The Incredible Significance of Story

[Tree of Life]

How do you change the world? How do you change yourself?

Consider this thought:

Austrian Philosopher Ivan Illich said: “Neither revolution nor reformation can ultimately change a society, rather you must tell a new powerful tale, one so persuasive that it sweeps away the old myths and becomes the preferred story, one so inclusive that it gathers all the bits of our past and our present into a coherent whole, one that even shines some light into the future so that we can take the next step forward. If you want to change a society, then you have to tell an alternative story.”

Question - What do you think of Ivan Illich’s words? Is he right or wrong and why?

Why Illich is right
Illich is right because at the very bottom of our lives there is a story that we believe to be true. At the very bottom of everything isn’t a set of values we hold or even propositions that we believe - it’s a story. Everything else - all our values, all our propositional beliefs, all of our goals, all of our fears, etc - arise from this fundamental story. We may not even be aware of what this story is or even that it exists, but it’s there, governing everything else about our lives. This story is called a “worldview” and our relationship with our worldview is a relationship of faith - we believe these foundational stories.

Question - What is a worldview? Is it true that our worldviews are really at the bottom of everything in our lives?

A worldview is a foundational story that tells us:
Where we came from
How we fit into the world
What went wrong with the world
What’s going to fix the world
Where the world is going

When worldviews collide
Most of the time we’re debating, discussing, or trying to persuade others we’re not speaking at this foundational level. Usually our values clash together or we debate conceptual truth. Examples of this would be:

Pro-life vs Pro-choice!
Freewill vs Determinism!
Theism vs Atheism!
Gay marriage vs Not Gay marriage!

The reason that we fail to persuade others is because values and concepts are not persuasive. The only thing that’s really truly persuasive are stories. Stories are the things that change our minds. It might be said that the only thing that’s ever truly persuaded someone to change their mind about something is hearing a new story.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

You seem to be separating all the stuff that a worldview is made of (beliefs, values, goals, etc) from the concept of a worldview itself. That seems like a category error. In essence, you are saying: "At the very bottom of everything isn’t worldview - it’s a worldview."

 

[Tree of Life]

You seem to be separating all the stuff that a worldview is made of (beliefs, values, goals, etc) from the concept of a worldview itself. That seems like a category error. In essence, you are saying: "At the very bottom of everything isn’t worldview - it’s a worldview."

A worldview isn't a set of values or goals. It's a story.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

A worldview isn't a set of values or goals. It's a story.

Right. A story that reflects a set of beliefs, values and goals.

 

[True Scotsman]

A worldview isn't a set of values or goals. It's a story.

My worldview is neither. It is a set of principles to guide me in choosing the right values and goals.

 

[Davian]

...

Pro-life vs Pro-choice!
Freewill vs Determinism!
Theism vs Atheism!
Gay marriage vs Not Gay marriage!

Anti-choice vs Pro-choice.
Anti-science vs science.

 

[quatona]

How do you change the world? How do you change yourself?

Consider this thought:

Austrian Philosopher Ivan Illich said: “Neither revolution nor reformation can ultimately change a society, rather you must tell a new powerful tale, one so persuasive that it sweeps away the old myths and becomes the preferred story, one so inclusive that it gathers all the bits of our past and our present into a coherent whole, one that even shines some light into the future so that we can take the next step forward. If you want to change a society, then you have to tell an alternative story.”

Question - What do you think of Ivan Illich’s words? Is he right or wrong and why?

Well, I am not the guy who first asks "Is this right or wrong?" but "Can I relate to this idea?".
As I see it, the fundament are our needs and feelings, and our arguments are basically but post hoc rationalizations. Stories indeed can reach us at this fundamental level better than rational arguments can.
So, yes, stories have a better chance of having an impact on our "being in this world" than rational arguments have. Add to that that good stories - as opposed to arguments - aren´t confrontational or antagonistic, and therefore better suited to open up the receiver.

 

[Tree of Life]

Right. A story that reflects a set of beliefs, values and goals.

A stories that creates beliefs, values, and goals.

 

[Tree of Life]

My worldview is neither. It is a set of principles to guide me in choosing the right values and goals.

I obviously can't challenge you here. If you say this is so then who am I to say otherwise? But I do doubt it. If I was a betting man I'd put my dollar on the notion that there's a story underneath your principles. How could there not be? Principles without stories are meaningless. Principles come from stories.

 

[Tree of Life]

Well, I am not the guy who first asks "Is this right or wrong?" but "Can I relate to this idea?".
As I see it, the fundament are our needs and feelings, and our arguments are basically but post hoc rationalizations. Stories indeed can reach us at this fundamental level better than rational arguments can.
So, yes, stories have a better chance of having an impact on our "being in this world" than rational arguments have. Add to that that good stories - as opposed to arguments - aren´t confrontational or antagonistic, and therefore better suited to open up the receiver.

Indeed. Stories slip past the propositional defenses and go straight to the heart. Especially good stories. If you're persuaded by a good story then your propositional beliefs that oppose it are doomed.

 

[bhsmte]

How do you change the world? How do you change yourself?

Consider this thought:

Austrian Philosopher Ivan Illich said: “Neither revolution nor reformation can ultimately change a society, rather you must tell a new powerful tale, one so persuasive that it sweeps away the old myths and becomes the preferred story, one so inclusive that it gathers all the bits of our past and our present into a coherent whole, one that even shines some light into the future so that we can take the next step forward. If you want to change a society, then you have to tell an alternative story.”

Question - What do you think of Ivan Illich’s words? Is he right or wrong and why?

Why Illich is right
Illich is right because at the very bottom of our lives there is a story that we believe to be true. At the very bottom of everything isn’t a set of values we hold or even propositions that we believe - it’s a story. Everything else - all our values, all our propositional beliefs, all of our goals, all of our fears, etc - arise from this fundamental story. We may not even be aware of what this story is or even that it exists, but it’s there, governing everything else about our lives. This story is called a “worldview” and our relationship with our worldview is a relationship of faith - we believe these foundational stories.

Question - What is a worldview? Is it true that our worldviews are really at the bottom of everything in our lives?

A worldview is a foundational story that tells us:
Where we came from
How we fit into the world
What went wrong with the world
What’s going to fix the world
Where the world is going

When worldviews collide
Most of the time we’re debating, discussing, or trying to persuade others we’re not speaking at this foundational level. Usually our values clash together or we debate conceptual truth. Examples of this would be:

Pro-life vs Pro-choice!
Freewill vs Determinism!
Theism vs Atheism!
Gay marriage vs Not Gay marriage!

The reason that we fail to persuade others is because values and concepts are not persuasive. The only thing that’s really truly persuasive are stories. Stories are the things that change our minds. It might be said that the only thing that’s ever truly persuaded someone to change their mind about something is hearing a new story.

All depends how convinced people are to change their life based on "stories".

 

[Tree of Life]

All depends how convinced people are to change their life based on "stories".

Stories are the only things that really change our lives.

 

[Paradoxum]

Question - What do you think of Ivan Illich’s words? Is he right or wrong and why?

He might be right.

Why Illich is right
Illich is right because at the very bottom of our lives there is a story that we believe to be true. At the very bottom of everything isn’t a set of values we hold or even propositions that we believe - it’s a story.

How do you know?

Everything else - all our values, all our propositional beliefs, all of our goals, all of our fears, etc - arise from this fundamental story.

I don't think that's true. I used to believe in free will, and while I was still Christian (but doubting) I realised that free will doesn't make any sense.

I think there is space for reasoning within our 'stories' and that changes in the story can be influenced by reasoning.

Question - What is a worldview? Is it true that our worldviews are really at the bottom of everything in our lives?

A worldview is a foundational story that tells us:
Where we came from
How we fit into the world
What went wrong with the world
What’s going to fix the world
Where the world is going

But some of these answers can be based on science (eg: where we came from) and that is based on evidence. So worldviews can be change, rather than be the one's doing the changing.

When worldviews collide
Most of the time we’re debating, discussing, or trying to persuade others we’re not speaking at this foundational level. Usually our values clash together or we debate conceptual truth.

I tend to find that debates on here (with a theist) tend to go back to the Bible. So in the end there needs to be a debate on theology, or on whether the Bible is trustworthy.

The reason that we fail to persuade others is because values and concepts are not persuasive. The only thing that’s really truly persuasive are stories. Stories are the things that change our minds. It might be said that the only thing that’s ever truly persuaded someone to change their mind about something is hearing a new story.

I agree that stories can persuade people, but I think reason can too.

 

[Paradoxum]

Well, I am not the guy who first asks "Is this right or wrong?" but "Can I relate to this idea?".
As I see it, the fundament are our needs and feelings, and our arguments are basically but post hoc rationalizations. Stories indeed can reach us at this fundamental level better than rational arguments can.
So, yes, stories have a better chance of having an impact on our "being in this world" than rational arguments have. Add to that that good stories - as opposed to arguments - aren´t confrontational or antagonistic, and therefore better suited to open up the receiver.

I think reasoning does make a difference. I remember reasoning that there was no free will. I don't think I first lost belief then looked a reason.

Maybe stories and reason can both affect each other.

 

[bhsmte]

Stories are the only things that really change our lives.

As long as the story can be reconciled to the person, they can be powerful.

All depends what floats your boat.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

A stories that creates beliefs, values, and goals.

What is a story then?

 

[Tree of Life]

What is a story then?

A fundamental story (or a worldview), as I defined in the OP, is a story that tells us:

1. Where we came from
2. How we fit in the world
3. What went wrong with the world
4. What's going to fix the world
5. Where the world is going

But a more basic definition of story would be a sequence of events relevant for people that has exposition, conflict, and resolution.

 

[Tree of Life]

How do you know?

To me it is self evident.

I don't think that's true. I used to believe in free will, and while I was still Christian (but doubting) I realised that free will doesn't make any sense.

I think there is space for reasoning within our 'stories' and that changes in the story can be influenced by reasoning.

We can reason within our stories. But I think that when we're doing this we're comparing one story with another, making alterations, and arriving at a new story. Thesis, antithesis, synthesis style.

But some of these answers can be based on science (eg: where we came from) and that is based on evidence. So worldviews can be change, rather than be the one's doing the changing.

The evidence that science is producing is telling us a story.

I agree that stories can persuade people, but I think reason can too.

I wouldn't separate the two.

 

[quatona]

Indeed. Stories slip past the propositional defenses and go straight to the heart. Especially good stories. If you're persuaded by a good story then your propositional beliefs that oppose it are doomed.

Then again, a good story always leaves space for interpretation (and it doesn´t carry a direct propositional belief, anyway), so this opposition of story and propositional belief is apples and oranges.

 

[quatona]

I think reasoning does make a difference. I remember reasoning that there was no free will. I don't think I first lost belief then looked a reason.

Yes, sorry - I didn´t mean to speak on your behalf!

Maybe stories and reason can both affect each other.

I agree.