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The Logical Fallacy of Science

Challagar

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I do not consider myself anything more than an amateur philosopher. Though I do have a college degree, I have no degree in philosophy. I never saw such a degree as being practical or a valuable use of one's time and effort. I mean, what would such a major teach you except to look at things in a certain way.

Do not get me wrong, I am not ignorant of the major known philosophies such as existentialism, epicureanism, hedonism, and pragmatism, but I find the study of logic to be far more practical in arguing truth and knowledge. Logic is what I prefer to base my ideas upon, not the sophistic ideas of philosophy. Sophism is a convolution of ideas and theories that confuse, rather than solve, our deepest questions and spiritual longings.

When a person refers to someone as being "sophisticated," they are usually referring to that person's finer tastes and deeper way of thinking. However, the root of "sophistication" comes from sophism which means:

1. a specious argument for displaying ingenuity in reasoning or for deceiving someone.

2. any false argument; fallacy. (Dictionary(dot)com)

This is what many scientists do, whether they know it or not: they have an idea of how things are and search for evidence to support their beliefs. They develop sophisticated theories to explain the world as they see it. Many of their theories defy logic and are sometimes highly specious, but they insist that these theories must be more reasonable than the alternative, stating that when the impossible has been eliminated, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truth. This sounds like a logical way of approaching a question or mystery, but the biggest mistake is assuming what is possible and what is impossible.

In this universe, far more exists that is unknown than that which is known or even can be known. In other words, how foolish we become when we insist that nothing exists if it can not be quantified or analyzed with an instrument. To think in such a way is not only foolish, but arrogant.

Don't get me wrong. I am not saying that we should believe every "wind of doctrine" or person claiming to have seen a UFO or ghost. That would be taking foolishness to the other extreme. However, we should use logic and reasoning that does not rule out anything before the process of deduction even begins. The concept of assuming someone is innocent until proven guilty should stand just as firm in science as it does in the court system. We should not exclude the possibility of God's existence until that existence has been thoroughly disproven beyond the shadow of a reasonable doubt.

Sadly, the opposite is usually the case. Scientists and skeptics assert that since we can not prove God's existence then He must not exist. Some other explanation must account for all that has transpired since the beginning of the universe.And, just as sadly, untold numbers of theories and sophisticated fallacies are all that can fill in the void. These explanations range from the Big Bang Theory, a theory in which all that exists came from a point in space smaller than an atom, to the Theory of Evolution, which many make reference to as authoritative and irrefutable fact.

Of course, I could maybe believe the Big Bang Theory...maybe. Yes, I could possibly be convinced of such a theory.....but wait a second, the very fact that I even exist to be persuaded at all defies any attempt at persuasion, at least as far as I am concerned.What I mean is that if all that existed were physical objects and energy and laws of physics, then maybe some of the theories that scientists hold so dearly might make sense.But there will always be a stumbling block to a sure and irrefutable scientific argument for the genesis of all that exists. This stumbling block is Life itself.

All that exists testifies to the fact that life is by design. Nothing that exists has ever happened by accident. People have accidents, complex biological systems do not. To say that a system as complex as the human body developed over millions of years by accident is truly absurd. It should take only a little bit of logical reasoning to discount such a scenario.

Let us take for instance the natural process of reproduction. Suppose, for the sake of argument, that somehow a series of accidents occurred that produced a living organism. What then? Would it just automatically have an inbuilt need to reproduce? Not necessarily. Why not? Because a whole new series of accidents would have to occur before reproduction could take place. So what happens meanwhile? Certainly not reproduction. The Series of Miraculous Accidents never decreed that the living organism should go forth and multiply. Why would it? Why must a series of accidents absolutely have to culminate in a creature that can reproduce its own kind? Nature has been likened to a mother, but she is an indifferent mother for sure. By this I mean that nature has no mind or will or awareness to direct these accidents to produce a meaningful result, much less a meaningful result that can reproduce itself.

What are we left with then? A creature that lives and dies and returns to the ground from which it sprang. Then nature must start the series of extremely improbable accidents all over again. Scientists claim Earth is billions of years old, but for these series of accident to take place successfully billions of years would be a drop in the ocean compared to the time it would actually take. It would be more like a billion to the billionth power to the billionth power to the billionth power. And if anything, this is a serious underestimation.

Now, let us suppose that nature has produced a successfully reproductive living organism. The next stumbling block is far more of an obstacle than even producing a living breathing reproductive creature from a series of near infinite years of accidents. This obstacle is consciousness.

The idea that complexity makes something closer to a higher form of thought and awareness occurs repeatedly in science fiction. Star Trek, for example, has an android named Data that constantly questions what it is to be human and eventually comes to understand and therefore become more human. The character that Gene Roddenberry created is quite charming and endearing......so endearing that the viewer is put off guard to this sophistic fallacy that complexity breeds consciousness. This very detailed and complex robot was designed and built to behave and reason as a human individual, therefore (according to the storyline of the show) the inevitable result would be that it grows into its proper role as a sentient being. But, realistically, can we expect a puppet or even a self-sustaining and self-diagnostic robot to develop consciousness just because it resembles a sentient being?

If we are to believe that complexity breeds self-awareness, then we must ask, "What amount of complexity, exactly, constitutes a sufficient catalyst for self-awareness?" This is truly an unanswerable question. What scientific experiment can possibly determine the level of complexity needed to develop higher brain functions, or even develop a brain at all? Just because something is biological doesn't mean that it will, or even can, develop a brain.

Look at plants. Scientists have determined that plants do not have an intelligence as we know it. They merely respond to stimuli in their environment. They do not choose where they will be planted. They do not choose when to turn their petals and leaves toward the sun. They are basically slaves to chemical processes (but even to use the word "slave" is inappropriate since this word implies having a will that can be subverted).

Speaking of plants, this brings me to my next topic of consideration. Not only are we to believe that a biological organism can spring up from inert matter, reproduce itself, and develop a consciousness (not necessarily in that order) through a series of serendipitous accidents, but are we to also believe that two completely different forms of life can spring up simultaneously through this same process and be dependent upon each other so completely.

Yes, I said simultaneously. There is no other way for the process to develop since both components of the process of the Oxygen-Carbon Dioxide Cycle are interdependent. Without one side of the cycle, the other will die out shortly (relatively speaking, considering the amount of time necessary to evolve). If plants do not have a steady source of carbon dioxide, then they will die. If animals do not have a steady supply of oxygen, then they will die.

Now we have added to our dilemma. How can two systems develop simultaneously when they are dependent on each other? I mean, do they both start out providing what the other needs from day one? They'd better, or else neither one stands any chance of surviving long enough to develop the process of reproduction over the millions of years that the evolutionary process states that they require.

I'm sure someone is thinking, "They would use the abundant supply of oxygen or carbon dioxide (whichever the case may be) that is already present in the atmosphere, of course. DUH!." Very good observation, except for one problem. Don't forget that the process of evolution takes millions of years to produce a meaningful result. In that amount of time, the organism will have used up the reserve of oxygen or carbon dioxide and will have suffocated on its own waste product without a renewable source of oxygen or carbon dioxide (again, whichever the case may be).

Even if scientists can come up with an explanation for any one of these dilemmas, how can we reasonably believe that the end result, as we know it today, came about through a series of accidents. Alone, each of these stumbling blocks is formidable, but when combined they truly stop us in our tracks and make us think. Ask yourself if you are holding on to the belief that life developed over millions of years because the idea really makes sense or are you holding onto it because you have a preconceived notion of the non-existence of a designer?
 
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granpa

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the trouble with science isnt philosophical.
Its political.
the idea of letting the experts decide what is true seems reasonable enough but who decides who is an expert? Well, the experts decide who is an expert.
Over time the system takes on a life of its own, not only independent of but, indeed, even against the wishes of the scientists involved.
Anyone who doesnt tow the party line is declared to be a 'crackpot'.

science should ideally be a neutral ground where atheists and theists alike can agree but atheists treat it as their own private fortress from which to hurl down abuse upon religion.
 
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Challagar

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That is a very good assessment of the situation, Thanks for the insight.

The post is a re-post from my blog which I am pretty sure I am not allowed to post a link to so I decided to share it here since it hasn't had much traffic to speak of because of it being so new.

The blog is an outlet for ideas that go through my mind on occasion, and not a political sounding board. The posts on the blog will hopefully reach people who will be honest with themselves and see the truth of it.

It is in no way intended to change the mind of evolutionists who are entrenched in the theories so much that they have become blind to logic and reason. They might as well look elsewhere. The most I can hope from them is some belittling remark or more sophistic arguments to try to undermine the reasoning contained in the blog.
 
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EveryTongueConfess

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"how can we reasonably believe that the end result, as we know it today, came about through a series of accidents. Alone, each of these stumbling blocks is formidable, but when combined they truly stop us in our tracks and make us think."

Random is random.

Probabilities are meaningless.
There is a 1/52 chance that I pick say the Ace of Spades out of my deck of cards.
Blow that number up to say 9999999999
The probabilities that I choose the card is "impossible" yet it happened. I somehow out of 9999999999 other cards I got the Ace of Spades.

Perhaps existence is improbable, but it happened.

Probability means nothing.

-------------------------

Science in itself, as a theory is beautiful -- The art of discovering the physical world.
The art of learning who God is by His creation -- the natural world.

Science in itself is unbiased, however there is an increasingly large growth in atheistic influence over science.

Though science is man's fallible way to interpret God's general revelation (not the divine revelation).

You really should check out Theistic Evolution...You'd learn a lot...
 
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Challagar

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You seriously want to say that? You think it was random that plants and animals both "evolved" simultaneously? You think it was random that mere complexity was a catalyst for life? You think that randomness brought forth such irreducibly complex arrangements of molecules for specific purposes just because a need for them existed?

If I can't swim and I fall in the water, I need to breathe air, but that doesn't mean after the thousandth time that I fall in the water, and fortunately am rescued each time, that doesn't mean that I will grow gills. Just because flying would be beneficial to a species, that doesn't mean it will grow wings.

The randomness idea is preposterous. Drawing a card from a deck of cards is a far simpler process than developing what is needed from nature. What is needed does not force a species to develop that trait. Humans need a brain, but just because they need it is no reason they should necessarily have it.

Also, many of the functions of the body, reproduction, for example, must have been formed fully developed and fully functioning. No partially formed system would have allowed continual evolution to be successful. It was convenient of you to overlook this idea from my post.

I would say more, but I am running out of time since I must finish getting ready for work.
 
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Jpark

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the trouble with science isnt philosophical.
Its political.
the idea of letting the experts decide what is true seems reasonable enough but who decides who is an expert? Well, the experts decide who is an expert.
Over time the system takes on a life of its own, not only independent of but, indeed, even against the wishes of the scientists involved.
Anyone who doesnt tow the party line is declared to be a 'crackpot'.
Speaking of which, politics just happens to be dirty.

So what prevents science from being dirty? Moral code. Ethics. The realization that a single mistake in calculation, measuring, etc. can affect society greatly, since society mainly relies on science.

Scientists are expected to present their findings in honesty, without personal bias, but we have seen several cases of dishonesty all motivated by bias.

Imo, the experts should remain in the boundaries, in what is observable and reachable (i.e. space), and they should not try to calculate things such as the age of the earth and (especially) the age of the universe, which are unknowable.

Eccl. 3:11 says He has made everything appropriate in its time He has also set eternity in their heart, yet so that man will not find out the work which God has done from the beginning even to the end.

science should ideally be a neutral ground where atheists and theists alike can agree but atheists treat it as their own private fortress from which to hurl down abuse upon religion.
That seems to be the case these days.
 
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When a person refers to someone as being "sophisticated," they are usually referring to that person's finer tastes and deeper way of thinking. However, the root of "sophistication" comes from sophism which means:

1. a specious argument for displaying ingenuity in reasoning or for deceiving someone.

2. any false argument; fallacy. (Dictionary(dot)com)

Actually, concepts for such words tend to shift their influences, in accordance to time, culture, power, and etc. The era in which we live in is the era of science. Unless you can prove something with given evidence which can be considered as genuine "facts," you will definitely be considered as an unsophisticated fool. I am not trying to offend you sir, but what can you do about it? :D

This is what many scientists do, whether they know it or not: they have an idea of how things are and search for evidence to support their beliefs. They develop sophisticated theories to explain the world as they see it. Many of their theories defy logic and are sometimes highly specious, but they insist that these theories must be more reasonable than the alternative, stating that when the impossible has been eliminated, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truth. This sounds like a logical way of approaching a question or mystery, but the biggest mistake is assuming what is possible and what is impossible.

Well, science distinguishes what can be done and what cannot be done by humans. In reality, there are many things that humans are unable to accomplish. Overtime, people became vexed about this and tried to make it seen that they are quite "able." This is their way of comforting themselves. It can't be helped.

In this universe, far more exists that is unknown than that which is known or even can be known. In other words, how foolish we become when we insist that nothing exists if it can not be quantified or analyzed with an instrument. To think in such a way is not only foolish, but arrogant.

Like I stated above this point, humans are only struggling to advance forward. They still see their limits and what little they can do. To cover it up, they have formed an enterprise known as science.

Sadly, the opposite is usually the case. Scientists and skeptics assert that since we can not prove God's existence then He must not exist. Some other explanation must account for all that has transpired since the beginning of the universe.And, just as sadly, untold numbers of theories and sophisticated fallacies are all that can fill in the void. These explanations range from the Big Bang Theory, a theory in which all that exists came from a point in space smaller than an atom, to the Theory of Evolution, which many make reference to as authoritative and irrefutable fact.

Actually, the science is continually advancing itself. As the scientists uncover many of the things that they previously were unable to understand, they now ask themselves with a question, "Could it be that the God really exist?" :p

All that exists testifies to the fact that life is by design. Nothing that exists has ever happened by accident. People have accidents, complex biological systems do not. To say that a system as complex as the human body developed over millions of years by accident is truly absurd. It should take only a little bit of logical reasoning to discount such a scenario.

Well, humans' understanding level can only reach that of physical one. They still are not fully capable of reaching a spiritual or psychological wavelength, through their own ability.
 
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Challagar

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Actually, concepts for such words tend to shift their influences, in accordance to time, culture, power, and etc. The era in which we live in is the era of science. Unless you can prove something with given evidence which can be considered as genuine "facts," you will definitely be considered as an unsophisticated fool. I am not trying to offend you sir, but what can you do about it? :D

I am not offended. Greater people than me have used all kinds of facts and figures, using similar logic, and have been ridiculed and mocked because they don't agree with the mainstream thinking. Just check out the ICR website to see what I'm talking about.

I have other posts (which I intend to post here after this one has had sufficient amount of discussion) on my blog which go into more detail as far as facts are concerned, but the facts are common knowledge facts, not the latest research du jour. And the facts are not highly technical. I'd rather spend my free time doing other things than pour over hour after hour of research.

Well, science distinguishes what can be done and what cannot be done by humans. In reality, there are many things that humans are unable to accomplish. Overtime, people became vexed about this and tried to make it seen that they are quite "able." This is their way of comforting themselves. It can't be helped.

I can't say that I disagree with you on this point. :)


Like I stated above this point, humans are only struggling to advance forward. They still see their limits and what little they can do. To cover it up, they have formed an enterprise known as science.

So true. Sadly, it has so often replaced simple logic and reason. :(

Actually, the science is continually advancing itself. As the scientists uncover many of the things that they previously were unable to understand, they now ask themselves with a question, "Could it be that the God really exist?" :p

Hopefully my thoughts can reach people who have a good head on their shoulder but who might zone out when technical terminology and figures get thrown about.

Well, humans' understanding level can only reach that of physical one. They still are not fully capable of reaching a spiritual or psychological wavelength, through their own ability.

Too bad. You know, it's funny how advanced the minds of Plato and Socrates and Aristotle were, and they lived thousands of years ago. People nowadays look down their noses at our ancestors because they didn't have the technical advances that we do now. People in the day of these logical geniuses had much less problem with higher thought. Oh, if only Paul had lived in those days and preached the gospel to them! What a harvest he would have had!
 
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metherion

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I think I’ll take a stab at some of the stuff from the first page. But I do warn you, this is my last day of internet for about a week, so if I don’t respond, it is NOT because I am a hit and run poster. You have been warned.

Also, I am a scientist. I’m currently in grad school for chemistry. So take that as you will.

Now, let’s see here.

Scientists and skeptics assert that since we can not prove God's existence then He must not exist.

That’s actually generally not the case. It’s more “I have not been presented with conclusive evidence of God’s existence, therefore I do not believe in God.” Some people take what you say; more do not. And remember how many scientists are Christians, take a look at my faith symbol.

These explanations range from the Big Bang Theory, a theory in which all that exists came from a point in space smaller than an atom, to the Theory of Evolution, which many make reference to as authoritative and irrefutable fact.
And neither of which is incompatible with Christianity. Large amounts of Christians hold to both of those as explanations of the phenomena of the known universe.

Of course, I could maybe believe the Big Bang Theory...maybe. Yes, I could possibly be convinced of such a theory.....but wait a second, the very fact that I even exist to be persuaded at all defies any attempt at persuasion, at least as far as I am concerned.What I mean is that if all that existed were physical objects and energy and laws of physics, then maybe some of the theories that scientists hold so dearly might make sense.But there will always be a stumbling block to a sure and irrefutable scientific argument for the genesis of all that exists. This stumbling block is Life itself.

All that exists testifies to the fact that life is by design.

Your existence and the existence of life doens’t do anything to discount those things. Life is governed by biochemistry, by thermodynamics, which results in complex systems coming together. Nothing super fancy about it.

Nothing that exists has ever happened by accident. People have accidents, complex biological systems do not. To say that a system as complex as the human body developed over millions of years by accident is truly absurd. It should take only a little bit of logical reasoning to discount such a scenario.

Right, but not for the reason you say. To have an accident, you need to have a purpose leading to a desired goal. There must be a plan to be followed that can be fouled up. No intelligence, no plan, no accidents. All you have is change. Now, to take a look at your ‘logic’, to see if it really is logic.

Let us take for instance the natural process of reproduction. Suppose, for the sake of argument, that somehow a series of accidents occurred that produced a living organism. What then? Would it just automatically have an inbuilt need to reproduce? Not necessarily.
It wouldn’t be a series of accidents. It would be a series of organic/biochemical steps. Organic molecules can exist without an organism making them, and many of the self-catalyze and continue on their own. And since one of the big definitions of life is that it CAN reproduce itself, by being a living being, it would by definition have an ability to reproduce.

Why not? Because a whole new series of accidents would have to occur before reproduction could take place. So what happens meanwhile? Certainly not reproduction. The Series of Miraculous Accidents never decreed that the living organism should go forth and multiply. Why would it? Why must a series of accidents absolutely have to culminate in a creature that can reproduce its own kind?
I’m sorry, this line of argument is based on a flawed premise. To simplify it, it would get from ‘a pool of chemicals’ to ‘life’ by a series of steps that would take it from ‘chemicals’ to ‘organic molecules’ to ‘self-replicating organic molecules’ to ‘life’. Without the ability to reproduce itself, it would not BE life. And “The Series of Miraculous Accidents” is not a being that could decree anything.

Nature has been likened to a mother, but she is an indifferent mother for sure. By this I mean that nature has no mind or will or awareness to direct these accidents to produce a meaningful result, much less a meaningful result that can reproduce itself.
You are correct in that nature has no mind nor will nor awareness. However, you are wrong in that thermodynamically, it can be favorable for biochemical reactions to continue, for systems to form around these reactions, and so on.

What are we left with then? A creature that lives and dies and returns to the ground from which it sprang. Then nature must start the series of extremely improbable accidents all over again.
‘Fraid not, according to what I’ve just explained.

Scientists claim Earth is billions of years old, but for these series of accident to take place successfully billions of years would be a drop in the ocean compared to the time it would actually take. It would be more like a billion to the billionth power to the billionth power to the billionth power. And if anything, this is a serious underestimation.

Sure, if you only had one testing site. But there was a planet full of testing sites, testing sites that were on the microscopic level. Say it took... 100 square centimeters per testing site. That’s 10 cm by 10 cm. You can fit 10 to the 18th power or more molecules there, easily. Probably many many many more, especially of the light and less dense elements that are needed for life. How many 100 square centimeter patches are there on Earth? Quite a lot.

Instead of copy-pasting your paragraphs on consciousness, I will merely say this: Self-awareness and what constitutes it would be more a question of philosophy. I own cats, or did when I lived with my folks. Cats have personalities. Cats think, and act certain idiosyncratic ways. So do dogs. So do dolphins. So do apes. So do humans. What a brain is is well defined, so it can be easy to tell if something HAS a brain, and if something needs a brain is generally dependent on size.

Speaking of plants, this brings me to my next topic of consideration. Not only are we to believe that a biological organism can spring up from inert matter, reproduce itself, and develop a consciousness (not necessarily in that order) through a series of serendipitous accidents, but are we to also believe that two completely different forms of life can spring up simultaneously through this same process and be dependent upon each other so completely.

Yes, I said simultaneously. There is no other way for the process to develop since both components of the process of the Oxygen-Carbon Dioxide Cycle are interdependent. Without one side of the cycle, the other will die out shortly (relatively speaking, considering the amount of time necessary to evolve). If plants do not have a steady source of carbon dioxide, then they will die. If animals do not have a steady supply of oxygen, then they will die.

You lack understanding here. There are single celled organisms that are neither plant nor animal. You don’t need to have both at the same time. You can also have some kinds of plants without animals, and some kinds of bacteria/fungi/whatever with neither. You can also have single celled organisms without oxygen. There is actually a period called the oxygen holocaust where large amounts of extant life died because oxygen started being produced by some organisms.

You also seem to be operating under the assumption that it went:
nothing -> nothing -> nothing -> BOOM FULLY FORMED ECOSYSTEM.

It didn’t, and nobody claims it did.

Yes, nowadays, the ecosystem is such that you need everything, but it wasn’t always like that.

Now we have added to our dilemma. How can two systems develop simultaneously when they are dependent on each other? I mean, do they both start out providing what the other needs from day one? They'd better, or else neither one stands any chance of surviving long enough to develop the process of reproduction over the millions of years that the evolutionary process states that they require.
Except now we have no dilemma.

Also, from a post after the OP:

You seriously want to say that? You think it was random that plants and animals both "evolved" simultaneously?
They didn’t, they didn’t need to, and biochemistry/organic chemistry/thermodynamics is not randomness.

You think it was random that mere complexity was a catalyst for life?
I don’t get what you mean by this.

You think that randomness brought forth such irreducibly complex arrangements of molecules for specific purposes just because a need for them existed?

Irreducible complexity was debunked at Dover v. Kitzmiller.

If I can't swim and I fall in the water, I need to breathe air, but that doesn't mean after the thousandth time that I fall in the water, and fortunately am rescued each time, that doesn't mean that I will grow gills. Just because flying would be beneficial to a species, that doesn't mean it will grow wings.
But that’s not what the science says. Perhaps one of the reasons you have such problems with things not working is because you think science claims things that it doesn’t actually claim.

The randomness idea is preposterous. Drawing a card from a deck of cards is a far simpler process than developing what is needed from nature. What is needed does not force a species to develop that trait. Humans need a brain, but just because they need it is no reason they should necessarily have it.

Actually, it isn’t as preposterous as you make it out, and you are laboring under the wrong idea of what science says. Humans did not have a brain because they ‘needed’ one, they had one because their ancestors had one. The ancestors had one because the great-ancestors had one. And the great-great-great...great-great-great ancestors developed one because some of their cells developed mutations that made them into specialized nerve cells, that was beneficial, and that spread throughout them and their descendants because it survived.

Also, many of the functions of the body, reproduction, for example, must have been formed fully developed and fully functioning. No partially formed system would have allowed continual evolution to be successful. It was convenient of you to overlook this idea from my post.

Fully formed and fully functioning =/= in its current form. It also =/= unchangeable.

Imo, the experts should remain in the boundaries, in what is observable and reachable (i.e. space), and they should not try to calculate things such as the age of the earth and (especially) the age of the universe, which are unknowable.

Except they are, using the very earth and space that God created.

Metherion
 
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Jase

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It is in no way intended to change the mind of evolutionists who are entrenched in the theories so much that they have become blind to logic and reason. They might as well look elsewhere. The most I can hope from them is some belittling remark or more sophistic arguments to try to undermine the reasoning contained in the blog.
Science does not undermine logic and reason, religion and faith do - which is why it's a belief. Science is based on evidence.

Do you avoid going to the doctor because his diagnosis of illness is based on "illogical scientific theories"?
 
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shernren

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However, we should use logic and reasoning that does not rule out anything before the process of deduction even begins. The concept of assuming someone is innocent until proven guilty should stand just as firm in science as it does in the court system.

And yet:

It is in no way intended to change the mind of evolutionists who are entrenched in the theories so much that they have become blind to logic and reason. They might as well look elsewhere. The most I can hope from them is some belittling remark or more sophistic arguments to try to undermine the reasoning contained in the blog.

There are indeed many scientific issues to be addressed and discussed in your OP, but I think the contradictions in your own thought need to be addressed far more urgently. Is your "openness" only openness to the ideas which are already resounding in your head? Are you willing to listen to rational people, only to have predetermined that anyone who disagrees with you is being irrational?
 
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gluadys

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I find the study of logic to be far more practical in arguing truth and knowledge.

We should not exclude the possibility of God's existence until that existence has been thoroughly disproven beyond the shadow of a reasonable doubt.

Scientists and skeptics assert that since we can not prove God's existence then He must not exist.

Logic is a very good place to begin. It makes sense we should not exclude the possibility of God's existence until that has been disproven.

However, when the data are faulty, the logic fails. Or to put it in logical terms, one cannot derive a correct conclusion from incorrect premises.

You have entered some faulty data into your reasoning process--namely that scientists assert that lack of evidence for God means God does not exist.

Do you have data on how many scientists make that claim? It is certainly far less than 100%. Even many scientists who hold the existence of God improbable don't assert that God is non-existent. Further there are many scientists who hold that God does exist, though they agree there is no indisputable evidence of his existence.

Faulty data= faulty logic.

This is a data point you need to revise in order for your logical processes to lead to correct conclusions.

These explanations range from the Big Bang Theory, a theory in which all that exists came from a point in space smaller than an atom, to the Theory of Evolution, which many make reference to as authoritative and irrefutable fact.

Both of these are fully consistent with the existence of God. In fact, Big Bang Theory was first proposed by a Catholic priest. Were you aware of that fact?

Theologians from Catholic, Orthodox, mainline and evangelical Protestant schools of thought have affirmed that evolution is consistent with Christian theism---even with an historical Adam.

This data is easily verified with some simple Google searches. You need to incorporate some of this data into your thinking in order to improve your logical conclusions.



All that exists testifies to the fact that life is by design. Nothing that exists has ever happened by accident. People have accidents, complex biological systems do not. To say that a system as complex as the human body developed over millions of years by accident is truly absurd. It should take only a little bit of logical reasoning to discount such a scenario.

Let us take for instance the natural process of reproduction. Suppose, for the sake of argument, that somehow a series of accidents occurred that produced a living organism. What then? Would it just automatically have an inbuilt need to reproduce? Not necessarily. Why not? Because a whole new series of accidents would have to occur before reproduction could take place. So what happens meanwhile? Certainly not reproduction. The Series of Miraculous Accidents never decreed that the living organism should go forth and multiply.


Most of this reflects lack of correct data about the workings of chemistry and biochemistry. Chemistry is not accidental. It is entirely dependent on the laws of physics. Life, in its basic physical foundation, is a particularly complex form of chemistry, but it is still bound by the same physical laws. It is not accidental.

(Life, writ large, may be far more than chemistry, but that takes us into philosophy and theology. Science sticks to the study of life as a physical phenomenon.)

Would it just automatically have an inbuilt need to reproduce?


Yes. The earliest living organisms were unicellular. There are physical reasons why a cell cannot simply keep growing and must reproduce to keep living. Surface area does not increase as quickly as volume and the ratio of surface area to volume needs to be maintained to maintain life.


Because a whole new series of accidents would have to occur before reproduction could take place.

What "accidents" and why would they have to happen?


What are we left with then? A creature that lives and dies and returns to the ground from which it sprang. Then nature must start the series of extremely improbable accidents all over again. Scientists claim Earth is billions of years old, but for these series of accident to take place successfully billions of years would be a drop in the ocean compared to the time it would actually take. It would be more like a billion to the billionth power to the billionth power to the billionth power. And if anything, this is a serious underestimation.


These erroneous conclusions are fed by the errors in data you have fed into your logic. As the computer geeks say: "garbage in, garbage out."

This very detailed and complex robot was designed and built to behave and reason as a human individual, therefore (according to the storyline of the show) the inevitable result would be that it grows into its proper role as a sentient being. But, realistically, can we expect a puppet or even a self-sustaining and self-diagnostic robot to develop consciousness just because it resembles a sentient being?

Although we are dealing with fiction here, one has to ask, Why not? Did you not begin by saying that nothing should be ruled impossible until it was proved to be impossible? Have you proved this scenario to be impossible?



Speaking of plants, this brings me to my next topic of consideration. Not only are we to believe that a biological organism can spring up from inert matter, reproduce itself, and develop a consciousness (not necessarily in that order) through a series of serendipitous accidents, but are we to also believe that two completely different forms of life can spring up simultaneously through this same process and be dependent upon each other so completely.

Incorrect data again. First, you are ignoring that most forms of life are neither plant nor animal. Second, plants and animals did not spring up simultaneously. Marine algae (which some include with plants) are one of the oldest forms of life, long pre-dating animal life. OTOH, animal life long predated the first terrestrial plant life (and generally in science "plant" means "terrestrial plant".) And terrestrial plant life was well established before the earliest animal life on land (mostly small arthropods). Vertebrate life on land came even later.

So there is nothing simultaneous about the emergence of plant and animal life.


Yes, I said simultaneously. There is no other way for the process to develop since both components of the process of the Oxygen-Carbon Dioxide Cycle are interdependent.

More faulty data. All life absorbs and releases carbon dioxide---not just plants. And the photosynthetic process that produces atmospheric oxygen existed in bacteria long before there were even marine algae, much less terrestrial plants. Even today 50% of the oxygen in the atmosphere is produced by photosynthetic plankton, not by plants.

Oh, and in addition, there are many forms of life that do not use oxygen as an energy source and so did not need an oxygen-rich atmosphere when life began. They are still abundant today in anoxic environments such as your intestines.


Do you begin to see how your conclusions, however logical, are sheer poppycock because you are not taking such data into account? When the premises are incorrect, so is the conclusion. Your premises lack validity.

The only way to improve your logical conclusions is to improve the data on which they are based.
 
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philadiddle

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You seriously want to say that? You think it was random that plants and animals both "evolved" simultaneously? You think it was random that mere complexity was a catalyst for life? You think that randomness brought forth such irreducibly complex arrangements of molecules for specific purposes just because a need for them existed?
Plants evolved before animals.

Randomness is not an agent that causes anything to happen. Randomness is a reference to our inability to predict specific outcomes. Complex arrangements arise from natural selection, which is not a random process.

If I can't swim and I fall in the water, I need to breathe air, but that doesn't mean after the thousandth time that I fall in the water, and fortunately am rescued each time, that doesn't mean that I will grow gills. Just because flying would be beneficial to a species, that doesn't mean it will grow wings.
This is not how anybody thinks that evolution works, so this is meaningless. If you could demonstrate that this is how things evolved then you would be discrediting the theory of evolution.

Also, many of the functions of the body, reproduction, for example, must have been formed fully developed and fully functioning.
There are many different stages of the evolution of reproduction that would be successful. There are many different ways that it works in nature that we can observe. There is nothing that has been demonstrated to be irreducibly complex. ID proponents only point out things that we don't know all of the details on yet, even though we actually have a good understanding of how it is possible for them to have evolved.

ID advocates say "God did it" or more politically correct, "an intelligent agent did it". And that's as far as their explanation goes.

Scientists say "evolution did it" and Christian scientists say "God used evolution to do it". But then they go on to say, "we know that from this stage to this stage it only requires one point mutation here, and we can see this lineage with the leftovers from that lineage, and we have this evidence to support it, and we can trace back most of the steps of the evolution of this complex feature."

Meanwhile the ID advocates look up from their busy work counting their donation money and say "Did you say most of the steps? So you can't explain it so therefore we are right. Now buy my book!"

No partially formed system would have allowed continual evolution to be successful. It was convenient of you to overlook this idea from my post.
Which partially formed system are you referring to?
 
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