The Irrationality of Alcoholics Anonymous

[Nithavela]

The 12 steps are so deeply ingrained in the United States that many people, including doctors and therapists, believe attending meetings, earning one’s sobriety chips, and never taking another sip of alcohol is the only way to get better. Hospitals, outpatient clinics, and rehab centers use the 12 steps as the basis for treatment. But although few people seem to realize it, there are alternatives, including prescription drugs and therapies that aim to help patients learn to drink in moderation. Unlike Alcoholics Anonymous, these methods are based on modern science and have been proved, in randomized, controlled studies, to work.

For J.G., it took years of trying to “work the program,” pulling himself back onto the wagon only to fall off again, before he finally realized that Alcoholics Anonymous was not his only, or even his best, hope for recovery. But in a sense, he was lucky: many others never make that discovery at all.

The Bad Science of Alcoholics Anonymous

Thought provoking article about alcoholism and drug abuse and the ways society treats (or doesn't treat) them.

 

[compassion 4 humanity]

The Bad Science of Alcoholics Anonymous

Thought provoking article about alcoholism and drug abuse and the ways society treats (or doesn't treat) them.

I admit that I used to have an alcoholism problem and would drink heavy amounts of straight whiskey throughout the day. At the time, I was living with my parents. They were concerned and made me attend Alcoholics Anonymous meetings.

The meetings did little to resolve my drinking problem. I would attend, listen to their stories and input, occasionally speak myself, and then go home not feeling any less inclined to drink. But later my doctor suggested a pill called Naltrexone. The drug is usually used to help people with opioid addiction, but it can also treat alcoholism. I started taking Naltrexone, then my desire to drink heavily vanished practically overnight! It was a miracle.

I agree with you. Alcoholics Anonymous isn't the best way for heavy drinkers to treat their alcoholism. There are pills like Naltrexone which work wonders.

 

[Long Island Pilgrim]

So true!

There's also a

Great documentary on this subject called :
The 13th Step' - Explosive Exposé of AA

 

[jayem]

Having emotional support is helpful when one is dealing with addiction, but it has to congruent with one's personality and values. I know AA wouldn't work for me. I couldn't relate to the "higher power" idea.

Off topic a bit. From the article:

An estimated 18 million Americans suffer from alcohol-use disorder, as the DSM-5, the latest edition of the American Psychiatric Association’s diagnostic manual, calls it. (The new term replaces the older alcohol abuse and the much more dated alcoholism, which has been out of favor with researchers for decades.)

What happened to the even older term "dipsomania?" I suppose it's now very un-PC, but it's a cool term.

 

[Doug Melven]

If the 12 steps are done correctly, they will work.
But, if you are not willing to put the effort into the program or you want a quick fix to your problem, they will not work.
The way most 12-step programs are done, will not work.
Being able to have a rock or tree as your higher power will not help at all no matter how much effort is put into the program.
Christ must be your one and only higher power.
Taking drugs is not the answer.
That is only substituting one problem for another. The core issue has not been solved: addiction.

 

[USincognito]

If the 12 steps are done correctly, they will work.
But, if you are not willing to put the effort into the program or you want a quick fix to your problem, they will not work.
The way most 12-step programs are done, will not work.
Being able to have a rock or tree as your higher power will not help at all no matter how much effort is put into the program.
Christ must be your one and only higher power.
Taking drugs is not the answer.
That is only substituting one problem for another. The core issue has not been solved: addiction.

Ah, so 12 Step isn't Buddhists or Jews then.

 

[bhsmte]

12 step, has always been shown to have a low success rate. Each individual is different and therefore, one solution is not the end all be all.

 

[rturner76]

AA is not for everybody, nether is sobriety. In my personal experience which is not a clinical experiment blah blah blah, when a person comes to the program, uses a sponsor, does the steps with the guidance of a good sponsor, attends regular meetings, and completely gives themself over to the program. That is what is says in the Book in the chapter "How it works" I have in the long term seen nobody fail who does this with an open heart and mind in all honesty.

That doesn't mean they will never drink again or struggle within the program. I can tell you 9 out of 10 people who fail at AA have neglected some aspect of the program due to personal pride.

Like the poster above me (not picking on you,it'sa very common response) who said it wouldn't work for him because you must believe in a higher power. Well, a group of people is a power greater than yourself or myself.It doesn't say you have to believe in"God" or an "All mighty power" just one that is greater than you are. That trips a lot of people up because they can't accept their own limitations.

That brings me to another reason people walk out...Step1 "We admitted to ourselves that we were powerless over alcohol and our lives had become unmanageable. Many people don't want to admit that they are powerless. If we had the power to quit on our own we probably would have and there must be some consequences going on that made us want to come to the meeting so we are likely not managing our lives. If we were managing we likely would have no need to quit.

I can go on and on about how people self sabotage their program. The bottom line is if you have the desire to stop, and you do everything they say,I mean everything-including stuff you don't want to do and stuff that is uncomfortable and stuff that take sup your personal TV time. You may have to make new friends,drop old friends, and actually be thereto listen to other people's problems. You may have to visit a detox center or a jail not just while you are sobering up but for the rest of your life.

People get sober and stop going to meetings, stop calling their sponsor and that's when they relapse and say AA doesn't work. The same behavior that got us sober is the same behavior that keeps us sober. It's not a cure, it's not a treatment, it's a program that amounts to a new way of living where you actually become a more thoughtful, grateful, responsible, person in all aspects of life.

You can take a pill and get sober but what do you do when you just switch addictions to sex? Many do switch addictions if you don't change your actual behavior and life motivation.

I think people hate AA 1 because they don't want to do any work 2 They don't want to change their self centered ways

 

[Halbhh]

The Bad Science of Alcoholics Anonymous

Thought provoking article about alcoholism and drug abuse and the ways society treats (or doesn't treat) them.

Yeah! I'd seen that when the Atlantic first pulled it up from the archive, and read it a month or two ago.

My overall view now is that AA will help people variously (differently for different individuals), according to their unique actual interior processes. For some portion (perhaps a significant portion) they will do quite well, while also doing AA, and even for some of those, in significant part because of some of the particular steps. But, for some (many) individuals these steps cannot even be done, because they aren't in a place to be able to implement them, even if trying.

So there would be a whole range of various subcategories of partial or non usage of various steps, and then next also just the unique situations of already unique people, etc.

But, I found something recently much more valuable to realize as soon as I find the link, in a minute....

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Nothing would have helped my brother. He and everyone else knew he wouldn't quit drinking, and it finally killed him. In my opinion it is often used as a means of committing slow suicide. Such attitudes are born out of complete hopelessness, which cannot be reversed in the individual.

 

[Larniavc]

The Bad Science of Alcoholics Anonymous

Thought provoking article about alcoholism and drug abuse and the ways society treats (or doesn't treat) them.

Abstinence works for some people, others need to maintain a low value of intake.

What annoys me is the idea that you can’t do it alone.

 

[Halbhh]

The Bad Science of Alcoholics Anonymous

Thought provoking article about alcoholism and drug abuse and the ways society treats (or doesn't treat) them.

Here it is! Don't like the title fool you, this is about a key reason addiction is so potent, and what in contrast helps effectively against it! (stigma is only a side issue)

You should be amazed at what the rats do with the cocaine laced water vs pure water in different situations!

Johann Hari: Does Stigmatizing Addiction Perpetuate It? (but stigma isn't the heart of this even a bit, but there is something in this program vastly more interesting and useful to realize)

Nicely, this has an audio link, so you can listen as you do whatever.

 

[com7fy8]

I have not done much drinking, but I did go with my father to meetings, while he was alive and a speaker and Twelve-Step worker, and then ministering in A.A. So, I'm offering my perspective as someone who has visited meetings and discussion groups and I have seen how my father changed while in A.A. and he got born-again and then did A.A. differently.

He said A.A. wants to have communication with the public so we can have understanding together. But there are people who can isolate themselves in their A.A. ways. They can feel that nonalcoholics can't understand them, and be very upset if religious people say anything to them. And there can be fidelity problems, with such a selection of men and women mixing each evening with one another away from their families. And my father said there are ones who have switched to barbiturates and then have had a much worse addiction problem.

So . . . there are ones who do it right, there are ones who don't.

I understand that the Twelve Steps can be done with Bible application of each step. And I observe how a number of Bible claiming people do not do things which they need to do, and which are the Biblical meaning of the Twelve Steps.

For one example, the eleventh step means to get into better and better conscious sharing with God in His love. How could this be bad????? And it means to personally submit to how He guides us. But there are some number of people claiming to be Christian who are not about constantly seeking God for Himself and enjoying Him in His love and personally submitting to how He guides us in His own peace. They put Him right on "time out", after prayer, if they even give Him that much attention.

And there is the "powerless" part, in an earlier step. A number of Jesus naming people think we have all the power to decide and control things. But we are powerless to change our character from being selfish to being Christ-like. God is the One and Only who is able to change us into having the nature of His love, which the Bible guarantees He has done in His children > 1 John 4:17, Hebrews 12:4-11.

So, with some inspiration, I would say, we can benefit from the right meaning of any step . . . even if I have not been a substance abuser. I have been a conceitaholic, looking down on others, judging who is good enough for me to love, self-righteously criticizing people. Only God has gotten me out of being in denial about this, only God has changed me to get a clue that I need to find out how to love. I have been powerless to get myself to do better.

 

[Halbhh]

Nothing would have helped my brother. He and everyone else knew he wouldn't quit drinking, and it finally killed him. In my opinion it is often used as a means of committing slow suicide. Such attitudes are born out of complete hopelessness, which cannot be reversed in the individual.

We moved to a town and became friends with a family that had an alcoholic, and I personally got to know him, and we were a kind of friends (he was a nice person). During visits, I saw close up how he was flailing, and when he drank himself to death a few years later, we were not surprised. I used to play cards with him, and he'd be half drunk, but still very likeable.

 

[Halbhh]

Having emotional support is helpful when one is dealing with addiction, but it has to congruent with one's personality and values. I know AA wouldn't work for me. I couldn't relate to the "higher power" idea.

Off topic a bit. From the article:

An estimated 18 million Americans suffer from alcohol-use disorder, as the DSM-5, the latest edition of the American Psychiatric Association’s diagnostic manual, calls it. (The new term replaces the older alcohol abuse and the much more dated alcoholism, which has been out of favor with researchers for decades.)

What happened to the even older term "dipsomania?" I suppose it's now very un-PC, but it's a cool term.

I posted a link above to a key finding as related in an TED talk via NPR, and you'll it useful I expect.

Having said this, while one could surely benefit crucially from 'connection' as the speaker words it, there is in addition to the good and helpful forms of connection most people know of, also a deep connection one can find, to the ineffable, the One Who has always been. If one seeks sincerely to find Him, with all their heart, He will connect with them.

 

[Nithavela]

I find it interesting that one of the first defenses people jump to is "AA always works when people put their best effort into it." This defense comes with an inbuilt caveat that makes it seemingly unassailable: If it doesn't work, it automatically isn't the fault of the program, but always the fault of the individual who doesn't succeed.

This is where it all gets pretty cult-like in my opinion. The cult is always right. There is no way except the way of the cult. Shun those who criticise the cult or offer alternatives, for the cult is always right.

Fact is, as the article demonstrates, it doesn't always work. It doesn't even work most of the time. The best numbers that could be found are in the single digits.

Instead of saying "well, those 90+ percent of people just didn't try enough, so why should we care about them?", it would be far more productive to see if other means of support like the mentioned drugs would save more people from their dependency.

 

[jayem]

I know there are non-religious/secular 12-step type programs around. I don't know if there is any reliable data on their success rates. The article has more info.

Psychology Today--AA Without the God?

 

[Nithavela]

I know there are non-religious/secular 12-step type programs around. I don't know if there is any reliable data on their success rates. The article has more info.

Psychology Today--AA Without the God?

The main grief of the article is not the inclusion of religion, but the requirement of 100% abstinence, the lacking success data, the unscientific approach, the unqualified personel and the one size fits all approach that is pushed by lobbying and through courts.

 

[Halbhh]

Need a good aid right now for someone?

What really does work, from a Ted Talk, via NPR:

Johann Hari [I'd title this: Connection vs Addiction -- Or what made the 2nd group of rats choose the water *without* the cocaine...]

 

[Tanj]

Being able to have a rock or tree as your higher power will not help at all no matter how much effort is put into the program.

You understand Rock hears and reads everything, and is easily displeased....

 

[Doug Melven]

You understand Rock hears and reads everything, and is easily displeased....

Good for Rock. I don't know who that is.
Does Rock help anybody?