The lesson of Geocentrism

Vance · Nov 10, 2003

Blueberry, if you can't answer the points, just admit it. It does not further the discussion at all to simply sit back and say "you are wrong, I am right, go back and read it again and you will see." This is what YEC's tend to do and it simply shows the weakness of their position.

Blueberry Sponge · Nov 10, 2003

Vance said:
... if you can't answer the points ...

What were the "points"?

Vance · Nov 10, 2003

Blueberry Sponge said:
What were the "points"?

The fact that you have to ask indicates you really have no interesting in recognizing the points. Here they are again:

"From Genesis 1:1 - 2:3 the Bible tells us that Elohim created the heavens and the earth in 6 days. In Genesis 2:4 the Bible tells us that Yahweh created the heavens and the earth within one day (beyom)."
and

"In Genesis 1:20-27 the Bible tells us that we get birds on day 5, land animals first on day 6, and then men and women created together later on day 6.

In Genesis 2:7-22 the Bible tells us that Yahweh makes a single man, then land animals and birds mixed together, and then one woman."

There are, indeed, some interpretive gymnastics you can go through to make the two line up in a fashion as literal texts, but when you do that, you definitely are giving up ANY argument that we can simply rely on a "plain reading" of the Scriptures. A plain reading shows a conflict if they are literal, so there are only two possibilities:

1. It is not meant to be read literally

2. You can not go with a plain reading and have to apply a great deal of interpretive reconstruction to make them fit.

While YEC's do the latter all the time, they seem to think they don't for some reason and vehemently argue against such interpretive efforts when someone else does it.

Blueberry Sponge · Nov 10, 2003

I did answer those.

Vance said:
From Genesis 1:1 - 2:3 the Bible tells us that Elohim created the heavens and the earth in 6 days. In Genesis 2:4 the Bible tells us that Yahweh created the heavens and the earth within one day (beyom)."

That's a false statement.

Vance said:
and "In Genesis 1:20-27 the Bible tells us that we get birds on day 5, land animals first on day 6, and then men and women created together later on day 6.

In Genesis 2:7-22 the Bible tells us that Yahweh makes a single man, then land animals and birds mixed together, and then one woman."

That's a false statement.

Vance said:
A plain reading shows a conflict if they are literal ...

No it doesn't.

lucaspa · Nov 10, 2003

Blueberry Sponge said:
Your alleged contradictions are a result of your sloppy reading of the text as you demonstrate in your 2 quotes that follow:
From Genesis 1:1 - 2:3 the Bible tells us that Elohim created the heavens and the earth in 6 days. In Genesis 2:4 the Bible tells us that Yahweh created the heavens and the earth within one day (beyom).

You have misrepresented the Scripture passage in the above quote. Go back and reread Genesis 1 & 2.

I have obviously read them. Walk me thru where you think I made an error.

You have misrepresented the Scripture passage in the above quote. Go back and reread Genesis 2.

Again, walk us thru the "misrepresentation", please.

lucaspa · Nov 10, 2003

Blueberry Sponge said:
I did answer those.

That's a false statement.

That's not an answer. It's simply a denial of an argument you don't like.

I don't think it is a false statement. Otherwise, I would not have made it.

So, please walk us thru, in detail, why you think it is a false statement.

That's a false statement.

Again, walk us thru your reasoning here, please.

Vance: A plain reading shows a conflict if they are literal ...

No it doesn't.

Again, that is simply denial and tells us nothing. Show us how there is no conflict or contradiction.

Blueberry Sponge · Nov 11, 2003

lucaspa said:
I have obviously read them. Walk me thru where you think I made an error.

Again, walk us thru the "misrepresentation", please.

Check EVERY phrase and EVERY word of your 2 statements against these Scripture passages. You should be able to see the fallacies of your statements and how you have misrepresented these Scripture passages. Do that.

Karl - Liberal Backslider · Nov 11, 2003

Blueberry Sponge said:
Check EVERY phrase and EVERY word of your 2 statements against these Scripture passages. You should be able to see the fallacies of your statements and how you have misrepresented these Scripture passages. Do that.

Vance's and Lucaspa's description of the verses appears accurate to me. I think your post here is basically saying "actually I can't argue against you because you're right but I'm not going to admit it so la la la la can't hear you" - a position I've come to associate with the more militant young earther.

Vance · Nov 11, 2003

Notice how the posts get shorter as the substantive arguments fade . . .

Vance · Nov 11, 2003

And again, I will say for the record:

There are, indeed, some interpretive gymnastics you can go through to make the two line up in a fashion, but when you do that, you definitely are giving up ANY argument that we can simply rely on a "plain reading" of the Scriptures. A plain reading shows a conflict if they are literal, so there are only two possibilities:

1. It is not meant to be read literally

2. You can not go with a plain reading and have to apply a great deal of interpretive reconstruction to make them fit.

While YEC's do the latter all the time, they seem to think they don't for some reason and vehemently argue against such interpretive efforts when someone else does it.

Blueberry Sponge · Nov 11, 2003

lucaspa said:
From Genesis 1:1 - 2:3 the Bible tells us that Elohim created the heavens and the earth in 6 days. In Genesis 2:4 the Bible tells us that Yahweh created the heavens and the earth within one day (beyom).

In the beginning God created the heaven and the
earth ... And the evening and the morning were the first day. Gen.1:1-5

Did God create the heaven and the earth on the 2nd day? No. He made the firmament and called the firmament heaven. But the heaven was already created on the 1st day.

Did God create the heaven and the earth on the 3rd day?. No. He gathered the waters to make the dry land appear and called the dry land earth. But the earth was already created on the 1st day.

Did God create the heaven and the earth on the 4th day?. No.

Did God create the heaven and the earth on the 5th day?. No.

Did God create the heaven and the earth on the 6th day?. No.

Does Gen. 1:1 - 2:3 tell us that Elohim created the heavens and the earth in 6 days? No it doesn't. This is a false statement.

Remember: ... in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, AND ALL THAT IN THEM IS. Exodus 20:11

lucaspa said:
In Genesis 1:20-27 the Bible tells us that we get birds on day 5, land animals first on day 6, and then men and women created together later on day 6.

In Genesis 2:7-22 the Bible tells us that Yahweh makes a single man, then land animals and birds mixed together, and then one woman.

One fallacy is your 2 "thens": ... Yahweh makes a single man, then land animals and birds mixed together, and then one woman ... The chronology in your statement isn't in the Bible passage. You've read a chronology INTO the passage that isn't there.

Vs. 7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground ...
Vs. 19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast/fowl ... and brought them unto Adam

The order of the MENTION of their creations in the chapter is first the man and then the animals. But there is nothing that states it's the CHRONOLOGICAL order of their creations. The chronology isn't mentioned in this passage. But you stuck one in there.

lucaspa said:
Again, if we worship Biblical literalism, that's a contradiction.

A literal, plain reading of the text doesn't involve reading something into it that isn't there. That's what you've done.

Vance · Nov 11, 2003

Blueberry said, in response to Lucaspas post:

"In the beginning God created the heaven and the
earth ... And the evening and the morning were the first day. Gen.1:1-5

Did God create the heaven and the earth on the 2nd day? No. He made the firmament and called the firmament heaven. But the heaven was already created on the 1st day.

Did God create the heaven and the earth on the 3rd day?. No. He gathered the waters to make the dry land appear and called the dry land earth. But the earth was already created on the 1st day.

Did God create the heaven and the earth on the 4th day?. No.

Etc"

Ah, but see then you have to do some more interpretation to get around the "plain reading". If God created both the Heavens and the Earth on the first day, then why did He create something in particular on the second day and CALL it heaven?

No, 1:1 is a general statement that, at the beginning of time, God created the heavens and the earth. Full stop. Then, starting in verse 2, He begins to describe when he created each aspect. On the first "day" God created the light and separated it from the darkness. On the second day, he particularly created the heavens. On the third day, he particularly created the earth.

But the second creation passage does, indeed, state that they all created within the same "day" or period of time. Now, you can say that the "day" referred to in 2:4 refers to the overall week, but then you are acknowledging that this word can be used to mean another time period, even within the Creation passages.

Then Blueberry said:

"One fallacy is your 2 "thens": ... Yahweh makes a single man, then land animals and birds mixed together, and then one woman ... The chronology in your statement isn't in the Bible passage. You've read a chronology INTO the passage that isn't there.

Vs. 7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground ...
Vs. 19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast/fowl ... and brought them unto Adam

The order of the MENTION of their creations in the chapter is first the man and then the animals. But there is nothing that states it's the CHRONOLOGICAL order of their creations. The chronology isn't mentioned in this passage. But you stuck one in there."

But wait: in the second Creation passage, God created Adam in verse 2:7. Then AFTER God paraded the animals before Adam, and no companion was found, God made Eve *from* Adam. Are you saying there is not a chronology in the order of creation of Adam and Eve? And yet, the first Creation passage states that they were created in the same day: day 6. Sure, you can talk your way around this, but you cant possibly tell me that such an exegesis would be the "plain and simple" reading of the text.

In fact, even the order of the creation in the second account, notwithstanding the lack of "thens" would, in a "plain reading" be that the animals were created after Adam. He is created in verse 7. In verse 18, God says He will create a helper for Adam. In verses 19 and 20, it says that God created the animals and brought them to Adam to name, but that no companion was found among the animals for Adam. So, God created Eve to be that helper. Now tell me that a plain reading of this is NOT that the animals were created after Adam (ostensibly to see if a helper could be found), and that Eve was created after the animals since a helper was not found among them.

You can NOT in all honesty say that a plain and simple reading of this series of verses does not indicate this chronology. Yes, you can do some interpretive gymnastics to make them correlate, but then you definitely and without doubt get outside of the "plain and simple" reading that you seem to insist upon.

Blueberry Sponge · Nov 11, 2003

Vance said:
Are you saying there is not a chronology in the order of creation of Adam and Eve?

No, I didn't say that. I said there wasn't one in chapter 2 regarding Adam and the animals.

Vance said:
Now tell me that a plain reading of this is NOT that the animals were created after Adam

No, this passage doesn't say that the animals were created after Adam.

Blueberry Sponge · Nov 12, 2003

Vance said:
No, 1:1 is a general statement that, at the beginning of time, God created the heavens and the earth. Full stop. Then, starting in verse 2, He begins to describe when he created each aspect. On the first "day" God created the light and separated it from the darkness. On the second day, he particularly created the heavens. On the third day, he particularly created the earth.

I don't agree with your above comment but your comment still demonstrates that the statement: "From Genesis 1:1 - 2:3 the Bible tells us that Elohim created the heavens and the earth in 6 days" is a false statement. Your are in effect saying No, it took Elohim 3 days.

Blueberry Sponge · Nov 12, 2003

Vance said:
No, 1:1 is a general statement that, at the beginning of time, God created the heavens and the earth. Full stop. Then, starting in verse 2, He begins to describe when he created each aspect.

That is the way you should understand chapters 1 & 2. In chapter one He creates everything in 6 days - "Full stop" - and then in chapter 2 He recounts particular details of the 6 day creation. They're not 2 contradictory accounts - they're desribing the same event harmoniously.

Vance · Nov 12, 2003

No, you ignored the point. You acknowledge that there is a chronological sequence to the second account which places the creation of Eve after the creation of Adam.

But you do not address the points raised:

In fact, even the order of the creation in the second account, notwithstanding the lack of "thens" would, in a "plain reading" be that the animals were created after Adam. He is created in verse 7. In verse 18, God says He will create a helper for Adam. In verses 19 and 20, it says that God created the animals and brought them to Adam to name, but that no companion was found among the animals for Adam. So, God created Eve to be that helper. Now tell me that a plain reading of this is NOT that the animals were created after Adam (ostensibly to see if a helper could be found), and that Eve was created after the animals since a helper was not found among them.

You can NOT in all honesty say that a plain and simple reading of this series of verses does not indicate this chronology. Yes, you can do some interpretive gymnastics to make them correlate, but then you definitely and without doubt get outside of the "plain and simple" reading that you seem to insist upon.

Now, I am not talking about whether your interpretive efforts can harmonize them. I am not even saying that the two accounts are ultimately contradictory. I am saying that a "plain" and straightforward reading of the text would result in that chronology in the second creation passage.

If you are not even willing to acknowledge this simple point, then I see you are not willing to discuss this matter honestly.

Blueberry Sponge · Nov 13, 2003

Vance said:
Now, I am not talking about whether your interpretive efforts can harmonize them. I am not even saying that the two accounts are ultimately contradictory.

"Ultimately" contradictory? Are you saying they're "some other kind of" contradictory?

Vance said:
I am saying that a "plain" and straightforward reading of the text would result in that chronology in the second creation passage.

Only after you redefine "plain" and "straightforward" to fit want you want the text to say. Adam first and then the animals is not the result of a plain and straighforward reading of the text when when that chronology is not there. You're reading that chronology into the text. That's not a plain or straightforward reading.

Vance · Nov 13, 2003

Well, now, that is just ridiculous. Look at the whole second account. Here is the order the story is told, albeit without using the word "then":

Adam is created.
He had no helper.
God decided to make a helper.
God created all the animals.
God showed all the animals to Adam.
No suitable helper was found, so God created Eve.

This is the ORDER of the story EXACTLY as given in the second account. Now you tell me what the plain and simple chronology of that account is.

And, yes, there is a huge difference between a inconsistency based on the plain reading and there ultimately being an error in the text.

Blueberry Sponge · Nov 14, 2003

It's the order of MENTION. That's all. We know the chronology that the woman was created after Adam because the evidence is in the text (a simple and plain reading). We DON'T know that God "decided" to make a helper AFTER He created Adam. It's MENTIONED afterward but I'm sure the decision was made way back in God's eternal plan. Then it MENTIONS that God created the animals. But it doesn't say WHEN. We already know when from chapter one. Then it MENTIONS that He brought the animals to Adam for naming. Obviously the animals were brought to Adam after Adam was created (a simple and plain reading). Don't read chronologies into the text that aren't there. Acknowledge the ones that ARE there.

Karl - Liberal Backslider · Nov 14, 2003

Blueberry Sponge said:
It's the order of MENTION. That's all. We know the chronology that the woman was created after Adam because the evidence is in the text (a simple and plain reading). We DON'T know that God "decided" to make a helper AFTER He created Adam. It's MENTIONED afterward but I'm sure the decision was made way back in God's eternal plan. Then it MENTIONS that God created the animals. But it doesn't say WHEN. We already know when from chapter one. Then it MENTIONS that He brought the animals to Adam for naming. Obviously the animals were brought to Adam after Adam was created (a simple and plain reading). Don't read chronologies into the text that aren't there. Acknowledge the ones that ARE there.

The chronology is clear. God makes then man, then says "It is not good for the man to be alone - I will make a helpmeet suitable for him"

Only a prior commitment to harmony can attempt to twist these texts into agreement. I prefer to engage with what they actually say, and to hang with literality.

The lesson of Geocentrism

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