The Inspiration of Scripture

redleghunter said:

Thousands of examples like the one you quoted exist, yet self proclaimed Christians still don't want to admit the Holy Scriptures are inspired and the Words of God.

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There's a lot of little Bart Ehrmans out there.....

bekkilyn said:

What I specifically said was:

For Methodists, it's scripture + tradition + reason + personal experience, with scripture being the primary source and standard for Christian doctrine. We are prima scriptura and not sola scriptura.

There was no claim here that tradition is "on par" with scripture as a source of Christian doctrine. However, scripture is not the *only* source as sola scriptura claims.

We are all divine in origin as God created all. Still doesn't mean we are God.

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Well, humans are sinful, and there are things and ideas (or beliefs) out there that are of a sinful origin. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. So while we may have our origins from God, that does not mean we have not went astray as a whole (i.e. mankind). When I say the Bible is divine in origin, I am saying that it's origins are seeded in it being a divine book that is currently holy. God tells us His stories in His Word through men of God. The Word of God is divine. The Bible are very holy words of God Himself. They are His holy words for us today. They are divine words for us currently. We are not divine in the same way. God's Word is holy. Believers in Jesus Christ can lead a sanctified or holy life, but this is only by obedience to God and His Word, and the working of God within them. But men are not that way automatically. God's Word has always been holy (and still is holy). For the purpose of God's Word is profitable for doctrine, and instruction in righteousness, etc. To live a holy life. This can only be possible if God's Word is truly holy. A partially dirty book or imperfect book (imperfect Scripture) cannot lead the man of God to be perfect unto ALL good works as 2 Timothy 3:16-17 says.

Also, no evidences.... I repeat.... no evidences show that traditions of men (from churches) is on the same level as being holy as the Bible is holy. There are tons of evidences showing us that the Bible is a holy book that is inspired by God. That is what I mean when I say the Bible is divine in origin. It is currently a holy book and it is not defiled like men have been defiled. God's Word are pure words, just as the Bible says.

Furthermore, 2 Timothy 3:16-17 (if believed) means that Scripture is sufficient for doctrine, and instruction in righteousness so that the man of God may be perfect unto ALL good works. So there is no need for any traditions in addition to Scripture. The "traditions" that Paul is talking about (in Thessalonians) is another word for "teachings." He says hold to the teachings you have been taught by either their word, or by their epistle (written work). Their words were consistent with what they were saying in the written works and not something additional. The spoken teachings would be written down at some point of which we now have. For at the time, Scripture was still being formed. It was not finished yet. There was no such thing as a oral tradition (passed down) in addition to written Scripture. They were merely speaking God's Word at that time before the Scripture canon was closed. There is no indication in the Bible that these oral traditions were something totally different that was to be recorded in what we now know of as Scripture. For do we have Paul's oral traditions written down in a book that is not regarded as Scripture? No. In fact, the majority of the time the word "traditions" appears in the Bible it is in a negative sense. Jesus condemned the traditions of men because they many times violated the Word of God.

redleghunter said:

And yet, there are no contradictions in the Holy Scriptures.

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First, I am not sharing this to say there are contradictions. There are no verses that have been sent to me yet (over 2 decades) that I couldn't find an answer for. Including, by the way, these two:

Acts 9:7 And the men who journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice but seeing no one.

Acts 22:9 And those who were with me indeed saw the light and were afraid, but they did not hear the voice of Him who spoke to me.

The problem with our modern perception of "inspiration" is that we tend to lean toward the idea that inspiration means perfection. It doesn't, it means that God filled the authors with an ability to convey the essence of His thoughts. He didn't take them over and inhabit their bodies like something we'd see in an episode of Star Trek. He simply filled them with the ability to share the insights God desired them to share. So I don't have a problem with the above 2 verses that very plainly are at odds. They don't hurt my faith... they don't challenge my belief that God inspired Paul to write. How do you explain the two verses?

Blessings.
Ken

To all:

Jesus says,
"But in vain they do worship me,
teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." (Matthew 15:9).

What if.... the teachings you think are the traditions of God, are actually only the commandments of men? If so, then Jesus says one is worshiping God in vain if one is teaching these doctrines of men.

How can we know if they are teachings of the doctrines of men?
Are they divine words like God's words?
Are they infallible like the Word of God?

In fact, most teachings that come from a man (Whereby they call themselves after this person in many cases) is teaching something that is not explicitly taught in God's Word. People make this man out to be the leader of who they actually follow. It is their teachings that they uplift and it is not God and His Word.

Jason0047 said:

What if.... the teachings you think are the traditions of God, are actually only the commandments of men? If so, then Jesus says one is worshiping God in vain if one is teaching these doctrines of men.

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There is a difference between an unknown sin or unintentional sin... and rebellion (a deliberate stand against God). So if somebody is following a tradition of man thinking they are following the will of God, they would be doing so without intent. It would still be sin but forgivable because the truth isn't known to them about that piece of information.

Ken Rank said:

There is a difference between an unknown sin or unintentional sin... and rebellion (a deliberate stand against God). So if somebody is following a tradition of man thinking they are following the will of God, they would be doing so without intent. It would still be sin but forgivable because the truth isn't known to them about that piece of information.

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No. Matthew 15:9 means what it says. Please read it again. A person cannot worship God in vain and also be right with the Lord. Worshiping God is a part of the greatest commandment (Which is to love God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength). Luke 10:25-28 teaches that we need to love God (with some details) and love our neighbor as a part of inheriting eternal life.

Jason0047 said:

No. Matthew 15:9 means what it says. Please read it again. A person cannot worship God in vain and also be right with the Lord. Worshiping God is a part of the greatest commandment (Which is to love God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength). Luke 10:25-28 teaches that we need to love God (with some details) and love our neighbor as a part of inheriting eternal life.

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Right... so what you're saying Jason, is that EVERY aspect of your practice and understanding are the perfect will of God and that we all need to do and say as you do and say? See, you are either perfected, or imperfect and if imperfect... capable of error. Why do we need to be perfected? Because we aren't perfect.

Ken Rank said:

Right... so what you're saying Jason, is that EVERY aspect of your practice and understanding are the perfect will of God and that we all need to do and say as you do and say? See, you are either perfected, or imperfect and if imperfect... capable of error. Why do we need to be perfected? Because we aren't perfect.

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Being perfect (generally speaking) according to the Bible is not a salvation issue. Loving God, and loving your neighbor are the basics as a part of eternal life.

Jason0047 said:

Being perfect (generally speaking) according to the Bible is not a salvation issue. Loving God, and loving your neighbor are the basics as a part of eternal life.

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You've changed the subject. I wasn't talking about salvation... I was talking about somebody who was unknowingly raised in a tradition that isn't from God. That person has no intent on displeasing God, but hasn't heard the truth ON THAT MATTER yet. You're position all but has them damned... they can't be a worshiper and be wrong like that according to you. And I find that to be unbiblical and unmerciful.

mark kennedy said:

If the individule responds to God's natural revelation, they will respond to the Word of God. Like Jesus said, my sheep know my voice. The pages of Scripture contain a unique witness from crucial times in redemptive history. I don't know what alternative sources might be siutable but your not going to find anything like the Bible.

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I believe we are starting to see the influence of Swedenborgianism on mainline churches.

Jason0047 said:

One of the major reasons that Jesus and the prophets did miracles was to confirm the Word of God.

"...the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen." (Mark 16:20).

This means that if somebody actually heard God today, they would have to confirm that this was indeed the Word of God by signs (miracles) following. Why do you think God gave Moses the ability to do miracles? It was to confirm that he was indeed a prophet of God and it was to authenticate the word of God that he would give to his people.

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Good points Jason.

.

Ken Rank said:

...when they (Apostles, particularly Paul) refer to the written word of God, they are not thinking of their own letters...

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Agree.
As example, lets take one passage from one epistle and at the very crux of this discussion: 2 Timothy 3:15.
For the sake of discussion, let's presume (probably falsely, but for the sake of discussion) that because of Timothy's relationship with Paul, he (Timothy) owned and had read and was familiar with every N.T. document to date.
Now our verse: (KJV) And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
It is chronologically impossible for Timothy to have opened that letter, reading it for the first time and have known 2 Timothy 3:15 from a child - it only came in the mail that day.
Now when we place that verse on a timeline (roughly AD 65-66) we know for a fact that 2 Timothy 3:15 is NOT referencing any books written after that date. It's impossible, unless we are introducing time-travel into the story.
The only scriptures Timothy could have known "from a child" would be O.T.
I don't understand how so many can be that chronologically challenged but it is widespread.

devin553344 said:

We already proved Paul put his words, not Lords in the bible. Not that he contradicts Jesus in this instance? 1 Corinthians 7:12

But it leaves the door open I think.

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Paul qualifies the statement in verse 12 with this from verse 17:

Only, as the Lord has assigned to each one, as God has called each, in this manner let him walk. And so I direct in all the churches. (1 Corinthians 7:17)

redleghunter said:

No one said such.

God’s will will be done on earth as it is in Heaven.

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The idea has been heavily applied and I see the idea leading to outright heterodoxy if not heresy

Tutorman said:

The idea has been heavily applied and I see the idea leading to outright heterodoxy if not heresy

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It would be helpful if you could point out the heavily applied posts.

Ken Rank said:

You've changed the subject. I wasn't talking about salvation... I was talking about somebody who was unknowingly raised in a tradition that isn't from God. That person has no intent on displeasing God, but hasn't heard the truth ON THAT MATTER yet. You're position all but has them damned... they can't be a worshiper and be wrong like that according to you. And I find that to be unbiblical and unmerciful.

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Jesus says, "narrow is the way," Jesus also says "Few there be that find it." (See: Matthew 7:14).

redleghunter said:

It would be helpful if you could point out the heavily applied posts.

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Most of the ones defending inspiration that think it's God's very words. Such an idea is not inspiration but auto writing which is not of God but of the enemy of our souls.

Tutorman said:

Most of the ones defending inspiration that think it's God's very words. Such an idea is not inspiration but auto writing which is not of God but of the enemy of our souls.

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Do you consider statements in Scripture which say "thus saith the Lord", "This is the Word of God", "I preach to you the Word of God" as truly the words of God being communicated?

Jason0047 said:

Because the Bible is confirmed to be the very words of God ten times over with many evidences.

You can check to see the many evidences that back up God's Word here:

Love Branch: Evidences for the Word of God

The poster who thought they heard Jesus actually is receiving a message that conflicts with God's Word. They heard what they believed to be God saying, "Jesus loves you" confirming their unbiblical view of Once Saved Always Saved. Yet, nowhere does the Bible teach this doctrine, and nowhere does the Bible say that Jesus unconditionally loves us. Actually, Jesus says, "If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love." (John 15:10). Granted, I am sure Jesus does love all people to some degree, but it is not the kind of love that will abide in a person and neither save them. A person needs to keep His commandments to abide in His love; Also, 1 Corinthians 16:22 says that "if any man loves not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed."

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So Jesus only loves us if we keep his commandments? Do we have to keep them all of the time, most of the time, some of the time or just a little bit of the time? If you can try and use scripture and not the interpretation of men(opinions). This could really help me understand because I’ve been trying to figure out what’s what without people adding their own opinion to what Jesus is saying. Thanks.