The Mary Problem (consciousness)

[underpressure]

Came across this watching a video in another thread... basically it goes something like this...

Mary has lived in a cave all her life, she knows everything there is to know about neuroscience from her computer with a black and white monitor. For the first time, she leaves the cave, and experiences colours, like the colour 'red' for the very first time. Did she gain new knowledge when she experienced 'red'?

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Came across this watching a video in another thread... basically it goes something like this...

Mary has lived in a cave all her life, she knows everything there is to know about neuroscience from her computer with a black and white monitor. For the first time, she leaves the cave, and experiences colours, like the colour 'red' for the very first time. Did she gain new knowledge when she experienced 'red'?

There's not much more to say that isn't already covered here. In my opinion, she does learn something new: the subjective experience of seeing the colour red, something that can't be described wholly by a third party.

 

[underpressure]

There's not much more to say that isn't already covered here. In my opinion, she does learn something new: the subjective experience of seeing the colour red, something that can't be described wholly by a third party.

Thanks. So would you say (without wanting to put words into your mouth) that not all knowledge can be explained by its physical processes? I'm undecided on this at this very moment.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Thanks. So would you say (without wanting to put words into your mouth) that not all knowledge can be explained by its physical processes? I'm undecided on this at this very moment.

Oh I think it is ultimately all physical processes, but those processes create subjective experiences that can't be experienced in any other way than, well, experiencing them. No matter how much you know about the mechanics of neurology, you still won't have seen redness for yourself. So the phenomenon is ultimately physical, but it can't be experienced by simply knowing how it's formed.

 

[KCfromNC]

Thanks. So would you say (without wanting to put words into your mouth) that not all knowledge can be explained by its physical processes? I'm undecided on this at this very moment.

Maybe, but nothing in this story has any bearing on that question. It's just highlighting that perhaps certain types of knowledge can only be gained by experience. No need for magic there.

Like many other similar arguments, this one seems to assume it's conclusion. That is, it assumes that Mary learns everything physically possible about red but then assumes that means she doesn't learn the experience of red. But that in itself assumes that the experience of red isn't part of the set of the set of physical things which can be learned - which is exactly what it's trying to prove in the first place. Sure, maybe it's a correct assumption but assuming your conclusions aren't the way to prove it.

 

[underpressure]

Maybe, but nothing in this story has any bearing on that question. It's just highlighting that perhaps certain types of knowledge can only be gained by experience. No need for magic there.

Like many other similar arguments, this one seems to assume it's conclusion. That is, it assumes that Mary learns everything physically possible about red but then assumes that means she doesn't learn the experience of red. But that in itself assumes that the experience of red isn't part of the set of the set of physical things which can be learned - which is exactly what it's trying to prove in the first place. Sure, maybe it's a correct assumption but assuming your conclusions aren't the way to prove it.

Yes, I see what you're saying, and I agree, and in actual fact I think it's probably a poor assumption in the thought experiment, as if Mary really is an expert, she would know exactly what part of the brain and exactly how the brain interprets red, and with that information it doesn't sound too far theoretically fetched that she could have a fiddle with her brain neurons and "trick" her brain into experiencing red.

Thanks for pointing out that assumption!

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Yes, I see what you're saying, and I agree, and in actual fact I think it's probably a poor assumption in the thought experiment, as if Mary really is an expert, she would know exactly what part of the brain and exactly how the brain interprets red, and with that information it doesn't sound too far theoretically fetched that she could have a fiddle with her brain neurons and "trick" her brain into experiencing red.

Nothing like probing your own brain with electrodes