The issues with Sola Scriptura

Albion said:

Paul didn't mention any particular traditions in the verse you cited, and all the doctrines on my short list originated much after the start of the Christian era.

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Two of the three you mentioned were originated by Christ in scripture. You don't know when the Assumption originated, only when it was formally declared. Tradition tells us it originated at Mary's death and was witnessed by John.

Thursday said:

Two of the three you mentioned were originated by Christ in scripture. .

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So...it's Scripture that counts after all.

Welcome to the club, as they say.

Thursday said:

You don't know when the Assumption originated, only when it was formally declared.

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Wrong. We know that the legend originated with the alleged discovery of her grave being found empty--but there are a number of different and competing alleged gravesites for the Virgin. That's what you get with traditions/legends.

The idea of John having witnessed it of course was "window dressing" added in order to give the idea some additional credibility.

Thursday said:

2)The Church doesn't invent new dogmas.

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The Church doesn't invent...

Did Peter and Paul use the Rosary as part of their gospel tradition? Or did its use originate from the traditions of earlier Eastern Religions?

According to history, it did not originate with Peter. It came at a later date.

According to some Catholic traditions, the Rosary was given to Saint Dominic in a vision of the Blessed Virgin Mary and it was then promoted by Alanus de Rupe.

I suppose tradition is tradition -- whether it comes from the Apostles or from Eastern Sages.

"Holy Mary, Mother of God... Holy Mary, Mother of God... Holy Mary, Mother of God... Holy Mary, Mother of God..."

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http://lifefromgod.com/

Graham Dull said:

The Church doesn't invent...

Did Peter and Paul use the Rosary as part of their gospel tradition? Or did its use originate from the traditions of earlier Eastern Religions?

According to history, it did not originate with Peter. It came at a later date.

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It so happens I've recently listened to an excellent audio by Norman Geisler on this subject. It's a classroom setting and he's teaching some seminary students. From it I got a timetable of doctrines/traditions:

--Prayers to Mary, saints and angels began in AD 600
--Veneration of relics, AD 1786
--Canonization of dead people as saints, 995
--Mandatory mass attendance, 1000
--The rosary beads prayer, 1090 (invented by Peter the Hermit--I need to look up who he was)
--Indulgences, 1190
--Confession to priests, instituted by Pope Innocent III in 1215
--The "Seven Sacraments," 1439
And most of all...
--Tradition declared equally authoritative with Scripture, 1545 by the Council of Trent.

About that last one--it's strange to me that they would do so in light of Matthew 15 and Mark 7, where Christ reprimands the Pharisees for this very thing, adding traditions. But I've read that Trent was called in response to the Reformation and all its emphasis on "Bible only." That would explain it (as well as all of Trent's anathemas!).

The audio is even on a Catholic website, biblicalcatholic.com:

http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/apologetics/audio.htm

Hope this helps.

Graham Dull said:

The Church doesn't invent...

Did Peter and Paul use the Rosary as part of their gospel tradition? Or did its use originate from the traditions of earlier Eastern Religions?

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Possibly the latter, but using a rosary is not a doctrine, so it's not part of a discussion about Holy Tradition vs Scripture anyway.

Albion said:

using a rosary is not a doctrine

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Not a Doctrine

Doctrine is synonymous with teaching, belief, or creed.

The teachings of the first century church were identical to doctrines, even if they were not called doctrines.

Anglicans do accept the Rosary. Albion, do you yourself pray the Rosary?

Life from God .com
http://lifefromgod.com/

Graham Dull said:

Not a Doctrine

Doctrine is synonymous with teaching, belief, or creed.

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The rosary is not a teaching, belief, or creed.

Graham Dull said:

Anglicans do accept the Rosary.

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A few of them choose to do that, but it's not usual among Anglicans. And even among those that do, the customary practice is to use different prayers from the ones appointed for Catholics to pray.

Albion, do you yourself pray the Rosary?

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No.

Albion said:

The rosary is not a teaching, belief, or creed.

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True.

Rosary beads originate from the prayer traditions of Eastern Religions. Praying the rosary is an ancient custom, it's a tradition.

Albion said:

Paul didn't mention any particular traditions in the verse you cited, and all the doctrines on my short list originated much after the start of the Christian era.

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Isn't it fun though, to let them use Sola Scriptura to try and validate their straw dogs, deceptions, evasions, and misinformation.

Graham Dull said:

True.

Rosary beads originate from the prayer traditions of Eastern Religions. Praying the rosary is an ancient custom, it's a tradition.

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Yes it's an old custom. It's not a doctrine defined by "Sacred Tradition" AKA "Holy Tradition." In fact, it's not even a tradition in a non-religious sense of the word, although the practice of PRAYING the rosary could be described that way.

Albion said:

In fact, it's not even a tradition in a non-religious sense of the word

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What is a Tradition?

Tradition is defined as "The transmission of customs or beliefs from generation to generation, or the fact of being passed on in this way."

When a certain 'way of doing things' is passed on from parent to child, to grandchild, etc, without any substantial change, it then becomes that family's tradition. It becomes their traditional way of doing things.

Therefore, any customary behavior repeated by a given group over eons certainly qualifies as a tradition.

WINTER SOLSTICE -- 4TH WEEK OF DECEMBER
Recent archaeological digs at 'Stonehenge' have revealed the importance of a celebration by stone-age people at the time of the winter solstice. This winter solstice celebration has recently been determined by identifying and mapping the exact direction of the processional paths which pilgrims took at the annual festival. The final leg of the processional path rose up from the Avon River and took pilgrims over several low ridges to glimpse and approach Stonehenge with the afternoon sun directly behind the Henge. They looked directly into the sun as they made their approach. This was not by accident, it was planned. To approach Stonehenge in this fashion with its huge stone monuments, would have been a truly impressive experience.

ARTIFACTS
Stone-age people came to the festival from all over England, as well as far away as Scotland. Archaeologists have determined this by the examination of 'pigs' teeth which are by far the most abundant artifact found at the site. Testing of the teeth can reveal in which district each of the pigs were raised, and thus it is now known that the pilgrims brought their feasting pig with them from home as they made their pilgrimage on this important occasion.

LOST TRADITION
There is no longer a tradition of a pilgrimage along the processional way to Stonehenge at the time of the winter solstice. It is no longer practiced. It is lost.

CONTINUING TRADITION
I was raised in a home where we had an annual tradition of celebrating Christmas with what we called the traditional 'Christmas Ham.' My mother now lives on her own, and is to have her 95th birthday in seven weeks time. She still buys a huge ham at Christmas, every Christmas, absolutely every Christmas. It is her tradition. She has always done it, and always will.

4TH WEEK OF DECEMBER
In my youth, little did I realize that our family tradition was celebrated by people in the stone-age. The tradition was established long before the birth of Christ. Yet even now, at about the time of the winter solstice, we still feast on Christmas Ham. What a long-standing tradition.

As with a lot of traditions, we often don't recognize when they started, or why we do them -- they're just traditions.

Life from God .com
http://lifefromgod.com/

Graham Dull said:

The Church doesn't invent...

Did Peter and Paul use the Rosary as part of their gospel tradition? Or did its use originate from the traditions of earlier Eastern Religions?

According to history, it did not originate with Peter. It came at a later date.

According to some Catholic traditions, the Rosary was given to Saint Dominic in a vision of the Blessed Virgin Mary and it was then promoted by Alanus de Rupe.

I suppose tradition is tradition -- whether it comes from the Apostles or from Eastern Sages.

"Holy Mary, Mother of God... Holy Mary, Mother of God... Holy Mary, Mother of God... Holy Mary, Mother of God..."

Life from God .com
http://lifefromgod.com/

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The Rosary is not a dogma. It is a prayer.

Thursday said:

The Rosary is not a dogma. It is a prayer.

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DOGMA
The Rosary is a prayer. The words of the prayer contain dogma. "Holy Mary, Mother of God..."

The Roman Catholic Church recognizes four dogmas in respect to Mary.

Plus it recognizes Mary's role as Co-Redemptrix and Mediatrix, which relate to Mary's role in the redemption of mankind, and mediator for mankind.

There is no evidence that the Apostle Peter (in the first century) went around fingering rosary beads and reciting words either to Mary or about Mary. There is also no evidence that Peter referred to Mary as Co-Redemptrix or Mediatrix.

Peter certainly had plenty of opportunities to exalt Mary, for he preached at Pentecost, and wrote the epistles known as 1 Peter and 2 Peter.

A LOT WORDS
To recite "Holy Mary, Mother of God..." and the complete rosary consumes a lot of words.

Rather than reciting these words, I believe it is much more likely that Peter ministered by sharing with others words which Jesus spoke.

Matthew 23:14
"Woe to you… hypocrites… for a pretense you make long prayers.”

Matthew 6:7
“When praying, do not use vain repetitions like the pagans, for they think that in their many words they will be heard.”

Repeating long prayers may make a person appear devout. And it can seem sweet to talk about Mary’s role in redemption and mediation. But were these things really the focus of the early church?

The Apostles certainly didn’t make a fuss over them.

Graham Dull said:

.
DOGMA
The Rosary is a prayer. The words of the prayer contain dogma. "Holy Mary, Mother of God..."

The Roman Catholic Church recognizes four dogmas in respect to Mary.

Plus it recognizes Mary's role as Co-Redemptrix and Mediatrix, which relate to Mary's role in the redemption of mankind, and mediator for mankind.

There is no evidence that the Apostle Peter (in the first century) went around fingering rosary beads and reciting words either to Mary or about Mary. There is also no evidence that Peter referred to Mary as Co-Redemptrix or Mediatrix.

Peter certainly had plenty of opportunities to exalt Mary, for he preached at Pentecost, and wrote the epistles known as 1 Peter and 2 Peter.

A LOT WORDS
To recite "Holy Mary, Mother of God..." and the complete rosary consumes a lot of words.

Rather than reciting these words, I believe it is much more likely that Peter ministered by sharing with others words which Jesus spoke.

Matthew 23:14
"Woe to you… hypocrites… for a pretense you make long prayers.”

Matthew 6:7
“When praying, do not use vain repetitions like the pagans, for they think that in their many words they will be heard.”

Repeating long prayers may make a person appear devout. And it can seem sweet to talk about Mary’s role in redemption and mediation. But were these things really the focus of the early church?

The Apostles certainly didn’t make a fuss over them.

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The Rosary is not dogma, it is a biblical prayer.

Jesus told us to be persistent and repetitious in our prayers and Paul told us to pray without ceasing.

Sincere repetition is much different than vain repetition, which is designed for self aggrandizement.

Luke 1:28
And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

Thursday said:

The Rosary is not dogma, it is a biblical prayer.

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Most of it is. The second part of the Hail Mary was added in recent history and is not from the Bible.

Albion said:

Most of it is. The second part of the Hail Mary was added in recent history and is not from the Bible.

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It is all biblical, although not entirely direct quotes from scripture.

Mary is called full of grace and the Lord is with her. She is blessed among women and the fruit of her womb is blessed. She is the mother of God.

The bible tells us that the prayers of the righteous are powerful and effective and encourages us to seem them.

Thursday said:

It is all biblical, although not entirely direct quotes from scripture..

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Of course you'd think that, but whether or not it is Biblical is open to question. That's unlike the first part of the Hail Mary which is a quotation from Scripture.

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Thursday said:

Luke 1:28 blessed art thou among women.

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Does it then follow that we pray to anyone who is 'blessed?'

Luke 6:20
Blessed are you who are poor.

Is it biblical to pray to the poor? A lot of people have been blessed of God. I do not pray to the poor, no matter how blessed they are, I pray to God.
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