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Nothing in the N.T. talks about a second blessing or another rebirth after being born again. A believer does not get a portion/part of the Holy Spirit indwelling them. One either has the Spirit and are a child of God or they do not have the spirit are are a child of the devil. The Baptism of the Spirit takes place at the new birth, being born again, born of the Spirit etc......
What the Bible does make clear and plainly teaches is that believers are commanded the following 4 things :
1- Be filled with the Spirit
2- Walk in the Spirit
3- Do not quench the Spirit
4- Do not grieve the Holy Spirit
hope this helps !!!
Disciples at Pentecost.Hi there,
Thanks for your response.
A couple of questions...
When do you think the disciples were born again ???
Did Jesus have the Holy Spirit when He was born???
Disciples at Pentecost.
Since Jesus is God then He has always had the Father , Holy Spirit in Him. It’s called the interdwelling of the Father , Son and Holy Spirit in theology known as Perichoresis. So there never has been a time it was not since God is Immutable.
hope this helps !!!
The main reason I say at Pentecost is because that is when the transformation of the Apostles took place and the promise of Jesus to tarry and wait as per John 14-16 with the promise of the Holy Spirit who in the future would be in them. In Acts 1 just prior to Jesus Ascension He told them the following and notice its still future.No argument from me here, just offering thoughts and my own musings.
Pentecost makes possible sense. I also thought it possible during during Jesus' ministry.
As a Lutheran I understand regeneration to be about our receiving faith, that is regeneration refers to our receiving the new man, which has faith from God. So in that sense, the moment the disciples believed in Him, they are regenerated. When, exactly, that happened is possibly impossible to say. But seeing that the sending of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost was such a pivotal moment whereby the promise of the Gospel that all who belong to Christ receive the Holy Spirit who indwells those who believe is solidified; that also makes sense.
In a sense I think this is like asking when the apostles were baptized, that's kind of unknowable. There are several arguments out there, for example an appeal is made to when Jesus washes their feet, and Peter says he wants to be washed completely and Jesus says that Peter is washed completely; in this sense this was their baptism (or so it's been argued). Others have speculated that they may have been personally baptized by the Lord after His resurrection prior to His ascension, after having instituted Baptism in the Great Commission. If I had to say which those arguments I like better, I think the first one at least has some biblical support, whereas the other is simply guesswork. But I also wouldn't argue any position that strongly.
Which is all to say, I wonder if it's even all that important. We know that they were born again, they had faith in the Lord, they received the Holy Spirit. They were in the most unique position any Christian has ever been in, as those who walked with the Lord during His earthly ministry and who bore direct witness to His resurrection, and were tasked with all those things which Christ tasked them with to deliver to the first generation of converts all the way down to us today; that we too might hear and believe the Gospel and abide with the Lord.
Ultimately, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, the word they delivered is what we read in Holy Scripture. Even if things maybe "worked" slightly different for them because of that unique position of being the recipients and depositors of Christ's word for all generations, what they have given us is what we receive.
As far as your second point concerning the Perichoresis, I am simply in 100% agreement and have no further to add to it.
-CryptoLutheran
A good discussion, Carl...A couple of questions...
When do you think the disciples were born again ???
with regards to the "gifts of the Spirit" this is referenced in 1 Cor 12-14 passage regarding the teaching of the gifts. The word used is not "gift" in its literal sense but "charisma" which is rooted in the word "charis" which means grace. I would look to 1 Cor 12-14 to understand proper uses of these gifts in operation but also implicitly by the word used would call this "charisma" a product upon charis or another way to put it "grace given gifts" or the indwellingHi there,
I am keen for some members to respond to this thread who are strong in biblical theology - I am not looking for denominational voices.
Here is a teaching for your consideration.
My position on the Holy Spirit Baptism is that it can occur in some individuals as a second event after being born again.
That leads to the question of what is received at re-birth???
What comes with His indwelling presence?
To understand this I reference Isaiah 11
11 Then a shoot will spring from the stem of Jesse,
And a Branch from his roots will bear fruit.
2 The Spirit of the Lord will rest on Him,
The spirit of wisdom and understanding,
The spirit of counsel and strength,
The spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord.
This reference is to seven spirits.
These Seven Spirits of God are also referenced four times in Revelation.
So these seven spirits are given with the indwelling presence of Christ.
- Revelation 1:4
John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from Him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before His throne,
- Revelation 3:
“To the angel of the church in Sardis write: He who has the seven spirits of God and the seven stars, says this: ‘I know your deeds, that you have a name that you are alive, and yet you are dead.
- Revelation 4:5
Out from the throne *came flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder. And there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven spirits of God;
- Revelation 5:6
And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slaughtered, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth.
This was the anointing Jesus received and the anointing that the disciples received when He breathed on them.
Few seem to realise that All believers are to enjoy these manifestations and this is for everyone as these are not the 'Gifts of the Spirit' received later at Pentecost.
I raise this issue because some feel that without the Gifts of the Spirit in operation one is not ready to go out into the world with the gospel.
There is some truth in this because Jesus required the disciples to wait in Jerusalem until they had received the baptism in the spirit.
This is also a strong argument for continuance as surely we in this age are still called to go out empowered with the gospel.
However I believe we have underestimated the impact of receiving the Holy Spirit at rebirth.
These seven Spirits of God should surely be manifest through us regardless of gifts that are given to some.
Disciples at Pentecost.
Since Jesus is God then He has always had the Father , Holy Spirit in Him. It’s called the interdwelling of the Father , Son and Holy Spirit in theology known as Perichoresis. So there never has been a time it was not since God is Immutable.
hope this helps !!!
A good discussion, Carl...
As for the point when the disciples were born again, we have confirming evidence of that all the way back in John 1:41. This was when those two disciples (Andrew as one of them, and likely John as the other) recognized and believed John's testimony regarding Jesus as being the Messiah. "We have found the Messias'", they said, "which is, being interpreted, the Christ." This indicated they had been seeking for the Messiah.
Philip also gave evidence of having been already regenerated by saying he had found Jesus of Nazareth to be the prophesied Messiah (John 1:45).
Christ also confirmed in John 1:47 that Nathaniel coming to meet them was already a regenerated child of God by His saying, "Behold an Israelite, indeed, in whom is no guile!" Nathaniel's instantaneous response to Jesus's first statement to him was an indication that regeneration had already taken place in this man. "Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel", he said to Christ, showing evidence of Nathaniel being a believer who had already been born again.
John 2:11 also gives additional confirmation of regeneration in the disciples after Jesus performed His first miracle in Cana. Linked together with this manifestation of Christ's glory, John says, "And His disciples believed on Him". Belief in Christ can only originate from a heart that has already been regenerated. As Christ once said, one can see the results of the wind blowing, but you can't tell from whence it comes or whither it is going. At what point that born again regeneration had taken place for the disciples, we aren't told in scripture, but, like the wind's effects, we can see these results of their being born again by the living response of believing faith they displayed.
Was the disciples' knowledge of Christ and the gospel perfected at that point? Certainly not; but neither we nor the disciples were regenerated by our level of knowledge regarding spiritual things. Regeneration is followed by the work of continuing sanctification and "growing in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ".
with regards to the "gifts of the Spirit" this is referenced in 1 Cor 12-14 passage regarding the teaching of the gifts. The word used is not "gift" in its literal sense but "charisma" which is rooted in the word "charis" which means grace. I would look to 1 Cor 12-14 to understand proper uses of these gifts in operation but also implicitly by the word used would call this "charisma" a product upon charis or another way to put it "grace given gifts" or the indwelling
Charisma is used in another passage often translated as "gift" which is Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." "gift" here or some translations will say "free gift" is the word "charisma". So Charisma is something given to us and it is interconnected with the word for grace and it is clear it's an upon salvation thing.
The gift of the Holy Spirit is referenced in Acts and in this case "gift" is the literal word for gift which is "dorea". This word is not related to charis/charisma. We have names like Dorothea or Theodore today and these both mean the same thing. the "theo" part means God and the "dor" part is gift. the names both mean "gift of God/God's gift" and it is this "gift" context that Acts takes. Acts does not refer to the charisma of the spirit and 1 Cor does not refer to the dorea of the Spirit. These are two very important and misrepresented concepts because innately they are speaking of different concepts.
Corinthians is a letter to the church and 1 Cor 12-14 speaks to a goal to edify the church. Acts is not a letter and it's not about teaching points, it's about an order of events unfolding. When we see the baptism of the Spirit in Acts it violates the rules given out in 1 Corinthians. 1 Cor is about the gifts given discriminately and in Acts manifestations seem to be poured out more indiscriminately and all respond in a similar way. If it's tongues all speak in tongues, if it's boldness all speak in boldness, etc. Moreover, Acts speaks of manifestations (like boldness) not presented in the list of gifts in 1 Corinthians. I would postulate that the goal of 1 Cor 12-14 is regarding edification inside the body of Christ and Acts has more of an evangelistic goal in mind and this is why they look different.
With that said, if we participate in a body of Christ gathering (aka church) we should not be looking for spiritual encounters that look like Acts unless with an evangelistic motivation in need of supernatural power (Like in Acts 4), instead, we should be looking for a spiritual encounter that is taught in 1 Cor 12-14. If we are looking for a spiritual encounter more analogous to Acts then it probably is going to happen in places where the church is absent hence the need for these power encounters to build the church. There are many unreached areas of the world and I would suggest pocket communities even in the US (or other "Christian" nations) that are resistant to the gospel where the church has not been able to enter. It is in these areas where I would expect an Acts encounter.
What I know is that both the spiritual gifts of 1 Cor 12 and salvation as per Romans 6:23 are translated as the "free gift of God" use the same word "charisma" which is related to the word for grace (charis).My thesis is that abilities come with the indwelling presence of Jesus before the later permanent empowerment with the Spirit - Just as Jesus was indwelled by the Spirit before receiving empowerment at baptism
see post 25 where I give my reasons why I say they were not born again until Pentecost.So you think the disciples were born again at Pentecost...
Maybe your definition of being born in the Spirit is different than mine, because the disciples received the Spirit when He breathed on them long before Pentecost.
We agree that Jesus had the Holy Spirit at birth but that is not the full picture.
When He was baptised in water, the Power of the Spirit come on and remained on Him unlike any other believer.
This was how John the Baptist was to recognise the true Messiah.
Christ compared being born in the Spirit to the wind, as you remember: "So is every one that is born of the Spirit". This shows an OUTSIDE influence being brought to bear on a soul that is dead and cannot perform a single spiritually-living action of its own volition before then. Just as in natural childbirth, the child emerges from the womb and the first visible proof to others that life is present in that child is the first-drawn breath it takes. Believing as the first exercise of faith is like that infant's first-drawn breath, proving that the Spirit is present within that person and has already regenerated them to life.Mmmm... How do you define being born in the Spirit, also known as being Born Again ?
The main reason I say at Pentecost is because that is when the transformation of the Apostles took place and the promise of Jesus to tarry and wait as per John 14-16 with the promise of the Holy Spirit who in the future would be in them. In Acts 1 just prior to Jesus Ascension He told them the following and notice its still future.
Acts 1
On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5 For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”
6 Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”
7 He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”
9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.
Remember Peter denied the Lord, feared his own life and scattered just like the other disciples. They remained in hiding until Pentecost. Peter was transformed that very day and without fear preached the Sermon in Acts 2 boldly before those same Jewish crowds he had feared. And when we read the following in the gospels we know the disciples did not even understand the gospel until Pentecost.
The disciples did not understand the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus which is the gospel.
Matthew 16:8-11
Aware of their discussion, Jesus asked, “You of little faith, why are you talking among yourselves about having no bread? 9 Do you still not understand? Don’t you remember the five loaves for the five thousand, and how many basketfuls you gathered? 10 Or the seven loaves for the four thousand, and how many basketfuls you gathered? 11 How is it you don’t understand that I was not talking to you about bread?
Mark 7:18
And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;
Mark 8:31-33
He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again. 32 He spoke plainly about this, and Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him.
33 But when Jesus turned and looked at his disciples, he rebuked Peter. “Get behind me, Satan!” he said. “You do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.”
Luke 9:43-45
While everyone was marveling at all that Jesus did, he said to his disciples, 44 “Listen carefully to what I am about to tell you: The Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of men.” 45 But they did not understand what this meant. It was hidden from them, so that they did not grasp it, and they were afraid to ask him about it.
Jesus predicts His death a 3rd time
Luke 18:31-34
Jesus took the Twelve aside and told them, “We are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written by the prophets about the Son of Man will be fulfilled. 32 He will be delivered over to the Gentiles. They will mock him, insult him and spit on him; 33 they will flog him and kill him. On the third day he will rise again.”
34 The disciples did not understand any of this. Its meaning was hidden from them, and they did not know what he was talking about.
Luke 24:25-26
He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Did not the Messiah have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?
John 13
Jesus replied, “You do not realize now what I am doing, but later you will understand…. I am telling you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe that I am who I am.”
He doesn't give us those abilities at rebirth, He gave them to Christ. By being in Christ those abilities are ours positionally but experientially they are not ours until we make Christ our own. In other words, if we fail to grow and reach maturity in Christ, we are not wise, virtuous, knowing etc. They are not some automatic ability we manifest simply by virtue of being born again. Whereas our spiritual gift is something that manifests instantly and automatically.Yes - I think that the matter comes down to definitions.
However the issue I want to focus on in this thread is the spiritual abilities that God gives believers at rebirth as recorded in Isaiah 11.
He doesn't give us those abilities at rebirth, He gave them to Christ. By being in Christ those abilities are ours positionally but experientially they are not ours until we make Christ our own. In other words, if we fail to grow and reach maturity in Christ, we are not wise, virtuous, knowing etc. They are not some automatic ability we manifest simply by virtue of being born again. Whereas our spiritual gift is something that manifests instantly and automatically.
Philippians 3:12
Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own.
Huh? How do you get that from what I said?Are you claiming Jesus had a different Holy Spirit than we have ???
I have not claimed they are fully realised before maturity.
The gifts of the Spirit are not instantly exercised perfectly.
What's your point?The disciples were assured of salvation long before Pentecost (Matt 19:28)
Jeremiah 32:40 predicted the indwelling presence of the Fear of the Lord would be sent to seal individuals to righteousness in a New Covenant to come, therefore sealing their salvation.
This was part of the anointing Jesus received.
Paul prayed for believers who were saved to receive the Holy Spirit.
Countless believers come to faith in a similar way and subsequently receive the Holy Spirit Baptism after rebirth.
We cant receive part of the Holy Spirit - God is One.
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