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The Kalam Cosmological Argument

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1. Whatever begins to exist has a cause.

2. The universe began to exist.

3. Therefore, the universe has a cause.

Whatever it is that is the cause of the universe will recover several principal attributes of God, so the the cause takes on the character of a personal Creator of the Universe.


Edit: Here is a link to a short youtube video that explains the argument if anyone needs it.


Another edit: In order to help keep this thread on track, I just wanted to note that the argument is not restricted to the God of Abraham...just a God in general. For the argument, God can be defined as a being that which none greater can be imagined. Not specifically the God of the Bible.
 
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1. Whatever begins to exist has a cause.

2. The universe befan to exist.

3. Therefore, the universe has a cause.

Whatever it is that is the cause of the universe will recover several principal attributes of God, so the the cause takes on the character of a personal Creator of the Universe.

The "cause" had to have always existed
 
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toLiJC

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1. Whatever begins to exist has a cause.

2. The universe began to exist.

3. Therefore, the universe has a cause.

Whatever it is that is the cause of the universe will recover several principal attributes of God, so the the cause takes on the character of a personal Creator of the Universe.

yes, there is an inevitable beginning and end even for God (Revelation 21:6)

Blessings
 
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yes, there is an inevitable beginning and end even for God (Revelation 21:6)

Blessings
However, whats the beginning and end of eternity? That is the amazing thing that makes God so awesome! Only He would know.
 
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doubtingmerle

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1. Whatever begins to exist has a cause.

2. The universe began to exist.

3. Therefore, the universe has a cause.

Whatever it is that is the cause of the universe will recover several principal attributes of God, so the the cause takes on the character of a personal Creator of the Universe.


Edit: Here is a link to a short youtube video that explains the argument if anyone needs it.

We know the cause of the universe--the Big Bang.

And the cause of the Big Bang? Nobody knows.

So if nobody knows the cause of the Big Bang, how can you be certain that the cause takes on the character of God?
 
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PapaZoom

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We know the cause of the universe--the Big Bang.

And the cause of the Big Bang? Nobody knows.

So if nobody knows the cause of the Big Bang, how can you be certain that the cause takes on the character of God?

Inference to the best explanation. What do you think caused the BB?
 
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We know the cause of the universe--the Big Bang.

And the cause of the Big Bang? Nobody knows.

So if nobody knows the cause of the Big Bang, how can you be certain that the cause takes on the character of God?
Because whatever caused it must be an eternal entity with extreme power who exists outside space and time ect... All are priciples that point to God.
 
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doubtingmerle

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Inference to the best explanation. What do you think caused the BB?
I answered this already: nobody knows.

At the earliest stages of the Big Bang we see inflation and quantum effects. I suspect that this it the fundamental aspect of reality, that there is a constantly inflating background reality with quantum fluctuations that occasionally create universes such as our own.

But nobody really knows.
 
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doubtingmerle

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Because whatever caused it must be an eternal entity with extreme power who exists outside space and time ect... All are priciples that point to God.
I don't understand why it has to be eternal. "Eternal" hardly even has a meaning when we step outside the space-time that we know as our universe.

Extreme power? It appears that the net energy of the universe might actually be zero, with all of the positive mass and energy we know balanced out by the negative energy of objects being in a contracted state from the state they would be if spread out to infinity. Zero is not extreme.

But you make a huge jump when you go from "eternal outside space-time" to "a personal God". Perhaps the cause is not a personal God, but something else that is eternal outside space-time. Or perhaps the cause is not even eternal.
 
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Athée

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1. Whatever begins to exist has a cause.

2. The universe began to exist.

3. Therefore, the universe has a cause.

Whatever it is that is the cause of the universe will recover several principal attributes of God, so the the cause takes on the character of a personal Creator of the Universe.


Edit: Here is a link to a short youtube video that explains the argument if anyone needs it.


Objection to premise 1:

Where do we get this phrase "everything that begins to exist" from? It suggests that the cosmos (level up from universe ) can be divided into two categories. Things which begin to exist, that are contingent and things that do not begin to exist. Quick question. How did we determine this to be the case? Is it possible for there to be anything other than your God in the category of things that exist but which did not begin to exist?
There is more to this objection but it can wait until we have answered these first questions.

Thanks for the topic, always a good one :)
 
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Objection to premise 1:

Where do we get this phrase "everything that begins to exist" from? It suggests that the cosmos (level up from universe ) can be divided into two categories. Things which begin to exist, that are contingent and things that do not begin to exist. Quick question. How did we determine this to be the case? Is it possible for there to be anything other than your God in the category of things that exist but which did not begin to exist?
There is more to this objection but it can wait until we have answered these first questions.

Thanks for the topic, always a good one :)
Well, the argument never specifically says that it must be God. Rather is says that whatever caused the universe, the principles that describe it just so happens to be the same principles that describe God. So is it unreasonable to suggest that God could be a possibility?
 
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Athée

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Well, the argument never specifically says that it must be God. Rather is says that whatever caused the universe, the principles that describe it just so happens to be the same principles that describe God. So is it unreasonable to suggest that God could be a possibility?
Actually the argument doesn't assert anything about the cause, at best it implies them but we are getting ahead of ourselves :) The first questuon i had was how have we established these two categories of things that exist and have a cause vs. Things that exist and don't have a cause? There could be a begging the question problem going on in premise 1 as well which is why I asked if it is possible for anything other than your God to be a member of the set of existing non contingent things and I don't see an answer to that question either. Finally, is it reasonable to propose a god as a possible cause of the universe... I would say no because we don't have evidence that a god exists. Or put another way, would it be reasonable to propose universe creating pixies as the possible cause for the universe? Why or why not?
 
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doubtingmerle

I'll think about it.
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So is it unreasonable to suggest that God could be a possibility?
No, it is not unreasonable to suggest the hypothesis that God created the universe.

But it is unreasonable to say we can deduce that the cause of the universe takes on the character of a personal God.
 
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I apologize for the late response. These past few days have been rather busy for me.

The first questuon i had was how have we established these two categories of things that exist and have a cause vs. Things that exist and don't have a cause?
Something is “necessary” if it could not possibly have failed to exist. The laws of mathematics are often thought to be necessary. It is plausible to say that mathematical truths such as two and two making four hold irrespective of the way that the world is. Even if the world were radically different, it seems, two and two would still make four. God, too, is often thought to be a necessary being, i.e. a being that logically could not have failed to exist.
Something is “contingent” if it is not necessary, i.e. if it could have failed to exist. Most things seem to exist contingently. All of the human artefacts around us might not have existed; for each one of them, whoever made it might have decided not to do so. Their existence, therefore, is contingent. You and I, too, might not have existed; our respective parents might never have met, or might have decided not to have children, or might have decided to have children at a different time. Our existence, therefore, is contingent. Even the world around us seems to be contingent; the universe might have developed in such a way that none of the observable stars and planets existed at all.
The argument from contingency rests on the claim that the universe, as a whole, is contingent. It is not only the case, the argument suggests, that each of the things around is us contingent; it is also the case that the whole, all of those things taken together, is contingent. It might have been the case that nothing existed at all. The state of affairs in which nothing existed at all is a logically possible state of affairs, even though it is not the actual state of affairs.
It is this that the argument from contingency takes to be significant. It is because it is thought that the universe exists contingently that its existence is thought to require explanation. If the universe might not have existed, then why does it exist? Proponents of the cosmological argument suggest that questions like this always have answers. The existence of things that are necessary does not require explanation; their non-existence is impossible. The existence of anything contingent, however, does require explanation. They might not have existed, and so there must be some reason that they do so.

if it is possible for anything other than your God to be a member of the set of existing non contingent things

Yes, it is possible. However, nothing in modern science has been able to have any explanation that does not violate the Laws of Thermodynamics or the Laws of Conservation of Mass and Energy.

Finally, is it reasonable to propose a god as a possible cause of the universe... I would say no because we don't have evidence that a god exists. Why or why not?


I would disagree. I can't tell you how many times people have made the claim that "we dont have evidence that a god exists" when in fact the evidence is everywhere. I would argue that "evidence" is subjective based one one's level of skepticism. Another issue is the question of what would "evidence for God" look like? What would you consider to be evidence for the existance of God.


Actually the argument doesn't assert anything about the cause, at best it implies them but we are getting ahead of ourselves :) The first questuon i had was how have we established these two categories of things that exist and have a cause vs. Things that exist and don't have a cause? There could be a begging the question problem going on in premise 1 as well which is why I asked if it is possible for anything other than your God to be a member of the set of existing non contingent things and I don't see an answer to that question either. Finally, is it reasonable to propose a god as a possible cause of the universe... I would say no because we don't have evidence that a god exists. Or put another way, would it be reasonable to propose universe creating pixies as the possible cause for the universe? Why or why not?
 
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No, it is not unreasonable to suggest the hypothesis that God created the universe.

But it is unreasonable to say we can deduce that the cause of the universe takes on the character of a personal God.
Why would it be unreasonable that a god (any god) could be a reasonable cause?
 
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Athée

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No worries about the replies. I am a specialist teacher getting ready for a new year and I expect my responses will be slow as well :)
Something is “necessary” if it could not possibly have failed to exist. The laws of mathematics are often thought to be necessary. It is plausible to say that mathematical truths such as two and two making four hold irrespective of the way that the world is. Even if the world were radically different, it seems, two and two would still make four. God, too, is often thought to be a necessary being, i.e. a being that logically could not have failed to exist.
Something is “contingent” if it is not necessary, i.e. if it could have failed to exist.
Good explanation of necessary and contingent. That said I don't think this is the same thing as exists and had a cause and exists and has no cause. Specifically I don't think necessary is synonymous with exists and has no cause. Imagine we have a necessary machine that produces X''s . Given the existence of the necessary machine the x''s are necessary as well but do have a cause. As such we can't conclude that all necessary things are non contingent.
The argument from contingency rests on the claim that the universe, as a whole, is contingent
This is a big if. How are we able to conclude that the universe is in fact contingent?
Yes, it is possible. However, nothing in modern science has been able to have any explanation that does not violate the Laws of Thermodynamics or the Laws of Conservation of Mass and Energy.
So your God is the only member of the set, exists but is without cause?
I would disagree. I can't tell you how many times people have made the claim that "we dont have evidence that a god exists" when in fact the evidence is everywhere. I would argue that "evidence" is subjective based one one's level of skepticism.
Great point. What we have is some level of evidence for the proposition that god exists. What we don't have is very compelling evidence :)
Another issue is the question of what would "evidence for God" look like? What would you consider to be evidence for the existance of God.
Good question but I am going to defer to another time uess you think it is directly relevant to the thread (I'm trying to practice staying on topic in these fora!)
 
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