The keys

Xeno.of.athens · May 27, 2023

prodromos said:
From the consensus of the Church Fathers.

Where do you see anything different?

I haven't see any consensus of the Church Fathers that matches what you said.

ralliann · May 27, 2023

Xeno.of.athens said:
Receiving the Holy Spirit, forgiving sins, these are gifts common to the bishops and those to whom they delegate the authority. The keys is a somewhat different matter.

I agree. The priestly office.

RileyG · May 27, 2023

prodromos said:
From the consensus of the Church Fathers.

Where do you see anything different?

Can you elaborate please?

prodromos · May 28, 2023

RileyG said:
Can you elaborate please?

Not readily. Its the distillation of my reading over the last 20 years. I'm not a writer, so I haven't kept notes. I'm a voracious reader but I couldn't write an essay to save my life.

prodromos · May 28, 2023

Xeno.of.athens said:
I haven't see any consensus of the Church Fathers that matches what you said.

When do you believe Peter receives the promised keys.

Xeno.of.athens · May 28, 2023

prodromos said:
When do you believe Peter receives the promised keys.

I do not know, I do know that the Lord, Jesus Christ, promised them to saint Peter individually. He did not promise them to any others.

prodromos · May 28, 2023

Xeno.of.athens said:
I do not know, I do know that the Lord, Jesus Christ, promised them to saint Peter individually. He did not promise them to any others.

The Church Fathers identify the keys with binding and loosing. This authority was given to all the Apostles.

Xeno.of.athens · May 28, 2023

prodromos said:
The Church Fathers identify the keys with binding and loosing. This authority was given to all the Apostles.

One uses hands to bind and unbind, perhaps a key is used to lock chains that could bind and to unlock chains that could bind. The keys however are more associated with doors than with chains or ropes or other instruments used for binding and unbinding.

Xeno.of.athens · May 28, 2023

This is worth reading in my opinion.

And I will give to thee the keys, &c.

This is another metaphor, expressing the supreme power and prerogative of the prince of the apostles. The keys of a city, or of its gates, are presented or given to the person that hath the chief power. We also own a power of the keys, given to the other apostles, but with a subordination to St. Peter and to his successor, as head of the Catholic Church.

--- And whatsoever thou shalt bind, &c.

All the apostles, and their successors, partake also of this power of binding and loosing, but with a due subordination to one head invested with the supreme power. (Witham)

--- Loose on earth.

The loosing the bands of temporal punishments due to sins, is called an indulgence: the power of which is here granted. (Challoner)

--- Although Peter and his successors are mortal, they are nevertheless endowed with heavenly power, says St. John Chrysostom nor is the sentence of life and death passed by Peter to be attempted to be reversed, but what he declares is to be considered a divine answer from heaven, and what he decrees, a decree of God himself. He that heareth you, heareth me, &c.

The power of binding is exercised, 1st. by refusing to absolve; 2d. by enjoining penance for sins forgiven; 3d. by excommunication, suspension or interdict; 4th. by making rules and laws for the government of the Church; 5th. by determining what is of faith by the judgments and definitions of the Church. (Tirinus)

--- The terms binding and loosing, are equivalent to opening and shutting, because formerly the Jews opened the fastenings of their doors by untying it, and they shut or secured their doors by tying or binding it. (Bible de Vence)

--- Dr. Whitby, a learned Protestant divine, thus expounds this and the preceding verse: "As a suitable return to thy confession, I say also to thee, that thou art by name Peter, i.e. a rock; and upon thee, who art this rock, I will build my making laws to govern my Church." (Tom. i, p. 143.)

Dr. Hammond, another Protestant divine, explains it in the same manner. And p. 92, he says: " What is here meant by the keys, is best understand by Isa_22:22, where they signified ruling the whole family or house of the king: and this being by Christ accommodated to the Church, denotes the power of governing it."

Strong in Him · May 28, 2023

So how did Peter have the keys to the Kingdom?
Where do we read that he let people in, or kept them out? I am certain he would not have wanted to prevent people from knowing Jesus and being saved.

ViaCrucis · May 28, 2023

Xeno.of.athens said:
I do not know, I do know that the Lord, Jesus Christ, promised them to saint Peter individually. He did not promise them to any others.

We could look to see how the fathers understood it, that would if nothing else give us an inkling to how those closest to the Apostles themselves understood it.

It's why they always combine Matthew 16:19 and John 20:23 together, and understand in Peter not the sole receiver of the Keys, but that in Peter is represented the whole of the Apostles. Even as the Lord says to Peter, "feed My sheep" it is not as though Peter alone is Christ's under-shepherd, but to all the Apostles was given the task of shepherding the flock of Christ. And from the Apostles the bishops and presbyters were tasked with continuing that apostolic work. It's why Paul can give the instruction he does to Timothy, to preach the word in and out of season and to carry on the work of an evangelist.

I simply don't see how we can simply dismiss the patristic witness on this matter.

A website I've found very useful is Church Fathers Scripture Index

You can put a Scripture reference and search it, and see where many of the ancient fathers reference, allude, or directly quote that passage of Scripture. And you can click the links which take you to the CCEL website to get the full context of the patristic source. I often look at the reference and then try and find it on the New Advent website's collection of patristic writings. The quotes from St. Cyprian and St. Augustine I quoted above were just two examples.

It is an amazing resource for cross-referencing Scripture with the writings of the ancient fathers.

What I've yet to see in any of the ancient fathers is that Peter alone received the Keys exclusively. They consistently understood the Keys to be the possession of the entire Church because Christ gave the Keys to all the Apostles.

I don't want to sound dismissive, but it's really hard to take apologetics for Petrine primacy seriously when, at every bend, at every corner, in the sum total of the faithful witness of the ancient Church catholic we not only don't see a witness for Petrine primacy, but we actually see witness against such an idea. Christ did not institute a papacy, but a Church. He instituted a pastoral fraternity to safeguard the word He gave and to deliver all that He had said and did, and spoken through the Holy Spirit also, to be passed on from generation to generation--that we might all earnestly contend for the faith once and for all delivered. This is He who said the rulers of the Gentiles lord over others, "but it shall not be this way with you".

-CryptoLutheran

Xeno.of.athens · May 28, 2023

Strong in Him said:
So how did Peter have the keys to the Kingdom?

Jesus gave them to him.

Strong in Him · May 28, 2023

Xeno.of.athens said:
Jesus gave them to him.

Yes, but what did that mean?
In what way did Peter let people into the kingdom, or otherwise? All the Apostles - and every follower of Christ since - has preached the Gospel, showed God's love and so on. And every unbeliever who has taken Jesus at his word has been let into the kingdom; they are now living their lives acknowledging Jesus as king.
What did Peter do that was different?

prodromos · May 28, 2023

Xeno.of.athens said:
One uses hands to bind and unbind, perhaps a key is used to lock chains that could bind and to unlock chains that could bind. The keys however are more associated with doors than with chains or ropes or other instruments used for binding and unbinding.

Xeno.of.athens said:
The terms binding and loosing, are equivalent to opening and shutting, because formerly the Jews opened the fastenings of their doors by untying it, and they shut or secured their doors by tying or binding it. (Bible de Vence)

And thus saying he contradicted himself.

prodromos · May 28, 2023

Xeno.of.athens said:
Jesus gave them to him.

Yet you have no idea when such a supposedly unique and far reaching event took place.

Xeno.of.athens · May 28, 2023

Strong in Him said:
Yes, but what did that mean?
In what way did Peter let people into the kingdom, or otherwise? All the Apostles - and every follower of Christ since - has preached the Gospel, showed God's love and so on. And every unbeliever who has taken Jesus at his word has been let into the kingdom; they are now living their lives acknowledging Jesus as king.
What did Peter do that was different?

Is it not enough for you to know that Jesus gave the keys to saint Peter? Is his word insufficient to convince you that saint Peter was given the keys of the kingdom?

Xeno.of.athens · May 28, 2023

prodromos said:
Yet you have no idea when such a supposedly unique and far reaching event took place.

I know where and when it was promised, need I also know when and where the promise is fulfilled in order to believe the promise is true?

prodromos · May 28, 2023

Xeno.of.athens said:
I know where and when it was promised, need I also know when and where the promise is fulfilled in order to believe the promise is true?

We see all of Christ's promises to His disciples fulfilled in the Scriptures. Why should this one be any different?

Xeno.of.athens · May 28, 2023

prodromos said:
We see all of Christ's promises to His disciples fulfilled in the Scriptures. Why should this one be any different?

But we don't see that. Who has seen his or her own resurrection from the dead? Who knows when and where that will happen? No, good sir, we do not see the when and where of fulfilment for all God's promises in scripture, we must wait with patience to see some fulfilled.

ViaCrucis · May 28, 2023

Xeno.of.athens said:
But we don't see that. Who has seen his or her own resurrection from the dead? Who knows when and where that will happen? No, good sir, we do not see the when and where of fulfilment for all God's promises in scripture, we must wait with patience to see some fulfilled.

So it's entirely possible that Peter hasn't even received the keys yet?

-CryptoLutheran

The keys

I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.

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I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.

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I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.

I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.

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I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.

Great is thy faithfulness

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I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.

I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.

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I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.

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