/Bad Steward passage
6) Luke 17's Kept/taken to destruction passage
7) John 5's resurrection to eternal life/damnation passage
8) I Thessalonian 4-5's gathering of the righteous and destruction of the wicked passage
9) 2 Thessalonian 1's keeping of the believers/feiry destruction of the wicked passage
10) 2 Thessalonian 2's gathering of believers to Christ at the 2nd Advent/destruction of the wicked with the brightness of His Advent
11) 2 Peter's promise of the faithful and destruction of the wicked in fire

Scripture is repleat over and over again, teaching that at the final judgment day, the wicked will be cast into the fire; and the redeemed will be united with Christ and enter into His glory.

 

[Tractor1]

Hello Tracey

You said
How on earth do you get just "all unsaved" out of John 5:28-29 ???
Do the unsaved rise to live ? I think not, rather, they rise to be condemed... So then, who are those who rise to live ??? Those that are in the grave at his return shall hear his voice and come forth to judgment; the good, to the resurrection of life; the evil, to the resurrection of damnation...

Respectfully
Mark G.

I was only using (John 5:28-29) to show that those who committed evil deeds are the same who are judged at the great white throne.

While in the above passage Christ does teach that the resurrection is universal He doesn't say whether or not there will be a time interval between the two classes. But, Jesus' germinal teachings are usually expanded upon in the Epistles and Revelation, and it holds true in this case. In (1 Cor. 15:20-26) the universal character is again shown, but with the added truth of differing companies in resurrection with intervals of time between them. Christ is raised first; then those who are Christ's at His coming, which means more than nineteen hundred years have gone by; and finally the end of the resurrection program, with a thousand years between, where all opposition is put down forever (Rev. 20:1-6, 12-15).

In Christ,
Tracey