The John 1 deduction vs. Hebrews 2

[cubinity]

The John 1 deduction:

The Word was God. - John 1:1
The Word became flesh - John 1:14
Therefore, God became flesh.
Jesus is the Word.
Therefore, Jesus is God.


Hebrews 2

"But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. In bringing many sons and daughters to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through what he suffered... For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people" (Heb. 2:9-10,17).


The problem is that if Jesus is God, how do we interpret verses that distinguish between Jesus and God, like those in Hebrews?

 

[Phileoeklogos]

It seems that the NT demands a trinitarian understanding, going back to your John 1 deduction,

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

 

[Hentenza]

The John 1 deduction:

The Word was God. - John 1:1
The Word became flesh - John 1:14
Therefore, God became flesh.
Jesus is the Word.
Therefore, Jesus is God.


Hebrews 2

"But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. In bringing many sons and daughters to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through what he suffered... For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people" (Heb. 2:9-10,17).


The problem is that if Jesus is God, how do we interpret verses that distinguish between Jesus and God, like those in Hebrews?

I prefer the NASB translation and I think it makes it a bit clearer.

9But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone. 10For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings.

17Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.



Jesus and the Father are both of the same essence but a different person. God took on human form and cooperated with said form. He humbled Himself. Verse 9 uses a word that is key in understanding these passages. The word ἠλαττωμένον translated here as "made for a little while lower" is unrelated to being created but means to lessen, to decrease in status or rank.



John tells us that Jesus was with God and is God. Hebrews tells us that Jesus was decreased in status or rank (made lower than the angels (human), only deity is above angels) so that He might taste death for everyone. Jesus, while in human form, deferred to things pertaining to God (the Father) so that He could make propitiation (make reconciliation) for the sins of the people.

 

[cubinity]

only deity is above angels

Can you show me where this is in the Bible?

 

[cubinity]

It seems that the NT demands a trinitarian understanding, going back to your John 1 deduction,

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

I think I understand what you're saying.

A trinitarian understanding accepts that Jesus is God, but is a different person than the Father.

I get that. However, the verse doesn't read, "the Word was with the Father." It reads, where you underlined, "the Word was with God."

This verse is not distinguishing between Jesus and the Father, but is both identifying Jesus as distinct from God and identifying him as God simultaneously. This seems, as does the rest of the NT, contradictory on this issue.

I'm totally glad all of this kind of stuff is clear to you, but I'm honestly having a hard time figuring it out. Perhaps there is some more insight you might offer.

Anyway, thanks for the helpful comment. I appreciate it. God bless.

 

[cubinity]

9...so that by the grace of God He might...

10For it was fitting for Him...to perfect the author of their salvation...

Even the NAS does not interpret out the distinctions between Jesus and God communicated in Hebrews 2. See the segments of verses 9 and 10 above. God and Jesus are still two separate subjects of these statements.

Help me out with that, please.

 

[Hentenza]

Can you show me where this is in the Bible?

Only the Truine God and the angels where present at creation. There are no other beings spoken of in scripture that are higher than angels but lower than God.

Merry Christmas brother.

 

[cubinity]

Only the Truine God and the angels where present at creation. There are no other beings spoken of in scripture that are higher than angels but lower than God.

Merry Christmas brother.

Except, maybe, Jesus, in Hebrews.

Thank you for the hug. Merry Christmas to you, too.

 

[Hentenza]

Even the NAS does not interpret out the distinctions between Jesus and God communicated in Hebrews 2. See the segments of verses 9 and 10 above. God and Jesus are still two separate subjects of these statements.

Help me out with that, please.

They are two separate persons not separate subjects. Jesus died by and for the grace of God for the propitiation of sin. Only God can satisfy God's justice.

 

[Hentenza]

Except, maybe, Jesus, in Hebrews.

How so?

 

[cubinity]

They are two separate persons not separate subjects. Jesus died by and for the grace of God for the propitiation of sin. Only God can satisfy God's justice.

I believe that (said so you know you're not arguing with a strict unitarian, or anything) two separate persons are being discussed.

The problem is that those two separate persons are identified as Jesus and God, not Jesus and the Father, or Jesus and the Spirit.

This seems to tell me that the author believed Jesus was a separate person, distinct somehow from God.

Paul does the same thing, constantly. It has always interested, confused and troubled me.

I appreciate that you are trying to explain it to me. Thanks.

 

[cubinity]

Except, maybe, Jesus, in Hebrews.

How so?

You make the assumption that Jesus is God to the author of Hebrews because you don't see the Bible identifying anything but deity above angels, and you see that Hebrews argues the point that Jesus is above the angels.

However, while I agree that Hebrews argues that Jesus is above the angels, I don't see any indication in the text that the reader is meant to conclude from this that Jesus is therefore God.

So, why isn't it possible that this is the Bible's introduction of the idea that Jesus is the non-diety that is above the angels?

 

[papaJP]

The problem is that if Jesus is God, how do we interpret verses that distinguish between Jesus and God, like those in Hebrews?
Jesus was God in the fleshly personification. However He gave up His diety while in the flesh to show us that the flesh filled with the Holy Spirit of God can do God's work as Jesus demonstrated. We can only do what the Father (Godly) personification wills. If you have a problem understanding that God is God as Creator/Father, Jesus the Son our savior and the Christ, and the Holy Spirit of God do not be alarmed. Many have never been able to get past the worldly reasoning and thinking to understand. This can only be understood when you let God through the filling of the Holy Spirit teach you and fill you with Godly knowledge.
Remember God is outside of time and beyond our knowledge as man to understand in the flesh. Only Spiritually can you understand what God wants you to know and understand. He will give you only what you are ready to believe and walk in.

 

[cubinity]

The problem is that if Jesus is God, how do we interpret verses that distinguish between Jesus and God, like those in Hebrews?
Jesus was God in the fleshly personification. However He gave up His diety while in the flesh to show us that the flesh filled with the Holy Spirit of God can do God's work as Jesus demonstrated. We can only do what the Father (Godly) personification wills. If you have a problem understanding that God is God as Creator/Father, Jesus the Son our savior and the Christ, and the Holy Spirit of God do not be alarmed. Many have never been able to get past the worldly reasoning and thinking to understand. This can only be understood when you let God through the filling of the Holy Spirit teach you and fill you with Godly knowledge.
Remember God is outside of time and beyond our knowledge as man to understand in the flesh. Only Spiritually can you understand what God wants you to know and understand. He will give you only what you are ready to believe and walk in.

This is a great plug for Trinitarianism, which I totally respect.

However, I started this thread in the Scriptures forum because I want to discuss how the authors dealt with this, not how the Holy Spirit can teach you and I to think about it.

The authors, when distinguishing between Jesus and God weren't always dealing with human-Jesus, but also deal with eternal-Jesus, who is accepted as God, as a distinct person from God.

But, I do thank you for your response.

 

[Phileoeklogos]

I think I understand what you're saying.

A trinitarian understanding accepts that Jesus is God, but is a different person than the Father.

I get that. However, the verse doesn't read, "the Word was with the Father." It reads, where you underlined, "the Word was with God."

This verse is not distinguishing between Jesus and the Father, but is both identifying Jesus as distinct from God and identifying him as God simultaneously. This seems, as does the rest of the NT, contradictory on this issue.

I'm totally glad all of this kind of stuff is clear to you, but I'm honestly having a hard time figuring it out. Perhaps there is some more insight you might offer.

Anyway, thanks for the helpful comment. I appreciate it. God bless.

The interpretive lens for Hebrews 2, is Hebrews 1, it makes a clear distinction between God the Father and God the Son and establishes the deity of the Son.

As for John1:1, John does hit us with a bombshell right off the bat, if we stop at 1:1 we see a distinction between the persons but don't get clarification of the relationship until about verse 14 thru the rest of John.

A good book you might want to pick up is "The Forgotten Trinity" by James R. White.