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The Meaning of Predestination to this Non Calvinist

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Bible2

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[This is a reply to a thread in the General Theology
forum, which forum is currrently closed.]

Emmy posted in message #77

If by Predestination you mean that some of us are
already saved, whether they will believe their good
works will save them, or whether they believe that
good works are not necessary, then I cannot see where
our free Will to choose to follow Christ, comes in.

Predestination doesn't meam that some of us are
already saved before we are born, but that some of
us, before we are born, are elected (chosen) by God
to be offered His mercy during our lifetime, while
others of us are, before we are born, not elected by
God to be offered His mercy, but will only receive
His wrath (Romans 9:11-22).

No one can choose to follow Christ unless God gives
them that ability (John 6:44,65, Ephesians 2:8), and
He doesn't give the unelect that ability, but gives
it only to the elect (2 Thessalonians 2:13, Acts
13:48). But this doesn't mean that God forces the
elect to choose to follow Christ; they can still
employ their free will to harden their hearts
(Hebrews 3:15) instead of choosing to follow Christ.

Regarding good works, they can't save us, only faith
in Jesus can (John 3:36). But without good works of
faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6), a faith
in Jesus is dead (James 2:17,26), and cannot save us
(James 2:24, Matthew 7:21).
 
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Bible2

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Emmy posted in message #77:

A Christian must Repent, exchange the old selfish
man, for a new, selflessly loving and caring one.
Then follow Jesus back to our Heavenly Father, and
our original home in Heaven.

The Bible never says that Heaven was our original
home; indeed, the Bible never teaches the pre-
existence of souls, the idea that we existed as
spirits in Heaven before we entered into human
bodies on this earth.

While this idea doesn't contradict the Bible, and
is harmless in itself, a danger lies in the other
ideas that people can connect with it, such as the
idea that the elect are elected by God because of
their goodness in their pre-existence. This leads some
people to boast that they're saved because they're
better than others. But the truth is that no one can
boast over their salvation (Ephesians 2:8-9). We
can't think that we're better than others (Romans
3:9-12). We're saved wholly by God's mercy, and not
because of any good works that we did in some pre-
existence or in this life (Titus 3:5).

Another idea that gets connected with the idea of
pre-existence of souls is the Gnostic idea of the
Pleroma and the Fall, which goes something like
this: "We all existed as free and happy spirits in
the Pleroma (Heaven) until something terrible
happened and we all fell like little sparks of light
into this dark and evil universe of matter, which
was created as a prisonhouse by a demiurge (god)
named YHWH, the evil god of the Old Testament. It is
the tyrant YHWH who is now trapping us in our
physical bodies on this earth. But the Spirit of
Christ came down from the Pleroma (Heaven) to rescue
us out of YHWH's hands, and his cruel law, and this
awful universe of matter, and take us as free spirits
back into our original home in the Pleroma (Heaven)".

One can see how the Gnostics might logically arrive
at such lies from the simple premise of the pre-
existence of souls in Heaven. They could reason as
follows: "If our original home was in Heaven, then
our dwelling on this Earth must be evil by comparison.
And if it's evil, then it couldn't possibly be the
work of any good and loving God, but must be the work
of an evil entity. And if the Old Testament says that
our living in physical bodies on this earth is the
work of YHWH, then YHWH must be evil".

Of course, to reason in this way, the Gnostics have
to reject the truth that when YHWH created this
earth and placed humans and all other life on it,
everything YHWH created was very good (Genesis 1:31).
It was humans themselves who chose to fall into sin,
so that the world then became evil.

But the Gnostics could say, "No, it must have started
out evil because what free spirit would want to leave
total bliss in a pure and spiritual Heaven and come
down to live in a filthy, fleshly body in a world
made up of dirty matter?"

But that question just assumes the wrong ideas of
Gnosticism, for there's nothing filthy about fleshly
bodies in themselves, or dirty about matter in itself.
Christ took on a fleshly body (John 1:14) just like
ours (Hebrews 2:16-18) and He did not become filthy
(Hebrews 4:15). Even after His resurrection, He
remains in a fleshly body (Luke 24:39-43), so there's
nothing evil about fleshly bodies in themselves. And
the fact that every material thing that God created
was created very good (Genesis 1:31) proves that
there's nothing evil about matter in itself.

But this is the core misunderstanding of Gnosticism,
and the reason that it denies that Christ is in the
flesh. John the apostle called this Gnostic denial
the doctrine of antichrist (1 John 4:3). This means
that it'll be one of the teachings of the Antichrist,
which means that the Antichrist could also employ
other lies of Gnosticism to drive the world away from
the God of the Bible (YHWH) and into the arms of a
wholly-spiritual Christ, one that is not the man Jesus
(1 John 2:22) but some wholly-spiritual entity, which
he could say is none other than Lucifer, for Lucifer
(Isaiah 14:12) is the morning star and Christ is the
morning star (Revelation 22:16).

The truth is that Lucifer fell from his office of
morning star (Isaiah 14:12) and became Satan (Luke
10:18). Jesus then took over the office of morning
star (Revelation 22:16).

The Antichrist could deny these truths and say that
no, Lucifer isn't Satan, it is YHWH who is Satan,
just as 1 Chronicles 21:1 and 2 Samuel 24:1 show,
for they show that YHWH/Satan moved David.

But the truth is that all 1 Chronicles 21:1 and
2 Samuel 24:1 show is that YHWH used Satan to move
David. Elsewhere, YHWH rebukes Satan (Zechariah 3:2).
And Jesus supported the Old Testament teaching that
it's YHWH who's God (Mark 12:29-34, Deuteronomy 6:4-5,
Leviticus 19:18b).

The Antichrist could say that all of the Biblical
passages supporting YHWH are just his propaganda,
easily seen-through by those illuminated by Lucifer.

And this will be the crux of the Antichrist's
deception: that the Bible is a lie, while what he's
teaching is the truth.

But Jesus said that we have to live by every word
of the Bible (Matthew 4:4, Deuteronomy 8:3b). We
have to continue in God's Word if we are to be saved
(John 8:31b, James 1:21b). We mustn't turn away from
God's Word to run after some teachings of some man
(2 Timothy 4:2-4) or devil (1 Timothy 4:1) or
purported angel of light (2 Corinthians 11:14).

But the Antichrist could scoff at all such Biblical
passages and say that they're just more propaganda by
YHWH. Then he could call forth his False Prophet and
say to the world: "Enough words! That's all these
JESUS Christians have, those vile words of YHWH. Let
us prove our bona fides to you by our miracles; they
will be the proof that what I'm teaching is the
truth".

And so the Antichrist will have his False Prophet
perform amazing miracles which will convince the
world to follow the Antichrist (Revelation 13:13-18,
19:20) and worship him and the dragon Lucifer
(Revelation 13:4-8).

But Jesus warned us not to follow anyone just because
of his miracles (Matthew 24:24), for those of the
Antichrist will be performed by the power of Satan,
not God (2 Thessalonians 2:9).

So we're back to God's Word: it's not by miracles,
but by the Bible that we know what is truth and what
is falsehood, what is righteousness and what is
wickedness (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

But Paul said that the time will come when people
won't be able to stand the sound doctrine of the
Bible, but will listen to fables instead (2 Timothy
4:3-4). One of these fables could be the ancient
Gnostic fable of the Pleroma and the Fall, with YHWH
as our evil imprisoner. The Antichrist could teach
this fable in a new way, using some modern terms. He
could say: "We were all wholly-spiritual beings up in
Heaven when YHWH suggested that we play a game. We
trusted YHWH back then because he hadn't yet shown
his evil nature. He said that he had created a
holographic artificial reality (this universe) which
was really neat and that we should all check it out."

The Antichrist could go on: "So YHWH opened this door
into a holodeck that was projecting a matter-hologram
of this beautiful planet (this earth) filled with
wonderful animals and plants and flowers and oceans
and waterfalls and innumerable other physical wonders.
We all wanted to go inside and explore it, but YHWH
said that we couldn't interact with the things in the
matter-hologram without taking on matter-bodies
ourselves, which would be nothing more than our
letting him temporarily lock us into special suits.
Only then could we pet the animals and smell the
flowers and swim in the oceans. If we refused to put
on matter-bodies and chose to walk around in the
matter-hologram without them, then it would just be
like nothing more than looking at pictures. We could
see everything okay, but not interact with anything".

The Antichrist could continue: "Anyway, so many of
us in Heaven agreed to temporarily put on matter-
body suits so that we could go into the earth-
hologram and interact with everything and have a lot
of fun. But then YHWH added something else. He said,
'Look, you might get bored after a while playing in
my hologram, so let's make it more interesting by
pretending that we actually live there. I'll
hypnotize you guys so you'll forget all about Heaven
and think that the hologram is real and that you
are really made up of matter. Then you can have
amazing experiences thinking that they're all the
real thing. Then, after a while, I'll bring you
guys out of hypnosis, but in a way that'll let you
remember all of your amazing experiences. What do
you think?'. A lot of us thought that it sounded
pretty good. You have to understand that in Heaven
you live forever, and there is an eternity of time
to fill up. So any new, exciting way to pass the
time is usually explored by most people".

The Antichrist could go on: "But Christ/Lucifer
spoke up and said to all of us, 'This idea of
getting hypnotized so that you forget who you really
are doesn't sound like such a good idea. What if
YHWH is unable to bring you out of the hypnotic
spell?' But YHWH said, 'Test me! Here, if just one
of you guys will volunteer I'll show you how this
will work'. So one of us stepped forward and YHWH
locked him in a matter-suit and he walked into the
hologram. Then YHWH hypnotized him so that he'd
forget all about Heaven and who he really was and
think that he was just a little physical human on
the planet earth. Then the guy walked away into the
hologram and we watched him pet some of the animals
and eat some fruit from a tree and lay down on the
grass and feel the warm sun on his face, and do
all sorts of other pleasant things. After a while,
YHWH went into the hologram and woke the guy up
out of his hypnotic trance. Then the guy walked out
of the hologram, and as YHWH was unlocking him from
his matter-suit, the guy said to us, 'Wow! That was
cool! I really thought that I lived on the earth. It
was amazing! You guys have gotta try it. I'm going to
do it again, but you guys have to come with me this
time because I got kind of lonesone there all by
myself'. So this little 'test' convinced many of us
that it would be okay to have YHWH hypnotize us".

The Antichrist could continue: "So we let YHWH put
matter-suits on us and we walked into the hologram
and he hypnotized us. We had fun for a while but then
things started getting ugly. For just one example,
YHWH had a lion jump out and bite the leg of one of
us. It was horrible because that person felt real
pain because of the matter-suit and thought that what
was happening to him was real, as did we. We all
started screaming and crying, but YHWH was laughing
and laughing. He thought our misery was funny, just
as he still does today (Proverbs 1:26, Job 9:23).
Christ/Lucifer, who never agreed to put on a matter-
suit or be hypnotized, told YHWH to stop the game
immediately and wake all of us up. YHWH refused,
and even locked the door to the hologram so that
Christ/Lucifer couldn't come in and save us".

The Antichrist could go on: "Then a division arose
in Heaven between those who didn't choose to enter
into the hologram. Some sided with YHWH and thought
that his prank was brilliant and that Christ/Lucifer
was over-reacting. YHWH then convinced them that
it would be a good thing for them if they joined
with him to keep us out of Heaven and locked away
in the hologram forever. On the other hand, Christ/
Lucifer was able to convince many in heaven that
YHWH's prank was truly vile and that he and his
cronies must be stopped in their plan to keep us
locked in this material universe forever. So a war
broke out in Heaven. The forces of Christ/Lucifer
were able to break open the locked door to the
hologram so that they could come into it and try to
save us. But the forces of YHWH came in too to try to
deceive us into thinking that they're the good guys
and the forces of Christ/Lucifer are evil. So the war
in Heaven is now also going on in this universe,
where what we call good and bad angels are actually
people from Heaven who never let YHWH lock them into
matter-suits and hypnotize them. Some are for us and
some are against us".

The Antichrist could continue: "But it turns out that
YHWH's hypnotic spell is so powerful that not everyone
agrees to be snapped out of it. When an 'angel' of
Christ/Lucifer comes to them and tells them the words
to bring them out of the spell, only some people come
out of it, while others think that what the 'angel' of
Christ/Lucifer is saying is evil and that they have to
keep on following YHWH, have to remain in his spell,
if they aren't to burn in hell forever".

The Antichrist could go on: "Now look, if you remain
under YHWH's spell you will burn in hell forever;
he will see to it. But it's just another room in the
holodeck; it isn't real, just as this earth isn't
real. They're just matter-holograms that the evil
YHWH wants to torture you in so he can get his kicks.
What's real is Heaven, Spirit. Let the Spirit of
Christ/Lucifer wake your Spirit up from your spell
and you won't have to stay on this earth or go to
YHWH's hell. But I do have to tell you that even after
we're all awake, it's going to take a fight, at
Armageddon, to be able to defeat YHWH and his cronies
from Heaven, and break our way out of this holodeck
universe back into Heaven. But if we are all united
and fight together, and are led by the valiant Christ/
Lucifer, we will be able to defeat YHWH and his
cronies at Armageddon and finally return to our
original home in Heaven".

In the future, the Antichrist could teach something
like this fable to convince the world to follow him
and Lucifer, and to reject YHWH as evil. And the
world's acceptance of something like this fable will
require that it first accept the premises that our
original home was in Heaven, and that this material
universe is somehow evil in itself.

But the Bible nowhere teaches these things. And it
even says that God will one day create a new earth
and descend out of Heaven to dwell with us on the
new earth (Revelation 21:1-3). So our true hope is
not to dwell in Heaven, but to have God Himself come
down out of Heaven and live with us on a new earth,
which will be wonderful.
 
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Bible2

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Jesusfreak5000 posted in message #80:

We place faith in Christ (although it is
irresistable), there is a choice made, in that we see
the truth and we respond.

Actually, God's gift to the elect of faith in Christ
(Ephesians 2:8, Acts 13:48b) isn't irresistible,
for even the elect can harden their hearts against
God (Hebrews 3:15), and refuse to receive a love of
the truth (2 Thessalonians 2:10-12), or receive it
only to subsequently depart from it (1 Timothy 4:1),
thereby losing their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8).
 
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Bible2

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toirewadokodesuka posted in message #82:

"Originally Posted by Bible2
Yes, when the Bible refers to men being able to
choose what they do, as in Joshua 24:15, that means
that men have free will, for if they had no free
will then they would have no choice what they did."

Joshua was speaking to the people about forsaking
their gods and following his God. To choose God over
their gods, (put it that way.)

Right, and the fact that they had a choice proves
that they had free will.

toirewadokodesuka posted in message #82:

But you are discussing the "implications" of choice
(in general) from your own understanding of what it
is, which is why I said :

"No offense, but this is a very juvenile way of
looking at things."

Philosophies of choice differ from culture to
religion to personality. You may think choice is
somehow disjounted from the environment. To others,
choice is determined by the self and the environment.
And thus, God has everything to do with everything
we think and do.

Choice/free-will is the ability to determine for
oneself what one does. This ability isn't disjointed
from the environment or from one's own physical
limitations, insofar as the environment and one's own
physical limitations will restrict one's options
regarding what one does. For example, while someone is
in the middle of the Sahara desert he can't choose to
swim in the ocean, and someone who has no arms can't
choose to play basketball. But choice/free-will in
itself isn't the ability to do whatever one can
imagine, regardless of one's environment or physical
limitations. Instead, it's the ability to determine
for oneself what one does within the context of one's
environment and physical limitations.

This is not the same as saying that one's environment
and physical limitations determine what one ends up
choosing to actually do. For one's choice/free-will
operates without any outside determining force; if
it didn't, it wouldn't be choice/free-will, but
nothing but a marionette operated by the hands of
outside forces.

God doesn't have everything to do with everything
that we think and do. For example, He has nothing to
do with our choosing to commit sin; He doesn't even
tempt us to commit sin (James 1:13-15).

toirewadokodesuka posted in message #82:

He doesn't necessarily have to control what we do
directly, but perhaps he is an aspect of our
manifestations? And in that case, I don't think
responsibiity can be absolutely attributed to the
self. (Again, unless you know everything?)

God not only doesn't control what we do directly, He
is in no way an aspect of our manifestations of sin,
for in Him is light, and in Him is no darkness at all
(1 John 1:5-7). This is why responsibiity can be
absolutely attributed to the self regarding sin; God
will judge every individual for his sins
(2 Corinthians 5:10-11).

God's Holy Spirit can guide us to know all truth
(John 16:13; 1 John 2:27) that we need to know in
order to live righteously in this life (2 Timothy
3:16).
 
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Bible2

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toirewadokodesuka posted in message #83:

"Originally Posted by Bible2
All choices are caused by free will in the sense that
no outside force can ever make you make a certain
choice; it's always up to you. If it weren't, it
wouldn't be called your choice."

So, if our thoughts/actions are not determined by
our environment, what are they determined by?

What we actually end up doing is determined by our
free-will/choice (Deuteronomy 23:16, Joshua 24:15),
even though our options for action may have been
limited by our environment and/or our bodies'
limitations.
 
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Drwhat

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Hi Bible2,
What utter nonsense. How is God sovereign in your heart and mind if you think you have a free-will, how the devil is decieving billions with such unscriptural claptrap. All will be saved simply because God has predestined it to be that way.

Happy hunting as you take a good long think about your deception.
 
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Van

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Hi Bible2, thanks for a clear presentation of the Arminian view of predestination. I believe your view is incorrect and here is why:

Premise 1, "some of us are elected to be offered mercy." This contention is supposedly supported by Romans 9:11-22. But is we look at the passage what do we find? That God elects some for a purpose unconditionally, without regard to any characteristic or attribute of those elected. And this election is not an example of a resistible call or any other sort of call. The older did serve the younger. And it was according to God who is Him who calls us to Christ. In verse 16 we see that "it" does not depend on the man that wills or runs, but upon God. And the it is God having mercy upon someone or not. If God decides to have mercy on a person, the person cannot resist His will, verse 19. So why does God find fault? Because the call to salvation is resistible. The order is many are called, but few are chosen. Your view turns this into many are chosen (to be called), but only a few choose not to resist the call. Not what scripture says. God has mercy upon those who respond to the call in faith, but does not have mercy on those who stumble over the stumbling stone.

Premise 2 "no one can choose to follow Christ unless God gives them the ability." This is supposedly supported by a number of verses, but let's take a look.

No one can come to Christ unless the Father draws him, John 6:44. All this is saying is no one can come to Christ unless they have been exposed to God's Word and the gospel of Christ, which draws us to Christ. For example the Law is a tutor which leads us to Christ. Or, if we see Christ high and lifted up, as described in the gospel, we will be drawn to Christ. But we must hear and learn from our exposure to Christ, John 6:45.

"No one can come to Christ unless granted by the Father, John 6:65. All this says is God must allow a person to come to Christ, if He hardens our heart for His purpose, as He did in Romans 11 to the disbelieving Jews, then they could not come to Christ. So God does preclude some, but this is an exception, not the general rule.

Ephesians 2:8 say salvation is a gift from God, it does not say our ability to respond to the gospel in faith is a gift from God. Greek grammar (the gender of the pronoun is different than the gender of the noun translated faith) precludes the possibility that the gift is faith.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 says God has chosen us from the beginning through (1) sanctification by the Spirit and (2) through faith in the truth. So when God credits our faith as righteousness (Romans 4:5), that is God choosing us through faith in the truth, and when God places us spiritually "in Christ" (1 Corinthians 1:30) that is God choosing us through sanctification by the Spirit.

Acts 13:48 says those at were appointed - who accepted Paul's direction to eternal life - believed. The word here translated appointed refers to an agreement, such as agreeing to meet Jesus at the time and location Jesus specified.

The correct view is that most folks have the ability to respond to the gospel in faith, but some do not. In the parable of the four soils, the first soil had lost whatever ability it had, and could not hear and learn from the Father any longer. Those represented by that soil had hardened their heart with the practice of sin, and what little spiritual ability they initially had had been taken away. But the other kinds of soils still had some degree of ability to respond and with cultivation could have become as the fourth soil.
 
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calluna

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No one can choose to follow Christ unless God gives them that ability (John 6:44,65, Ephesians 2:8), and
He doesn't give the unelect that ability
He gives everyone the ability by dying for everyone. Everyone has the choice to make of who is going to run their life, God, or self.
 
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itisdeliciouscake

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wow.........

you don't consider yourself a calvinist? your theological views are almost exactly that of standard calvinistic views...

the only thing i personally disagree with you about is if God elects a person i personally believe that his grace is irresistible. but i suppose that's an understandable topic to disagree on.
 
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Van

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Sometimes a statement can be literally true and utterly false. God is merciful. So by His very attribute He offers to have mercy upon us. That is why, over and over in God's word, we see folks crying out to God, "Have mercy on me."

Now God can show mercy in many ways, but one of those ways is to forgive our sins. So the offer of the gospel is in fact an offer by God to show mercy upon those who trust in Christ with all their heart.
 
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nobdysfool

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Directed to the anti-Calvinists:

Mat 23:15 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves.
 
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beloved57

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Sometimes a statement can be literally true and utterly false. God is merciful. So by His very attribute He offers to have mercy upon us. That is why, over and over in God's word, we see folks crying out to God, "Have mercy on me."

Now God can show mercy in many ways, but one of those ways is to forgive our sins. So the offer of the gospel is in fact an offer by God to show mercy upon those who trust in Christ with all their heart.

God either shows[haves] mercy on one or He doesnt..rom 9:

15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

There is no offer, God either does or does not..you or I cannot control who God has mercy on..
 
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Van

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Hi Beloved57, the offer of the gospel is in fact an offer of mercy by God. You can deny that God is merciful, that God has mercy on folks of His choosing, and His offer of mercy contained in the gospel of Christ till the cows come home. Whoever believes in Him shall not perish is in fact an offer to have mercy on believers. QED
 
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