The Marriage Thread - Why is there no "until death do us part" in Orthodox Marriages?

[MariaRegina]

These seem to be perennially hard questions:

1. Why are the marriage vows, especially "until death do us part" absent in an Orthodox Crowning Service?

a. Does the service imply that marriage is forever.
b. Are the words "until death do us part" scriptural or a legal requirement of the state?​

2. Is marriage forever?

a. On the one hand, if it is forever, then why does the Orthodox Church sometimes grant a blessing to allow for a second or even a third marriage?
b. Isn't blessing a second or a third marriage while the original spouses remain alive actually blessing an adulterous relationship?
c. Isn't this a rationalization or an accommodation to human weaknesses?
d. On the other hand, isn't the so-called annulment granted by the Catholic Church after the consummation of that marriage also a rationalization or an accommodation to human weakness which allows those spouses to marry a new partner?
e. What is the truth here?
f. What do the Church Fathers have to say about blessing a second or third marriages when the original spouses are still alive?
g. Could both the Catholic and the Orthodox Churches be straying from the Way of Truth in these last days?​

3. Within Orthodoxy, why is there a three strikes you are out rule in marriages?

a. In other words, why is divorce and a blessing to remarry sometimes allowed?
b. Or why is a spouse sometimes given a blessing to remarry when his/her spouse dies?


​

Edited to add (26 December 2007)

These are some questions that newcomers at my parish often ask.
I usually refer people to a priest and act dumb.

So, I would really appreciate an honest answer to these questions, so that next time,
when an inquirer asks us and Father is extremely busy, we can give him or her a reasonable answer
or at least know where to search.

I did look in the Orthodox Study Bible, but none of these questions were favorably answered.

 

[MariaRegina]

Thought I would revive this thread.
Could anyone give me some references?

 

[Saint Melania]

Aria, I just heard a Mormon claim that it is not 'til death do us part' but rather families can be together for eternity in heaven!! I don't see this in the Bible at all.

I would like to know the answers to these questions, myself, as they never occurred in Catechism classes, yet.

 

[MariaRegina]

Oh, Melania, that is interesting.

I can see why some Protestants wonder if the Orthodox Christians are a cult because like the Mormons:

(1) we believe in theosis - becoming like god
(2) we don't have the marriage vows with the words "until death do us part."

Yet, there is a difference here.

According to the Holy Bible, we don't become like God in His Divine Nature, but only like Him through His Divine Grace. It is through His Grace that we are purified, sanctified, illuminated, and deified.

And then, in heaven, we do not believe that we will be having children, because there will be no marriage. Yet, we will recognize our spouses and friends in heaven, won't we? Is there any verse from the Bible here?

 

[buzuxi02]

The question: "Is marriage forever?", is one i've been trying to figure out myself. Many possibly most? Orthodox theologians, priests, monks, etc say that marriage is forever, but i dont see how. Omitting "till death do us part" in the wedding ceremony doesnt mean much, our wedding ceremony is much older than the protestant service and including that phrase is not theologically accurate. In the afterlife we will recognize our friends and families and some sort of interaction with them will take place.

In the Orthodox NT 2vol set, for Matt 22.30 it gives a commentary by St John Chrysostom on the passage who denies that marriage is forever. In Luke 20.36 Blessed Theophylact commenting on that passage about the same subject also rejects the existence of marriage in the afterlife.

Considering i cant get a good theological or patristic answer for "eternal yoking" but i can with the 'loosing' of the yoke upon death I accept the latter.

 

[MariaRegina]

From my readings, contrary to what Islam and the Church of the Ladder* Day Saints teach, in heaven there will NOT be the blessing of marriages, marital union (sex), rape, or the begetting of children. However, we will recognize our spouse and friends.







* Oh wow, what a typo. My spell check did not catch this one. My apologies to any LDS reading this post.
LDS = Latter Day Saints, right?

 

[Dorothea]

Well, I'll tell you what I was told when we were getting ready to marry. That marriage is for eternity. The bond is spiritual and the union is forever - our souls are forever united, is what I was told. That doesn't mean we go on being married like we are here, but there is that spiritual union that outlasts this Earthily life and into the afterlife. Again, just what I was told.

As far as the three marriages deal. It seems like something the church came up with in later years. Maybe there was a time to clear that up. I don't have any idea.

 

[MariaRegina]

Well, I'll tell you what I was told when we were getting ready to marry. That marriage is for eternity. The bond is spiritual and the union is forever - our souls are forever united, is what I was told. That doesn't mean we go on being married like we are here, but there is that spiritual union that outlasts this Earthily life and into the afterlife. Again, just what I was told.

...

I think Father Mack's book says the same thing.

 

[buzuxi02]

I think Father Mack's book says the same thing.

Yes many say the same thing, and I reject it. Its ridiculous to think that a marriage bond of polygamy exists in heaven formed between couples who divorce then remarry to mates that are in their first time marriages, thus avoiding celebrating a penitent second marriage ceremony and instead are crowned a second time.
Now if these clergy have Church Fathers backing them up and the marriage ceremony itself saying the same, then they should present the evidence. To me its an innovation, simply trying to react to the modern protestant vows

 

[MariaRegina]

My husband and I have only been married once -- to each other. We do not plan on remarrying if one of us should die.

 

[buzuxi02]

My husband and I have only been married once -- to each other. We do not plan on remarrying if one of us should die.

well thats good, but unfortunately modern society tends to be quite disfunctional. Married people are not equal in their level of theosis and to think they will be unequally yoked for eternity in the afterlife.
Lets say an abusive marriage, which only lasts a year or two. They part never to see each other again till..... 50-60 years later when they die, they are bonded once again....and where in heaven or hell?.

 

[Orthosdoxa]

The way I understand it is like this: we are seeking theosis - true union with God. If we achieve that, we will inheritantly have true union with others who are in union with God. This all ties in with loving our neighbor as ourselves, we don't love God unless we love our brother, etc. Being married ties into that - we are seeking union with each other, death to self. Marriage truly IS to help us seek salvation - if we are doing it right, it's sort of the "beginning" of that process. That continues and is perfected in heaven, but it's not "marriage" like we have on earth -this has nothing to do with LDS or Muslim teachings.

I don't know if I can explain it so anyone else can understand, but it makes sense to me.

I'm no theologian, but that's just what I've gleaned along the way.

 

[MariaRegina]

well thats good, but unfortunately modern society tends to be quite disfunctional. Married people are not equal in their level of theosis and to think they will be unequally yoked for eternity in the afterlife.
Lets say an abusive marriage, which only lasts a year or two. They part never to see each other again till..... 50-60 years later when they die, they are bonded once again....and where in heaven or hell?.

Good question.

Then there is the true story of a woman in Texas? who was nearly poisoned to death by her husband who had taken a large insurance policy out on her.

Anyway, the Greek Orthodox Church held an ecclesiastical court and declared that marriage a fraud and granted her a blessing to marry another man.

The former husband was sent to prison.

That true story was made into a movie.

Yes, I can see your point.

 

[MariaRegina]

The way I understand it is like this: we are seeking theosis - true union with God. If we achieve that, we will inheritantly have true union with others who are in union with God. This all ties in with loving our neighbor as ourselves, we don't love God unless we love our brother, etc. Being married ties into that - we are seeking union with each other, death to self. Marriage truly IS to help us seek salvation - if we are doing it right, it's sort of the "beginning" of that process. That continues and is perfected in heaven, but it's not "marriage" like we have on earth -this has nothing to do with LDS or Muslim teachings.

I don't know if I can explain it so anyone else can understand, but it makes sense to me.

I'm no theologian, but that's just what I've gleaned along the way.

Yes, Marriage is martyrdom. If we succeed, then we inherit the crown of salvation.

 

[buzuxi02]

Good question.

Then there is the true story of a woman in Texas? who was nearly poisoned to death by her husband who had taken a large insurance policy out on her.

Anyway, the Greek Orthodox Church held an ecclesiastical court and declared that marriage a fraud and granted her a blessing to marry another man.

The former husband was sent to prison.

That true story was made into a movie.

Yes, I can see your point.

My point exactly, and i can come up with even worse stories than that involving Orthodox people (and im being serious). Until the theologians tell me what exactly is the nature of this eternal spiritual bond between married people regardless of their spiritual conditions, i will reject it.

 

[Saint Melania]

I seem to remember a verse in the New Testament that someone asked Christ about someone dies, and which husband or wife are they married to in heaven....

Matthew 22:24-33 "Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother. Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother: Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh. And last of all the woman died also. Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her. Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. And when the multitude heard [this], they were astonished at his doctrine."

 

[repentant]

1. There are no vows because we are not supposed to make oaths. The fact that you are getting married is enough of a vow in and of itself.

2. I have no clue, I have yet to ask my Spiritual Father for Buzuxi...

3. 3 strikes and your out is because if you can't get it right by 3 times, you never will...

 

[OnTheWay]

There aren't western vows period, so it's not as if only that section is deleted.

Matthew 22:23-30 is fairly clear on the subject:

023:The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him,024:Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.025:Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother:026:Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh.027:And last of all the woman died also.028:Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.029:Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.030:For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

 

[repentant]

That verse only says that people don't marry, nor are given in marriage in Heaven...it doesn't really answer the question on if someone who is married on earth, is still married in Heaven..at least to me...

 

[ThePosterFormerlyKnownAs]

I share a very powerful spiritual bond with my wife that has developed over the years. She is the mother of my son and we have shared a lot of good and bad times and have always been there for each other. Our relationship isn't based on sex or economics but rather a mutually exclusive denial of self for the sake of the other. I don't see how such a relationship can not continue in Heaven.

Now if we are all going to be changed somehow so we won't recognize or love our family/friends the same way, it would definitely change but I can't imagine a place like that being called Heaven.

I felt I should add that I don't think the marriage relationship will continue as it is with conjugal relations, etc. Just that spouses will not lose the special bond that they share. I'm not stating this as fact, only an opinion.