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like I implied many times, the IJ doesnt change anything,
lets say the IJ is taking place, are we to live in a different way then at times it wasnt in effect yet? Were people in a better position before the IJ than during the IJ?
I have come across paranoid concepts regarding the IJ, people claimed to have been afraid of it, in the sense that their name could come up at any given moment and what if ..., this is simplemindedness IMO
I think these are very good questions, which is why I think the importance of it goes beyond just "living right" as we ought to be living that way all the time.
exactly, in the end it doesnt make a difference when a judgment is to take place... the outcome is the key factor...
Those who rejected the message of Miller (a wrong message) wound up praying to the wrong compartment and therefore Jesus didn't intercede for them.
But God who reads the hearts of all, has brought to the test that love for Jesus which they professed to feel. All heaven watched with the deepest interest the reception of the first angel's message. But many who professed to love Jesus, and who shed tears as they read the story of the cross, derided the good news of His coming. Instead of receiving the message with gladness, they declared it to be a delusion. They hated those who loved His appearing and shut them out of the churches. Those who rejected the first message could not be benefited by the second; neither were they benefited by the midnight cry, which was to prepare them to enter with Jesus by faith into the most holy place of the heavenly sanctuary. And by rejecting the two former messages, they have so darkened their understanding that they can see no light in the third angel's message, which shows the way into the most holy place. I saw that as the Jews crucified Jesus, so the nominal churches had crucified these messages, and therefore they have no knowledge of the way into the most holy, and they cannot be benefited by the intercession of Jesus there. Like the Jews, who offered their useless sacrifices, they offer up their useless prayers to the apartment which Jesus has left; and Satan, pleased with the deception, assumes a religious character, and leads the minds of these professed Christians to himself, working with his power, his signs and lying wonders, to fasten them in his snare. Some he deceives in one way, and some in another. He has different delusions prepared to affect different minds. Some look with horror upon one deception, while they readily receive another. Satan deceives some with Spiritualism. He also comes as an angel of light and spreads his influence over the land by means of false reformations. The churches are elated, and consider that God is working marvelously for them, when it is the work of another spirit. The excitement will die away and leave the world and the church in a worse condition than before. {EW 260.1}
Here is another way to put it.
Those who have rejected the sanctuary and IJ message are outside in the court, to and fro daily to the cross while the faith of Israel has reached the Most Holy place. They are justified and are being sanctified by the ministry of Christ and are prepared to meet God in judgment.
The Millerites' message was right for the time. It pointed to the imminent return of Jesus (the world didn't believe the imminent return). It reaffirmed the Protestant's message on the beast and the anti-Christ and preached the calling-out message. Where the Millerites were wrong is where the sanctuary was being cleansed. The Millerites didn't understand it's the sanctuary in heaven that's being cleansed.
Tall, Stryder asked for the importance of this message. It's not another opportunity for you to argue against it.
Yeah, I heard a guy preach on it. We have to know where Jesus is, cause the sheep will follow Him whereever He goeth...
EGW also claimed that people who rejected the message would be praying to satan as he has sat down on the throne while Jesus moved to the Most Holy place... I dont know but to me this is a little weird...
Can we really be held accountable for knowing where Jesus is at the moment?
Do we pray to satan otherwise?
If this message is the present truth, why shouldn't you be held accountable should you decide to ignore or reject it after it's been made known to you?
The bible is full of people who were destroyed by God for being willingly ignorant.
There are two opposing messages:
1. The separation message/calling out message that prepares people to meet God. Amos 4:12.
2. the unity message/ecumenical message that unites people regardless of the doctrines.
Which school of thought would you subscribe to? One is given by God to gather his people. One is given by Satan to gather his people. Who you follow/obey is who you worship.
coming back to the my post.
so EGW says that all didnt jump on the IJ wagon were actually praying to satan as he has sat down on the throne in heaven... this is not necessarily biblical as you might even ackowledge...
Provide the exact quote then we will discuss it.
I actually didnt wanna discuss EGW anymore, but I think this one might actually be worth discussing, I remember checking that one out for its truthfulness in regard to sources, but that was a long time ago,
It is a fundamental teaching of Ellen White and Seventh-day Adventism that Jesus left the Holy Place in 1844 and moved into the Most Holy Place:This door was not opened until the mediation of Jesus was finished in the holy place of the sanctuary in 1844. Then Jesus rose up and shut the door of the holy place, and opened the door into the most holy, and passed within the second veil, where He now stands by the ark, and where the faith of Israel now reaches. I saw that Jesus had shut the door of the holy place, and no man can open it; and that He had opened the door into the most holy, and no man can shut it (Rev. 3:7,8).Early Writings, p. 42 So when Christ entered the holy of holies to perform the closing work of the atonement, He ceased His ministration in the first apartment. Great Controversy, p. 428Confusion about where Jesus is
Despite saying that Jesus "ceased His ministration" in the Holy Place, Mrs. White seems confused about just exactly where He is. She has Him bouncing back and forth between the Holy Place and the Most Holy Place:
He's in the Most Holy Place! No! He's in the Holy Place! Then Jesus rose up and shut the door of the holy place, and opened the door into the most holy, and passed within the second veil, where He now stands by the ark, and where the faith of Israel now reaches. Early Writings, p. 42 (1882) He is today standing at the altar of incense, presenting before God the prayers of those who desire His help. Desire of Ages, p. 568 (1898) I warn you, Do not place your influence against God's commandments. That law is just as Jehovah wrote it in the temple of heaven. Man may trample upon its copy here below, but the original is kept in the ark of God in heaven; and on the cover of this ark, right above that law, is the mercy seat. Jesus stands right there before that ark to mediate for man (MS 6a, 1886). {1BC 1109.1} But Jesus alone is my dependence. In Him I trust. He loveth even me. He is at this moment standing at the altar of incense presenting before the Father my prayers, my heart-longing desires for His grace, His heavenly endowment, that I may through the grace given unto me reveal to others His great love and complete efficiency. 1888 Materials, p. 865 (1888) According to the Bible, the altar of incense is in the Holy Place:And he put the golden altar in the tent of the congregation before the veil: And he burnt sweet incense thereon... Ex. 40:26,27Ellen White is also very specific about where the altar of incense is located. She even claimed to have seen it in the heavenly sanctuary while in vision:"I passed into the Holy Place. Here I saw the Altar of Incense. Before the altar was the table, on which was the candlestick, with seven lamps, and the showbread, &c. After viewing the glory of the Holy, Jesus raised the second veil, and I passed into the Holy of Holies." {Broadside3, April 7, 1847 par. 2} "In the holy place was the candlestick, on the south, with its seven lamps giving light to the sanctuary both by day and by night; on the north stood the table of show-bread; and before the veil separating the holy from the most holy was the golden altar of incense, from which the cloud of fragrance, with the prayers of Israel, was daily ascending before God." {GC88 p. 412; see also GC (1911) p. 412, 4SP p. 260)There can be no doubt at all that Mrs. White understood the altar of incense to be in the Holy Place. She never indicated otherwise in her writings. Now, in 1886, according to Ellen White's manuscript 6a (see above) Jesus was standing in the Most Holy Place. But two years later, in 1888, we find him back in the Holy Place before the altar of incense. Then a year later, in 1889, Jesus is back "within the veil where he ministers above the ark of God in the Most Holy Place." (Signs of the Times, Apr. 22, 1889). However, nine years later, in 1898 we find Jesus ministering by the altar of incense in the Holy Place! How could Jesus possibly be ministering in the Holy Place? Look what Ellen White wrote from one of her visions in Early Writings:
"In the first apartment, or holy place, were the table of showbread, the candlestick, or lampstand, and the altar of incense." {PP p. 348}
I saw the Father rise from the throne, and in a flaming chariot go into the holy of holies within the veil, and sit down. Then Jesus rose up from the throne, and the most of those who were bowed down arose with Him. I did not see one ray of light pass from Jesus to the careless multitude after He arose, and they were left in perfect darkness. ... Then a cloudy chariot, with wheels like flaming fire, surrounded by angels, came to where Jesus was. He stepped into the chariot and was borne to the holiest, where the Father sat. There I beheld Jesus, a great High Priest, standing before the Father. (p. 55)Here we have the Father and Jesus moving into the Most Holy Place in 1844. Now look what happens to those poor souls who did not realize that Jesus moved from the Holy Place to the Most Holy Place in 1844:I turned to look at the company who were still bowed before the throne; they did not know that Jesus had left it. Satan appeared to be by the throne, trying to carry on the work of God. I saw them look up to the throne, and pray, "Father, give us Thy Spirit." Satan would then breathe upon them an unholy influence... (p. 56)Ellen White sees Satan in the Holy Place that Jesus has just recently vacated in 1844, trying to carry on the work of God! But in 1888, Jesus has apparently returned to the Holy Place. The question is, where is Satan? Is he still there in the Holy Place with Christ? Are they working together? Or did they swap places? Did Satan move into the Most Holy Place when Christ entered the Holy Place? Does it get any more confusing than this? For further study: The Day of Atonement: 1844 or Ascension?
Tall, Stryder asked for the importance of this message. It's not another opportunity for you to argue against it.
I actually didnt wanna discuss EGW anymore, but I think this one might actually be worth discussing, I remember checking that one out for its truthfulness in regard to sources, but that was a long time ago,
It is a fundamental teaching of Ellen White and Seventh-day Adventism that Jesus left the Holy Place in 1844 and moved into the Most Holy Place:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
This door was not opened until the mediation of Jesus was finished in the holy place of the sanctuary in 1844. Then Jesus rose up and shut the door of the holy place, and opened the door into the most holy, and passed within the second veil, where He now stands by the ark, and where the faith of Israel now reaches. I saw that Jesus had shut the door of the holy place, and no man can open it; and that He had opened the door into the most holy, and no man can shut it (Rev. 3:7,8).Early Writings, p. 42Confusion about where Jesus is
So when Christ entered the holy of holies to perform the closing work of the atonement, He ceased His ministration in the first apartment. Great Controversy, p. 428
---------------------------------------------------------------
Despite saying that Jesus "ceased His ministration" in the Holy Place, Mrs. White seems confused about just exactly where He is. She has Him bouncing back and forth between the Holy Place and the Most Holy Place:
He's in the Most Holy Place! No! He's in the Holy Place!
===================================================
Then Jesus rose up and shut the door of the holy place, and opened the door into the most holy, and passed within the second veil, where He now stands by the ark, and where the faith of Israel now reaches. Early Writings, p. 42 (1882)
He is today standing at the altar of incense, presenting before God the prayers of those who desire His help. Desire of Ages, p. 568 (1898) I warn you, Do not place your influence against God's commandments. That law is just as Jehovah wrote it in the temple of heaven. Man may trample upon its copy here below, but the original is kept in the ark of God in heaven; and on the cover of this ark, right above that law, is the mercy seat. Jesus stands right there before that ark to mediate for man (MS 6a, 1886).
{1BC 1109.1} But Jesus alone is my dependence. In Him I trust. He loveth even me. He is at this moment standing at the altar of incense presenting before the Father my prayers, my heart-longing desires for His grace, His heavenly endowment, that I may through the grace given unto me reveal to others His great love and complete efficiency. 1888 Materials, p. 865 (1888)
----------------------------------------------------------------
According to the Bible, the altar of incense is in the Holy Place:And he put the golden altar in the tent of the congregation before the veil: And he burnt sweet incense thereon... Ex. 40:26,27Ellen White is also very specific about where the altar of incense is located. She even claimed to have seen it in the heavenly sanctuary while in vision:
===================================================
"I passed into the Holy Place. Here I saw the Altar of Incense. Before the altar was the table, on which was the candlestick, with seven lamps, and the showbread, &c. After viewing the glory of the Holy, Jesus raised the second veil, and I passed into the Holy of Holies." {Broadside3, April 7, 1847 par. 2}There can be no doubt at all that Mrs. White understood the altar of incense to be in the Holy Place. She never indicated otherwise in her writings. Now, in 1886, according to Ellen White's manuscript 6a (see above) Jesus was standing in the Most Holy Place. But two years later, in 1888, we find him back in the Holy Place before the altar of incense. Then a year later, in 1889, Jesus is back
"In the holy place was the candlestick, on the south, with its seven lamps giving light to the sanctuary both by day and by night; on the north stood the table of show-bread; and before the veil separating the holy from the most holy was the golden altar of incense, from which the cloud of fragrance, with the prayers of Israel, was daily ascending before God." {GC88 p. 412; see also GC (1911) p. 412, 4SP p. 260)
"In the first apartment, or holy place, were the table of showbread, the candlestick, or lampstand, and the altar of incense." {PP p. 348}
=============================================
=============================================
"within the veil where he ministers above the ark of God in the Most Holy Place." (Signs of the Times, Apr. 22, 1889).
============================================
However, nine years later, in 1898 we find Jesus ministering by the altar of incense in the Holy Place! How could Jesus possibly be ministering in the Holy Place? Look what Ellen White wrote from one of her visions in ===================================================
Early Writings:
I saw the Father rise from the throne, and in a flaming chariot go into the holy of holies within the veil, and sit down. Then Jesus rose up from the throne, and the most of those who were bowed down arose with Him. I did not see one ray of light pass from Jesus to the careless multitude after He arose, and they were left in perfect darkness. ... Then a cloudy chariot, with wheels like flaming fire, surrounded by angels, came to where Jesus was. He stepped into the chariot and was borne to the holiest, where the Father sat. There I beheld Jesus, a great High Priest, standing before the Father. (p. 55)Here we have the Father and Jesus moving into the Most Holy Place in 1844. Now look what happens to those poor souls who did not realize that Jesus moved from the Holy Place to the Most Holy Place in 1844:
------
------
I turned to look at the company who were still bowed before the throne; they did not know that Jesus had left it. Satan appeared to be by the throne, trying to carry on the work of God. I saw them look up to the throne, and pray, "Father, give us Thy Spirit." Satan would then breathe upon them an unholy influence... (p. 56)Ellen White sees Satan in the Holy Place that Jesus has just recently vacated in 1844, trying to carry on the work of God! But in 1888, Jesus has apparently returned to the Holy Place. The question is, where is Satan? Is he still there in the Holy Place with Christ? Are they working together? Or did they swap places? Did Satan move into the Most Holy Place when Christ entered the Holy Place? Does it get any more confusing than this? For further study: The Day of Atonement: 1844 or Ascension?
==================================
it should be easier now, even though it wasnt actually too difficult to figure it out (guess you just skimmed it)
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