The Last Day

n2thelight · Feb 8, 2014

Mark

You mean this mystery?

I Corinthians 15:14 "And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain."

Paul is saying that if Christ is not risen then we are all wasting our time studying the Word of God. It is taught by some weak minded souls, that the disciples stole the body of Christ from the tomb, that Christ was really drugged while he was on the cross. This is directed to these weak minded folks that would believe such trot.
Jesus Christ came, born "Emmanuel", born in a manger as the king of Israel. In His first coming he came as a servant and as the Savior, however the next time He comes it will be as "The King of kings and the Lord of Lords". Friend, if you don't believe that Christ rose from the dead, then you are wasting your time being a Christian.

I Corinthians 15:15 "Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ: Whom He raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not."

If the dead have not already been raised in Christ, then that would make us all a bunch of liars. This was the exact position that Paul was in before he was struck down on the road to Damascus. Paul was a zealot for the Sanhedrin Jewish leaders to track down Christians for preaching that Christ was raised up from the dead. Then when Paul saw the almighty power of Christ, he knew that Jesus was raised from the dead, for there He was in person.

I Corinthians 15:16 "For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:"

You had better watch out when you follow someone that teaches soul sleep. It is from soul sleep that the rapture doctrine comes from, and you place your soul in danger. At death instantly the soul returns to the Father that gave it, and to believe other wise is to be ignorant and heathen [non-believer].

n2thelight · Feb 8, 2014

Old Timer

Why do you deny the resurrection of the dead?

I do not deny,the resurrection,I just dont believe in soul sleep.......

The Resurrection Body

For Christians, the focus is not meant to be on the body that has died, but on the spirit that rises into the coming life. For two thousand years, Christians have been nourished by the hope that their loved ones who have died are happy in heaven with the Lord, not lying cold and dead in the ground. Nevertheless, some people believe that the resurrection will be a resurrection of the physical body that lies in the grave, and that when a person dies the soul remains unconscious for years or centuries until Christ comes again and brings all the bodies out of the grave and reawakens the souls that are sleeping within those bodies. Yet it is not only more comforting to picture a person rising immediately into the next life after death, but it is also more in keeping with the teachings of the Bible.

We Rise Soon after Death

Jesus tells of a poor man Lazarus and his rich neighbor who both died. The rich man ended up in hell, while Lazarus went up to heaven. (Luke 16: 22-24) Both of them came into the next life immediately after death. There was no hint here of a long wait to come back into their bodies, for the rich man's brothers were still alive on earth.
When Jesus was on the cross He promised one of the thieves, "Todayyou will be with Me in paradise" (Luke 23:43). Jesus did not say, "Just wait twenty centuries or more, and I will fix up your body again."

Since we rise immediately after death, people who have died are in the spiritual world, and they can be seen by those whose spiritual sight is open. For example, when Peter, James and John had their eyes opened to see Jesus in His glory, they also saw Moses and Elijah, who were clearly not in their graves. When Saul went to the witch of En Dor, he spoke with the spirit of Samuel who appeared as an old man (1 Samuel 28: 3-19), and Lazarus found himself in the bosom of Abraham in heaven (Luke 16:22-24). In fact, when Jesus said to the Sadducees that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is the God of the living, not the dead, the clear implication is that Abramam, Isaac and Jacob had already risen from death into life (Matthew 22:31-32; Mark 12:26-27; Luke 20:37-38). He is "the God of the Living," not "the God of the dead who will centuries later come back to life."

Angels have sometimes appeared to people whose eyes were opened to see them. Very often, the Bible says that these angels are people. For example, we read that three men appeared to Abraham (Genesis 18: 2), and that when Jacob wrestled with an angel he wrestled with a man (Genesis 32: 24). Likewise, the angels were people who appeared to Joshua (Joshua 5: 13-14), Manoah and his wife (Judges 13: 6-11), Ezekiel (Ezekiel 9: 2-3,11; 10: 2-3,6), Daniel (Daniel 9: 21; 10: 5; 12: 6-7), Zechariah (Zechariah 1:8,11), and the women at the sepulcher (Mark 16: 5; Luke 24: 4). The Bible says these angels were people, and clearly none of them were still in the grave.

There Is a Spiritual Body

The Bible teaches that we rise with a different body than the one that is placed in the grave. "There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body" (1 Corinthians 15: 44). The natural body is what is "sown" in the grave, and the spiritual body is what is raised up (1 Corinthians 15: 37, 42-44). People on earth have an earthly body, while people in heaven have a spiritual, heavenly body (1 Corinthians 15: 46-49). The fact that people in the spiritual world have a spiritual body is evident from the appearance of angels mentioned above. For example, Saul recognized Samuel after his death because he had a body similar to the body he had on earth. Clearly it was Samuel's spiritual body, since his physical body was still in grave, and it was his spirit (1 Samuel 28:13) that had risen and was conversing with Saul.

The fact that there is a spiritual body is also clear from the story of Lazarus and the rich man. After death Lazarus was in the bosom of Abraham; the rich man lifted his eyes, and asked that Lazarus might dip his finger in water to cool his tongue (Luke 16: 22-24).

The body we have in the spiritual world is not the body that we put into the grave. The Bible says that our physical body is corruptible and mortal, which means that it does not last, but rots and dies. "Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither does corruption inherit incorruption" (1 Corinthians 15: 50). "We brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out" (1 Timothy 6:7). When we go to our eternal home "then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it" (Ecclesiastes 12:5, 7; compare Genesis 3:19). So our earthly body cannot go to heaven, but when we put off our physical body, our corruptible and mortal life is changed into an incorruptible and immortal life (1 Corinthians 15: 53-54). Evidently when Paul said this, some people were wondering if everyone would sleep a long time in the grave before the resurrection, for Paul reassures people that we will not all sleep, and that it will not take ages but will happen immediately, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet, that is, when we die.

The Grain of Wheat

One of the ways that Jesus teaches us about the life after death is by saying, "Unless a grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it produces much grain" (John 12: 24; compare Matthew 13:31; Mark 4:31; Luke 13:19). This is very similar to the analogy that Paul uses: "Someone will say, 'How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?' Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grainperhaps wheat or some other grain. But God gives it a body as he pleases, and to each seed its own body." (1 Corinthians 15: 35-38)

When a seed is put into the ground, the outer husk of this seed simply rots away. But within that seed is a germ of life that is raised up with a completely new plant or body around it. Paul says very clearly here that the body which is raised is not the body which is put into the ground. Furthermore, when the farmer plants his seed, it immediately begins growing. It does not remain dormant in the ground for centuries before a new life begins. Likewise, when our bodies are buried in the ground, the germ of life within each of us is immediately raised up clothed with a new body appropriate for the spiritual world.

Objections

Those who believe in a resurrection of the physical body may quote passages to support that belief, but an examination of those passages will show that this is not the teaching of the passages themselves, but is an assumption that is read into them.

Eternal Life Has Begun

Eternal life is not something that is waiting for us in the distant future. There is no reason to think that we have to wait for a long time, for Jesus tells us that for those who accept the life He gives, the kingdom of heaven is already within them (Luke 17:21), and they have already begun living eternally (John 5:24, 17:2, 1 John 5: 11, 12, 20). That life is not interrupted by death, but rather becomes more abundant and complete.

Tammy · Feb 8, 2014

Old Timer said:
I have a question which is based upon John's gospel where he speaks of the resurrection on the last day.

Is the Last Day the Day of the LORD?

Would it be the thousand years mentioned in Revelation 20?

Is that what John means when he writes about the resurrection on the last day?

Thanks for all your help in Christ Jesus,

OT

Good morning, OT ~

A verse that helps me understand this is 2 Peter 3:10:

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 2 Peter 3:10.

That verse makes it pretty clear that "the day of the Lord" is the Second Coming of Jesus.

The term "last day" is used by Jesus several times:

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

In EVERY verse where Jesus uses the term "last day", He is referring to the resurrection ("raise him up") at His Second Coming.

So I believe YES - the "last day" and the "day of the Lord" are the SAME.

Old Timer · Feb 8, 2014

n2thelight said:
I do not deny,the resurrection,I just dont believe in soul sleep.......

Don't mean to give you another link to read,but please read the below,it explains exactly my view....

You're the 2nd person now who has sent me a commentary which speaks of the last day (title of this thread) as the last day of our life, rather than the last day itself.

And it's clear that you deny the bodily resurrection of the dead. I'm not sure why you would deny that when it is perfectly clear what we are talking about here. I didn't mention soul sleep, we are talking about the resurrection of the dead bodily.

Why would you deny that is my question to you.

Let's go back to 1 Thess 4 for a minute.

IF the dead are already raised and with Christ, then why would they rise first, before those who are alive and remain?

You're telling me that they're already in heaven with their spiritual bodies so why does Paul say that they shall rise first?

According to your belief, they have already been raised, right?

Old Timer · Feb 8, 2014

Tammy said:
Good morning, OT ~

A verse that helps me understand this is 2 Peter 3:10:

That verse makes it pretty clear that "the day of the Lord" is the Second Coming of Jesus.

The term "last day" is used by Jesus several times:

In EVERY verse where Jesus uses the term "last day", He is referring to the resurrection ("raise him up") at His Second Coming.

So I believe YES - the "last day" and the "day of the Lord" are the SAME.

Thank you for your response Tammy. This is how I think that I see it now as well, that the day of the Lord is a thousand year last day.

Tammy · Feb 8, 2014

Old Timer said:
Thank you for your response Tammy. This is how I think that I see it now as well, that the day of the Lord is a thousand year last day.

How would you make the Second Coming (the Day of the Lord) to be 1000 years?

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 2 Peter 3:10.

Old Timer · Feb 8, 2014

Tammy said:
How would you make the Second Coming (the Day of the Lord) to be 1000 years?

Pretty much based upon the very scripture which you posted from Peter. This is where he also speaks of a day with the Lord being a thousand years.

If we look at the end of Revelation 20, after the thousand years are finished, that is when fire comes down out of heaven from God.

I think that is what Peter is speaking of, the end of the thousand years. The first resurrection happened at the beginning of that last day.

Confused?

Sometimes I am too but this makes sense to me that the day of the Lord is a thousand years and not a 24 hour day.

How else could John speak of the resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous being on the last day if the resurrections are a thousand years apart?

Douggg · Feb 8, 2014

n2thelight said:
Those who believe in a resurrection of the physical body may quote passages to support that belief, but an examination of those passages will show that this is not the teaching of the passages themselves, but is an assumption that is read into them.

When Thomas put his finger into Jesus wounds after the resurrection. what kind of body was that? And why would the disciples in Luke 24:52-53 be overjoyed after Jesus meeting with the resurrected Christ?

39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

52 And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:
53 And were continually in the temple, praising and blessing God. Amen.

Bible2 · Feb 8, 2014

coraline quoted Curtis in post 12:

Paul spoke of the nearness of the resurrection in his day:

Acts 24:15 (NKJV) "I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be (mello -about to be) a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.

Acts 24:15 didn't require that a resurrection was "about to" happen from the viewpoint of men in the first century AD. For Acts 26:22-23 employs mello (translated as "should") to refer even to Moses' prophesying of the first coming of Christ (Deuteronomy 18:18-19, Acts 3:22-24), which prophesying occurred some 1,400 years before his first coming.

Also, when and how in your view did the resurrection of the unjust happen?

coraline quoted Curtis in post 12:

If the TIME of the resurrection is seen as AD 70, then we know that the NATURE of the resurrection was spiritual, rather than physical.

The time of the resurrection wasn't in 70 AD, and while there is the figurative resurrection of initial salvation (e.g. Ephesians 2:5-6), the first resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 will be literal in the sense of bodily (cf. Romans 8:23). For Revelation 20:5 says "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished", meaning that the first resurrection will be the same, bodily type of resurrection as will occur sometime after the 1,000 years (Revelation 20:7-15). For not every dead person is going to be figuratively resurrected in the sense of becoming saved (Revelation 20:15), and Revelation 20:5 means that the rest of the dead (i.e. all the non-church dead of all times) will be resurrected in the same manner that the church will be resurrected in Revelation 20:4-6, but the rest of the dead won't be resurrected until sometime after the 1,000 years are over.

Also, the first resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 will be literal/bodily because it won't occur until Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), and the resurrection of the church that will occur at Jesus' 2nd coming will be a literal/bodily resurrection, just like Jesus' literal/bodily resurrection at his first coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-58; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18, Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:20-21, Luke 24:39).

coraline quoted Curtis in post 12:

The resurrection of Jesus' body verified for His disciples, the resurrection of His soul.

Believers need to be careful not to be deceived by the Gnostic/antichrist lie that Christ isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7), and that believers won't forever be in the flesh. The Bible shows that Jesus Christ wasn't resurrected as a disembodied spirit, but in his human, flesh and bones body (Luke 24:39, Hebrews 2:17). That's why his tomb is empty (Matthew 28:6), and why he still has the wounds of the crucifixion on his resurrection body (John 20:25-29). And Luke 24:39 didn't stop being true once Jesus ascended into heaven. For he will remain forever the human mediator/high priest of believers (1 Timothy 2:5, Hebrews 7:24-26), in human flesh, just like they are in human flesh (Hebrews 2:17). And when he returns, he will still have the wounds of the crucifixion on his resurrection body (Zechariah 13:6, Zechariah 12:10-14).

Gnosticism mistakenly thinks that flesh is evil in itself, and that only that which is pure spirit can be good. But Jesus proves that flesh isn't evil in itself, for he has been made flesh (John 1:1,14, Romans 1:3, Luke 24:39), and remains wholly without sin (Hebrews 4:15). Genesis also proves that flesh isn't evil in itself, but was created by God as something very good (Genesis 1:31). Adam and Eve were flesh, for they were the progenitors of the human race alive today. And they were immortal before they fell into sin, for it was only their falling into sin which made them become mortal (Genesis 2:17). So Adam and Eve started out as immortal flesh. And so the future resurrection or changing of saved people into immortal flesh bodies like Jesus has (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39, Romans 8:23-25) will be God allowing them to partake of the original, immortal-flesh condition of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden before their fall into sin.

Also, beware of the more-general Gnostic lie that even the entire physical universe is evil in itself, and that only a purely-spiritual heaven can be good. For this lie is employed by Gnosticism to revile the Creator YHWH God as some sort of evil, tyrant, lesser god, whom Gnosticism says created the physical universe as a foul prison house for the free spirits of humans, whom Gnosticism says by some mistake fell from a purely-spiritual heaven into the physical universe and became trapped in fleshly bodies. No doubt the coming Antichrist will employ this lie as part of his utter reviling of YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). But Genesis shows that our physical world was created by YHWH as something very good (Genesis 1:31).

And the Bible shows that the whole plan of Creation wasn't that humans, who are both flesh and spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:23, Luke 24:39), would become purely-spiritual ghosts and float forever on clouds in a purely-spiritual heaven with God, but that God would become both flesh and spirit like man (John 1:1,14), and that God would ultimately come down from heaven to live with man on a future, new earth (Revelation 21:1-4), just as God had walked on the earth in the Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve (Genesis 3:8). Also, on the new earth, saved humanity will be allowed to eat from the tree of life (Revelation 2:7, Revelation 22:2,14), just as Adam and Eve hadn't been forbidden to eat from it in their unfallen state (Genesis 2:9,16,17). So, with regard to saved people, God will completely undo the effect of the fall of Adam and Eve. Saved people will be able to live in an earthly, physical paradise forever with God (Revelation 2:7), just as Adam and Eve and their descendants might have done had not Adam and Eve fallen into sin.

So beware the Gnostic lie. Beware the Antichrist.

coraline quoted Curtis in post 12:

God gives us a spiritual body!

When obedient believers' bodies will be raised/resurrected into spiritual/heavenly bodies (1 Corinthians 15:44-49), they will still be fleshly bodies, but no longer "natural" (i.e. no longer mortal) fleshly bodies (1 Corinthians 15:44,53). Instead, they will be immortal fleshly bodies like Jesus was raised/resurrected into (Luke 24:39; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Romans 8:23-25) by the spiritual/heavenly power of the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:11,23-25, Romans 1:4; 1 Corinthians 15:44).

Bible2 · Feb 8, 2014

yeshuasavedme said in post 25:

Yes, it is clear from Scripture that the resurrection of the righteous is in three stages:
First of Firstfruits
Firstfruits
Gleanings -when Jesus returns at the end of the Tribulation to set up his kingdom.

The 3 stages of a harvest are firstfruits, main harvest, and gleaning, which can typify 3 bodily resurrections: 1. the past, firstfruits bodily resurrection of Jesus only (1 Corinthians 15:20,23); 2. the future bodily resurrection of the entire church at his 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:23,52; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which will occur immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 and right before the millennium (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6); and then 3. the bodily resurrection at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15), which will occur sometime after the millennium and the subsequent Gog/Magog rebellion are over (Revelation 20:7-15, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

yeshuasavedme said in post 25:

Then there is no more resurrection of the righteous, and not one soul who enters the millennial kingdom on earth as the remnant of the Jews and the sheep Gentiles [the Blessed of YHWH, they are called] dies in their body, ever, and they each live their thousand year day and they are all transformed to glory at the end of their day, as Adam would have been [as some ancient Jewish writings do say, in that Adam did not live his "thousand year day" because of sin, after which he would have been transformed, as the first of many sons of God of the human being kind.

Regarding "the sheep Gentiles", Matthew 25:31 doesn't mean that Matthew 25:32-46 (just as 2 Peter 3:10a doesn't mean that 2 Peter 3:10b) will happen immediately at Jesus' 2nd coming, only that it will happen sometime subsequent to his 2nd coming, at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15), after the future millennium and subsequent events are over (Revelation 20:7-15).

Matthew 25:32-46 refers to the "nations" being judged by their works at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:12-13), whereas at the 2nd coming, Jesus will judge only those in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; Matthew 25:19-30). Also, Matthew 25:41,46 refers to the unsaved being sent (at the time of Matthew 25:41,46) into the everlasting punishment of the lake of fire and brimstone at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:15), whereas at the 2nd coming only the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) and his False Prophet will be cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 19:20). The saved "sheep" at the sheep/goat judgment would include those who became believers during the millennium (Isaiah 66:19-21). Matthew 25:34 refers to obedient believers inheriting the kingdom of the Father on the new earth in New Jerusalem, the Father's house (Revelation 21:1-7, John 14:2).

yeshuasavedme said in post 25:

There are sinners who die in the millennial reign, for their own sins, but at age 100, and there is no more resurrection of the righteous ever, for no righteous ever die anymore, in body, after Jesus sets up His millennial kingdom on earth.

Isaiah 65:20 could refer to a new race of humans which will be created along with the new earth (Isaiah 65:17), but which will fall into sin and mortality like Adam and Eve did. But even as mortals, they could live for about 900 years, like Adam and generations after him lived that long (Genesis 5:5-27), so that if one of them dies at 100, it will be like he died in his youth (Isaiah 65:20b).

If Isaiah 65:20 does refer to the new earth, then it can't refer to any humans born on our present earth. For by the time the new earth is created (Revelation 21:1), all humans born on our present earth who got saved and remained obedient will have been resurrected (if dead) or changed (if alive) into immortal bodies (Revelation 21:4; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Romans 8:23-25). And all who didn't get saved or who remained disobedient will have been cast into the lake of fire and brimstone (Revelation 21:8, Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11, Isaiah 66:22,24, Matthew 25:41,46, Mark 9:45-46) or into the outer darkness (Matthew 25:30, Matthew 8:12, Jude 1:13b) of outer space.

The resurrected, immortal humans could minister to the new race of fallen, mortal humans (of Isaiah 65:20) in the same way that angels now minister to us (Hebrews 1:14). For resurrected, immortal humans will be equal to the angels (Luke 20:36).

Bible2 · Feb 8, 2014

Old Timer said in post 26:

I was often taught that only Israel will be taken through the great tribulation (time of Jacob's trouble) and that the church will not be here as they're citizens of heaven and not earth.

The time of Jacob's trouble which he will be saved out of (Jeremiah 30:7) won't be (as is sometimes taught) the entire future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, but only the final pillaging of the Jews in Jerusalem at the very end of the tribulation, right before Jesus returns and saves them (Zechariah 14:2-5). The church, including Gentile believers (Revelation 7:9,14), will be in the tribulation (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6).

Old Timer said in post 26:

In a way I suppose that it ties in with the millennial kingdom. Do you believe that the church of God (bride of Christ?) will be here in that last day or will they remain in heaven?

Jesus will physically reign on the earth during the 1,000 years, for the 1,000 years will begin after his 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), when he will physically land on the earth and rule it from Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:4-21). And because Jesus will reign physically on the earth during the 1,000 years, so will the physically resurrected church, for the physically resurrected church will reign with Jesus during the 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6). And so in Revelation 5:10, the reference to the church reigning in the future "on the earth" includes the 1,000 years. Also, in Revelation 2:26-29, the reigning of the church physically over the nations can refer to the 1,000 years. There's no reason to exclude the 1,000 years from Revelation 5:10 or Revelation 2:26-29, just as there's no reason to exclude the earth from Revelation 20:4-6.

Also, the church will reign forever on the new earth. For the church will reign forever in New Jerusalem (Revelation 22:5, Revelation 21:10 to 22:5), which will descend from heaven to a new earth (Revelation 21:1-3, Revelation 21:10) sometime after the future millennium and subsequent events are over (Revelation 20:7 to 21:3).

*******

Old Timer said in post 30:

Revelation speaks of the mark as something with which you shall not be able to buy or sell.

That's right.

The "mark of the beast" (Revelation 13:16-17, Revelation 16:2) will be a literal, physical mark which will be visible to people, so they can easily tell in every situation whether or not someone should be permitted to buy or sell (Revelation 13:17). It will be visible also because the original Greek of Revelation 13:16 shows that the mark will be placed only "on" (epi), not inside, people's right hands or foreheads. Also, it will be placed on people probably by scarification. For in Revelation 13:16 one of the definitions of the original Greek word (charagma, G5480) translated as the "mark" is "a scratch or etching" (Strong's Greek Dictionary), and scarification is the scratching or etching (i.e. the cutting) of the skin to leave a permanent mark. The reason people will be given the mark in Revelation 13:16, in the context of what had just been shown previously in Revelation 13:4,8,15, will be to serve as a visible indicator to other people that they are loyal worshippers of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) and his image (Revelation 13:4,8,15), just as some Luciferians today put a mark on themselves by scarification.

The mark will consist of only the Antichrist's name "or" some representation of the gematrial number of his name (666) (Revelation 13:17-18), meaning that the mark will be the Antichrist's name for some people and a representation of the gematrial number of his name for other people. And the mark will be placed only on the right hand (probably on the palm) "or" on the forehead (Revelation 13:16), meaning that it will be placed on the right hand of some people and on the forehead of other people.

Those who refuse to receive the Antichrist's mark won't be allowed to buy or sell anything (Revelation 13:17), and they will be executed by being beheaded if they refuse to worship the Antichrist and his image (Revelation 13:15, Revelation 20:4). Christians must be willing to suffer this fate rather than agree to receive the Antichrist's mark or worship him or his image, for those people who agree to do these things, even if they are Christians, will suffer God's wrath in fire and brimstone forever (Revelation 14:9-13), whereas those Christians who refuse to do these things, even though they will be beheaded, will subsequently be physically resurrected into immortality (along with the rest of the obedient church of all times) at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 20:4-6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-58). And even before their resurrection, at the moment of their death, their still-conscious souls will be brought into the presence of Jesus in heaven (cf. 2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23, Revelation 6:9-10, Luke 23:43,46).

In the future, when the world begins to worship the Antichrist as God (Revelation 13:8; 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36), some people could gladly be willing to have his name placed by scarification on their right palm, just as lovers in the past were sometimes known to have their loved ones' initials placed by scarification on their palm (cf. also Isaiah 49:16, Jeremiah 48:37, Leviticus 19:28, Leviticus 21:5). Other of the Antichrist's worshippers could gladly be willing to have his name placed by scarification on their forehead, thinking (mistakenly) that they are fulfilling the Christian idea of Revelation 22:4, which refers to the future point in time when Jesus will put God's name visibly on the forehead of obedient Christians (Revelation 3:12). The Antichrist's miracle-working False Prophet, who will be the one to cause everyone to be marked with the Antichrist's mark (Revelation 13:16-18), could even convince people that he (the False Prophet) is Jesus returned. (But he won't say that he is Christ, for he and the Antichrist will deny that Jesus is the Christ, and will deny that Christ is in the flesh: 1 John 2:22; 2 John 1:7.)

Instead of having the Antichrist's name engraved on their right hand or forehead, some of his worshippers will have the gematrial number of his name (666) (Revelation 13:17c-18) engraved on their right hand or forehead. But because some people could refuse to have "666" placed on their body, in order to make a mark of 666 acceptable to all people, it could be disguised to look like something else in those cases where people demand something other than "666". For example, it could be disguised in some cases to look like "777", or "111", or "WWW", or "VVV", or "|| || ||", or "FFF". For the 6th letter of the ancient Hebrew alphabet (Vav) represents the number 6, but it looks like a "7", or a "1", and it is transliterated into English as either a "W" or a "V". Also, two thin vertical lines "||" represent the number 6 on many UPC codes. And the letter "F" has a numerical value of 6 in English gematria.

In an awful coincidence (or maybe it is not just a coincidence), "FFF" also stands for an extremely powerful type of nuclear bomb: Fission-Fusion-Fission. Could this be the type of bomb which the 10 kings of the Antichrist's empire will employ to burn up the cities of the world at the end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Revelation 17:12,16,17a, Revelation 16:19, Revelation 19:2,11)?

The "WWW" which has been placed on many internet addresses, and the "|| || ||" which has been placed across many UPC codes on products (i.e. they have a "||" at the beginning, middle, and end of their UPC codes), are harbingers of when Lucifer will give the Antichrist ownership of everything on the earth (Revelation 13:2b; cf. Luke 4:7), and of the Antichrist placing his "brand" on everything, like a rancher places his "brand" on all his cattle. For both "WWW" and "|| || ||" are disguised representations of the gematrial number of the Antichrist's name: 666 (Revelation 13:17c-18). But Revelation 13:16 isn't fulfilled by some internet addresses having a "WWW", nor by some products having "|| || ||" on their UPC codes, for Revelation 13:16 refers only to when people will be given the Antichrist's mark, on either their right hand or forehead.

Those assigned to have the mark placed on their forehead (instead of on their right hand) (Revelation 13:16) could be an elite, illumined, cognoscenti class of Gnostic Luciferians who alone will have been given knowledge of the ultimate secrets of the Antichrist's Gnostic Luciferianism. The Antichrist will be both a Luciferian, a worshipper of Lucifer/Satan the dragon (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9), and a Gnostic, someone who denies that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3), and forbids marriage and the eating of meat (1 Timothy 4:1-3). The cream of his cognoscenti could be a faux 144,000, consisting of male virgins (as a counterfeit of Revelation 14:4) who have never eaten meat. If they receive on their forehead the mark of the Antichrist's name (instead of a representation of the number of his name) (Revelation 13:17), this will be as a counterfeit of YHWH's 144,000 in Revelation 14:1. But the Antichrist won't pretend that he is YHWH, just as he won't pretend that he is Christ. Instead, as a Gnostic, he will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). And his Gnostic denial that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3) will disqualify him (under his mistaken Gnostic doctrine) from being Christ.

Bible2 · Feb 8, 2014

n2thelight said in post 42:

"Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither does corruption inherit incorruption" (1 Corinthians 15: 50).

1 Corinthians 15:50 refers to people in mortal/corruptible flesh and blood bodies, as opposed to people in immortal/incorruptible resurrection "flesh and bone" bodies (possibly without blood as we know it) like Jesus was resurrected into (Luke 24:39; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Romans 8:23-25).

1 Corinthians 15:50 means that people in mortal bodies won't inherit the eternal (as opposed to the millennial) aspect of the kingdom of God, which will be on the new earth in the descended New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:1 to 22:15), after the future millennium and subsequent events are over (Revelation 20:7 to 22:15).

1 Corinthians 15:50 doesn't require that no people in mortal bodies will inherit the millennial aspect of the kingdom. For the elect Jews who won't become believers until Jesus' 2nd coming (Romans 11:25-29, Zechariah 12:10-14) could inherit the millennial aspect of the kingdom (Zechariah 14:5-21, Matthew 19:28, Luke 22:30) in their mortal bodies. For the resurrection/changing of believers into immortal bodies (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53) could be experienced only by those who had become believers before the 2nd coming.

Also, 1 Corinthians 15:50 doesn't require that no people in mortal bodies will even enter the millennial aspect of the kingdom, i.e. without inheriting it. For just as people can enter someone's house and stay there for awhile without inheriting that house, so the people left alive at the 2nd coming (Matthew 24:39b-40) who won't get saved at that time will enter the millennial aspect of the kingdom in their mortal bodies without inheriting the kingdom. Instead, they will be its forced subjects (Zechariah 14:16-19, Psalms 66:3), ruled over with a rod of iron by Jesus and the bodily resurrected church (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6, Psalms 2).

Similarly, 1 Corinthians 15:50 doesn't require that no people in mortal bodies can even enter the 3rd-heaven aspect of the kingdom, i.e. without inheriting it. For at the time of Revelation 11:11-12, the two witnesses will be in resuscitated mortal bodies, like, e.g., the resuscitated mortal bodies of Lazarus and Tabitha (John 11:43-44, Acts 9:36-40). For the resurrection of believers into immortal bodies won't happen until Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which won't occur until after the entire future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 is over (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). And when Revelation 11:12 shows that the two witnesses will ascend up to the 3rd heaven in their mortal bodies, it doesn't say that they will inherit the 3rd heaven, just as when Paul says that he at one point during his lifetime could have been taken to the 3rd heaven in his mortal body (2 Corinthians 12:2-7), he doesn't say that he inherited the 3rd heaven, and just as when Enoch and Elijah were taken to the 3rd heaven in their mortal bodies (Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:11), it doesn't say that they inherited the 3rd heaven.

n2thelight said in post 42:

Eternal life is not something that is waiting for us in the distant future.

That's right, in the sense of initial salvation, but not ultimate salvation. For initial salvation is the salvation that Christians have now (Ephesians 2:5) in their mortal bodies, whereas ultimate salvation is that salvation which is ready to be revealed in the last time (1 Peter 1:5) and is always drawing nearer (Romans 13:11), that salvation which Christians are still hoping for (1 Thessalonians 5:8, Romans 8:23-25, Mark 10:30), and which Jesus will bring to obedient Christians at his 2nd coming (Hebrews 9:28, Hebrews 5:9), when he will resurrect (if dead) or change (if alive) their mortal bodies into immortal, physical bodies (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:16), just like the immortal, physical body that he obtained at his resurrection (Philippians 3:20-21, Luke 24:39; 1 John 3:2, Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:11-14).

ebedmelech · Feb 8, 2014

All we need to understand about resurrection is written in 1 Corinthians 15, where Paul is answering doubts within the church about resurrection.

How anyone can doubt the physical resurrection is beyond me. Christians are resurrected spiritually, which is the "born again" experience Jesus spoke of to Nicodemus in John 3.

Paul also gives us insight in Romans 6, Ephesians 2, and in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17.

The physical resurrection is to come but we are already spiritually resurrected to life in Christ. Romans 8.

coraline · Feb 8, 2014

Ok, mark k, let's look at your proposed interpretation closely:

And if Christ be in you, the body (G4983) is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. (Rom 8:10)

But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies (G4983) by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. (Rom 8:11)

For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, (G4983) ye shall live. (Rom 8:13)
Still think you're being Biblical?

1) What does Romans 8:10 say and mean? Paul says the body (man's flesh- body) is DEAD bc of sin. Now follow me with his next statement in v.10: but the Spirit is LIFE bc of righteousness. Ok, so .....believers only who are given His Holy Spirit have & inherit "eternal life" - because of His righteousness. Agree?
But when could believers actually inherit life after death? Paul & St. John describe an "already but not yet" status for believers putting on immortality & going to heaven.
Their statements agree with Jesus' in John 3:13, 13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man

So, we see that the Spirit within them/us is our guarantee of eternal life bc we lay down our flesh (body) & God gives us a spiritual body to dwell in heaven with (1 Cor.15)

But...the believers couldn't go to heaven until "the age to come" came according to our Lord,

Believers in the Bible were still living in the "this age" (old covenant age)

Levirate marriage (marrying & giving in marriage) was part of the Old Covenant law, & still in place bc the O.C. still hadn't passed away for Israel, according to Hebrews (written about AD66)

2) Now, I see you left out v.12 in Rom.8, so let's let the scripture flow in context to understand Paul properly.
Rom. 8:11-13, NKJV:
11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. Sonship Through the Spirit

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Paul then concludes his statement (the therefore) saying believers are not debtors to the flesh. Only by walking in the Spirit do we avoid the sins of the flesh.

Paul is not referring to our bodies after death in Romans 8.
He is describing how the carnal man is dead bc of sin. And in our previous life (without the Spirit) we lived in the flesh & did deeds of the flesh. And how that didn't bring life to us.

Paul's statements in Romans 8 agree with his 2Cor. epistle:
2Cor. 5:16-21,
16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God. 21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

So, Paul doesn't contradict himself by saying our "mortal flesh will be "quickened" to rise in the afterlife. In 1 Cor.15, he says we take on Jesus' immortality at death, bc the Spirit is our guarantee of eternal life ( BTW- "in the age to come" - when the Old Covenant heaven & earth would officially pass away)

We don't get the self-same body at death. God gives us a spiritual body as He pleases. (1Cor.15)

yeshuasavedme · Feb 8, 2014

Old Timer said:
Thank you again yeshuasavedme, amazing stuff.

I was often taught that only Israel will be taken through the great tribulation (time of Jacob's trouble) and that the church will not be here as they're citizens of heaven and not earth.

Would you share some thoughts on that or is it too far removed from the topic etc?

In a way I suppose that it ties in with the millennial kingdom. Do you believe that the church of God (bride of Christ?) will be here in that last day or will they remain in heaven?

It goes back to the beginning, to the fall of Adam and his being cast down from the third heaven where Paradise is, and the promise of the restoration of all things by the Seed
[the Son of Man in heaven extended by His Living Spirit into the new creation human being "Firstborn son of God for earth" garment which He donned to be Kinsman/Redeemer at the incarnation, to come in flesh as -Isaiah 59]

of the Woman

[Zion above, spiritualized as a woman from Genesis 3 to Rev 22],

in that Adam was taken to the third heaven

[the Hebrew word, "taken", transliterated to English "laqach" means "to remove from one place to another for a specific purpose": "to go get; fetch; marry"; etc..]:
to rule over his dominion as high king and high priest of it, in fellowship with the Creator daily, and the guard of Paradise [really: Shamar means to guard, and is translated "rest" in KJV when Adam was taken way from earth below/raptured and set in the Garden to labor for God there, and to "keep/guard the Garden" ]BLB - Gen 2: Book of Beginnings - Genesis 2 (Blue Letter Bible: KJV - King James Version).

When Adam became defiled, he was driven out/cast down -the Hebrew also means "to divorce" and the Woman [Zion above] would not get the living stones [Hebrew "eben"] born from Adam's loins, as holy human being sons for God [Hebrew ben] to build [Hebrew banah] up Zion above, for the Glory.

That is the purpose Adam was made one spirit, and male and female, with the seed in his loins already written in the Book of Lfie and written there as to their parts and pieces and boundaried times [Acts 17], to come forth in their season as living stones to build up Zion above for the Glory to indwell.

Paradise is in the third heaven, and the stories of heaven [sha-mayim] were all stretched out from the earth between the divided in two waters [mayim] on day 2 of creation week. So Adam was taken to heaven's third stretched out story and set in Paradise there, as the firstborn living son of God of the human being kind, and made a guard of Paradise, and was created to bring forth the building stones [sons] for the Temple not made with hands, for the Glory to indwell. Malachi 2:15 states Adam was made one spirit and male and female to bring forth the [human being] sons for God's temple to be built -for His glory to indwell

At Adam's divorce [being driven out and cast down and no entry as Adam, again, and the irrevocably defiled forever ruined temple], the "Woman of the Spirit/Zion above" was then a barren widow; but the plan for the redemption and ransom of the kingdom lost and the seed of the Adam to build up Zion in the New Man name, was already prepared, from the beginning of creation: YHWH would come in flesh as Kinsman/Redeemer; ransom the lost seed and the lost kingdom; and unite the heavens with the earth, again, in the restoration of all things; and the adopted sons will be dwelling in Paradise where Adam was cast down from, and be the "sons and the "married wife" of the formerly barren Widow/Zion of the heavenlies; and the "heavens will be planted" by the adopted sons of the second creation Firstborn Son of God/Messiah in flesh, and the Patriarchal, ever living, Everlasting Father, High Priest and High King of earth.

So to answer your question without further detail from the Word: the Church is not going to dwell on earth below, as their purpose for being adopted is fulfilled, and they are transformed to the glory bodies, and dwell in heaven to rule over earth below, and are building stones for the building up of Zion above, which Zion below is the "waymark.Sign" to.

No: our eternal home is not earth below, but heaven above, where Adam lost position as son of God in the fall, and got driven out of, at the fall.

We go back to heaven above, the third story, in the fulfilled purpose which Adam did not fulfill when he got driven out of the third heaven, which was to live his millennial "day" and be be transformed to glory for the building of Zion, as all his sons/seed would have been, in their times.

As adopted sons of God, and as the City being built/ Zion of the Spirit, we are the "Ishyah"/wife of the Firstborn who adopts us, and being perfected in body, soul, and spirit -and with the New Man name- we "Plant the heavens", and rule earth -if we are found faithful- from the heavens and "found/hold the earth" as the reset "pillars" of it: -Psalm 75:2,3, in the Hebrew shows God "resets the foundations of earth" when He raptures His Congregation from earth and casts down the principalities and powers, the rulers and judges in the heavenlies, who have not kept their charge in faith [Psalm 82, in the Hebrew, warns them -the unfaithful elohym- that they shall die like Adam, the one prince, and be cast down, like him].

Psa 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods/elohym; and all of you are children of the most High.

Psa 82:7 But ye shall die like Adam, and be cast down like that one/echad prince/sar.

Isa 51:16 And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people.

coraline · Feb 8, 2014

Bible2 said:
Acts 24:15 didn't require that a resurrection was "about to" happen from the viewpoint of men in the first century AD. For Acts 26:22-23 employs mello (translated as "should") to refer even to Moses' prophesying of the first coming of Christ (Deuteronomy 18:18-19, Acts 3:22-24), which prophesying occurred some 1,400 years before his first coming.

Acts 3:22-26 is simple to understand for anyone, imo.
22 For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. 23 And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’[b] 24 Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also foretold[c] these days. 25 You are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.’[d] 26 To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities.”

And Acts 26:22-23 doesn't state that Moses said Jesus was "about to come" either.

22 Therefore, having obtained help from God, to this day I stand, witnessing both to small and great, saying no other things than those which the prophets and Moses said would come— 23 that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles.”

Oh, I missed Acts 24:15. It says "about to be" in Greek too!
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Greek_Index.htm

mark kennedy · Feb 8, 2014

coraline said:
And Acts 26:22-23 doesn't state that Moses said Jesus was "about to come" either.

For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days. Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities. (Acts 3:22-26)

What it's saying is that the Prophet spoken if by Moses has come, Jesus is the Prophet. It further says he calls them to repent. Being 'raised' in this sense isn't being raised bodily if that's what your getting at.

coraline said:
Ok, mark k, let's look at your proposed interpretation closely:

1) What does Romans 8:10 say and mean? Paul says the body (man's flesh- body) is DEAD bc of sin. Now follow me with his next statement in v.10: but the Spirit is LIFE bc of righteousness. Ok, so .....believers only who are given His Holy Spirit have & inherit "eternal life" - because of His righteousness. Agree?

That's right.

But when could believers actually inherit life after death? Paul & St. John describe an "already but not yet" status for believers putting on immortality & going to heaven.
Their statements agree with Jesus' in John 3:13, 13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man

There is no 'already but not yet', it's not important but it's a non sequitur from your statement about the indwelling and new birth of the Holy Spirit. What exactly am I supposed to be looking at so carefully?

So, we see that the Spirit within them/us is our guarantee of eternal life bc we lay down our flesh (body) & God gives us a spiritual body to dwell in heaven with (1 Cor.15)

That's not what the Scriptures teach, you don't have some android, avatar body waiting for you in heaven like a station wagon parked in the garage. You physical frame, your flesh and blood body, is raised on the last day.

Body (G4983 σῶμα sōma)

And if Christ be in you, the body (G4983) is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. (Rom 8:10)

But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies (G4983) by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. (Rom 8:11)

For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, (G4983) ye shall live. (Rom 8:13)

But...the believers couldn't go to heaven until "the age to come" came according to our Lord, Believers in the Bible were still living in the "this age" (old covenant age) Levirate marriage (marrying & giving in marriage) was part of the Old Covenant law, & still in place bc the O.C. still hadn't passed away for Israel, according to Hebrews (written about AD66)

That's simply not true, believers when absent from the body were present with the Lord. Saul when Samuel told him he would die said you and your sons will be with be tomorrow, Samuel was dead which means they would be dead the following day.

2) Now, I see you left out v.12 in Rom.8, so let's let the scripture flow in context to understand Paul properly.
Rom. 8:11-13, NKJV:
11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. Sonship Through the Spirit
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtorsnot to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Key word there is 'bodies' (G4983 σῶμα sōma). The deeds of the flesh are another matter, Paul there is talking about walking in carnal lust. That's what it means to walk according to the flesh.

Paul then concludes his statement (the therefore) saying believers are not debtors to the flesh. Only by walking in the Spirit do we avoid the sins of the flesh.

Right

Paul is not referring to our bodies after death in Romans 8.
He is describing how the carnal man is dead bc of sin. And in our previous life (without the Spirit) we lived in the flesh & did deeds of the flesh. And how that didn't bring life to us.

So far so good.

Paul's statements in Romans 8 agree with his 2Cor. epistle:

Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. (2 Cor. 5:16-21)

So, Paul doesn't contradict himself by saying our "mortal flesh will be "quickened" to rise in the afterlife. In 1 Cor.15, he says we take on Jesus' immortality at death, bc the Spirit is our guarantee of eternal life ( BTW- "in the age to come" - when the Old Covenant heaven & earth would officially pass away)

We don't get the self-same body at death. God gives us a spiritual body as He pleases. (1Cor.15)

Which is the part where you deny the bodily resurrection of believers. Your arguments are non sequitur at best. I Cor. 15 make it clear that to deny that Christ was raised is to deny that the dead are raised, to deny the dead are raised is to deny that Christ was raised.

Here's where we cut to the chase. Was Christ raised from the dead bodily? I really shouldn't even have to tell you what the next question is but I will. If that is the case then are the dead raised 'bodily'?

Don't bother with the spam formatting, Do you deny the bodily resurrection of Christ and the Church?

Have a nice day
Mark

SG9 · Feb 8, 2014

Bible2 said:
The time of Jacob's trouble which he will be saved out of (Jeremiah 30:7) won't be (as is sometimes taught) the entire future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, but only the final pillaging of the Jews in Jerusalem at the very end of the tribulation, right before Jesus returns and saves them (Zechariah 14:2-5). The church, including Gentile believers (Revelation 7:9,14), will be in the tribulation (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6).

Jesus will physically reign on the earth during the 1,000 years, for the 1,000 years will begin after his 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), when he will physically land on the earth and rule it from Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:4-21). And because Jesus will reign physically on the earth during the 1,000 years, so will the physically resurrected church, for the physically resurrected church will reign with Jesus during the 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6). And so in Revelation 5:10, the reference to the church reigning in the future "on the earth" includes the 1,000 years. Also, in Revelation 2:26-29, the reigning of the church physically over the nations can refer to the 1,000 years. There's no reason to exclude the 1,000 years from Revelation 5:10 or Revelation 2:26-29, just as there's no reason to exclude the earth from Revelation 20:4-6.

Also, the church will reign forever on the new earth. For the church will reign forever in New Jerusalem (Revelation 22:5, Revelation 21:10 to 22:5), which will descend from heaven to a new earth (Revelation 21:1-3, Revelation 21:10) sometime after the future millennium and subsequent events are over (Revelation 20:7 to 21:3).

*******

That's right.

The "mark of the beast" (Revelation 13:16-17, Revelation 16:2) will be a literal, physical mark which will be visible to people, so they can easily tell in every situation whether or not someone should be permitted to buy or sell (Revelation 13:17). It will be visible also because the original Greek of Revelation 13:16 shows that the mark will be placed only "on" (epi), not inside, people's right hands or foreheads. Also, it will be placed on people probably by scarification. For in Revelation 13:16 one of the definitions of the original Greek word (charagma, G5480) translated as the "mark" is "a scratch or etching" (Strong's Greek Dictionary), and scarification is the scratching or etching (i.e. the cutting) of the skin to leave a permanent mark. The reason people will be given the mark in Revelation 13:16, in the context of what had just been shown previously in Revelation 13:4,8,15, will be to serve as a visible indicator to other people that they are loyal worshippers of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) and his image (Revelation 13:4,8,15), just as some Luciferians today put a mark on themselves by scarification.

The mark will consist of only the Antichrist's name "or" some representation of the gematrial number of his name (666) (Revelation 13:17-18), meaning that the mark will be the Antichrist's name for some people and a representation of the gematrial number of his name for other people. And the mark will be placed only on the right hand (probably on the palm) "or" on the forehead (Revelation 13:16), meaning that it will be placed on the right hand of some people and on the forehead of other people.

Those who refuse to receive the Antichrist's mark won't be allowed to buy or sell anything (Revelation 13:17), and they will be executed by being beheaded if they refuse to worship the Antichrist and his image (Revelation 13:15, Revelation 20:4). Christians must be willing to suffer this fate rather than agree to receive the Antichrist's mark or worship him or his image, for those people who agree to do these things, even if they are Christians, will suffer God's wrath in fire and brimstone forever (Revelation 14:9-13), whereas those Christians who refuse to do these things, even though they will be beheaded, will subsequently be physically resurrected into immortality (along with the rest of the obedient church of all times) at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 20:4-6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-58). And even before their resurrection, at the moment of their death, their still-conscious souls will be brought into the presence of Jesus in heaven (cf. 2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23, Revelation 6:9-10, Luke 23:43,46).

In the future, when the world begins to worship the Antichrist as God (Revelation 13:8; 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36), some people could gladly be willing to have his name placed by scarification on their right palm, just as lovers in the past were sometimes known to have their loved ones' initials placed by scarification on their palm (cf. also Isaiah 49:16, Jeremiah 48:37, Leviticus 19:28, Leviticus 21:5). Other of the Antichrist's worshippers could gladly be willing to have his name placed by scarification on their forehead, thinking (mistakenly) that they are fulfilling the Christian idea of Revelation 22:4, which refers to the future point in time when Jesus will put God's name visibly on the forehead of obedient Christians (Revelation 3:12). The Antichrist's miracle-working False Prophet, who will be the one to cause everyone to be marked with the Antichrist's mark (Revelation 13:16-18), could even convince people that he (the False Prophet) is Jesus returned. (But he won't say that he is Christ, for he and the Antichrist will deny that Jesus is the Christ, and will deny that Christ is in the flesh: 1 John 2:22; 2 John 1:7.)

Instead of having the Antichrist's name engraved on their right hand or forehead, some of his worshippers will have the gematrial number of his name (666) (Revelation 13:17c-18) engraved on their right hand or forehead. But because some people could refuse to have "666" placed on their body, in order to make a mark of 666 acceptable to all people, it could be disguised to look like something else in those cases where people demand something other than "666". For example, it could be disguised in some cases to look like "777", or "111", or "WWW", or "VVV", or "|| || ||", or "FFF". For the 6th letter of the ancient Hebrew alphabet (Vav) represents the number 6, but it looks like a "7", or a "1", and it is transliterated into English as either a "W" or a "V". Also, two thin vertical lines "||" represent the number 6 on many UPC codes. And the letter "F" has a numerical value of 6 in English gematria.

In an awful coincidence (or maybe it is not just a coincidence), "FFF" also stands for an extremely powerful type of nuclear bomb: Fission-Fusion-Fission. Could this be the type of bomb which the 10 kings of the Antichrist's empire will employ to burn up the cities of the world at the end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Revelation 17:12,16,17a, Revelation 16:19, Revelation 19:2,11)?

The "WWW" which has been placed on many internet addresses, and the "|| || ||" which has been placed across many UPC codes on products (i.e. they have a "||" at the beginning, middle, and end of their UPC codes), are harbingers of when Lucifer will give the Antichrist ownership of everything on the earth (Revelation 13:2b; cf. Luke 4:7), and of the Antichrist placing his "brand" on everything, like a rancher places his "brand" on all his cattle. For both "WWW" and "|| || ||" are disguised representations of the gematrial number of the Antichrist's name: 666 (Revelation 13:17c-18). But Revelation 13:16 isn't fulfilled by some internet addresses having a "WWW", nor by some products having "|| || ||" on their UPC codes, for Revelation 13:16 refers only to when people will be given the Antichrist's mark, on either their right hand or forehead.

Those assigned to have the mark placed on their forehead (instead of on their right hand) (Revelation 13:16) could be an elite, illumined, cognoscenti class of Gnostic Luciferians who alone will have been given knowledge of the ultimate secrets of the Antichrist's Gnostic Luciferianism. The Antichrist will be both a Luciferian, a worshipper of Lucifer/Satan the dragon (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9), and a Gnostic, someone who denies that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3), and forbids marriage and the eating of meat (1 Timothy 4:1-3). The cream of his cognoscenti could be a faux 144,000, consisting of male virgins (as a counterfeit of Revelation 14:4) who have never eaten meat. If they receive on their forehead the mark of the Antichrist's name (instead of a representation of the number of his name) (Revelation 13:17), this will be as a counterfeit of YHWH's 144,000 in Revelation 14:1. But the Antichrist won't pretend that he is YHWH, just as he won't pretend that he is Christ. Instead, as a Gnostic, he will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). And his Gnostic denial that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3) will disqualify him (under his mistaken Gnostic doctrine) from being Christ.

You made some interesting points about the symbolism in letters and numbers, and in respect to these types I also see it as simple as to how one might see these things, such as in the basic number-set that we use today.

Example: how do we count numbers?

The number set is only of ten digits, and these ten are the same numbers as in the Ten commandments, as a parallel in certain cases of Bible coding or even anything around us in this world.

The basic number set is 0 to 9,

0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9

And yet we at times, and some people will count starting with "1" instead of "0"

If we examine this basic number set we see that if we ad the beginning to the ending we then have the number "10", and this is painting also a parallel image of the coming of the Son of Man in the end with the Law that he fulfills.

This is far too complicated to expound on, and it may leave much doubt and misinterpretation of what it means to us, today. Numbers originated in the beginning, and were authenticated with the days of Creation in Light of the Law which are Ten written in mankind, the human formation. (reflecting the image of seven sons and three daughters in the Cross)

If we change the Law of G-d it's as if we change also the order of the basic number set, and if we misuse these numbers by re-arranging their order they then have a different usage and meaning. This happens to the Law which does determine our spiritual anatomy that is manifest in flesh, and when spiritual changes are made in the "order" we then change our characteristics in humankind, which is an evolution process into the opposite direction and order.

I know that I lost you but please don't discount what I say for the lack of understanding these things.

A literal mark of the beast is nonsense, and man's works are this literal mark in his spiritual anatomy as a change in the order of the law written within.

Thanks

coraline · Feb 8, 2014

mark kennedy,

Who's denying the dead are raised?

Not me. I said our flesh goes to the dust forever.

1 Cor.15:
A Glorious Body

35 But someone will say, How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come? 36 Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. 37 And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grainperhaps wheat or some other grain. 38 But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind of flesh[c] of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam became a living being.[d] The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord[e] from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear[f] the image of the heavenly Man.

bibletruth469 · Feb 8, 2014

Old Timer said:
I have a question which is based upon John's gospel where he speaks of the resurrection on the last day. Is the Last Day the Day of the LORD? Would it be the thousand years mentioned in Revelation 20? Is that what John means when he writes about the resurrection on the last day? Thanks for all your help in Christ Jesus, OT

The last day spoken by John chapter 6:39-54, I believe is when the church age will close. The rapture will occur and then the time of the tribulation will start. THere are last days concerning the church and last days that concern Israel.

THe last days of the time of the church started at the beginning of the first coming of Christ and will conclude at the rapture.

The last days of Israel begins at the start of the tribulation and ends with the millennial kingdom

Resurrections will happen at different times. There was a resurrection of the Jerusalem saints after the resurrection of Christ. THere will be a resurrection of the dead and alive at the time of the rapture. A resurrection will occur at the end of the millennium kingdom.. This is when the Old Testament saints will be resurrected. Also the great white throne judgement will occur which is the judgement and resurrection of the wicked.

I believe that the 1000 years spoken of in revelation 20 is a literal time period.

The Last Day

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