The Immaculate Conception?

[RND]

The following is from the book "The Wine of Babylon" by Mary E. Walsh, a former Catholic.

The Tenth sip from the cup of Babylon's A wine, which we shall call "The Immaculate Conception," is one of profound importance. Mariolatry is practiced by every devout Roman Catholic. There are myriads of churches and altars erected to Mary all over the world, and all pay her homage. They bow at her shrine to worship and to pray to her as their mediator. In their prayers to her they give expression not only to an impoverished spiritual condition but also to an unbounded confidence in her as the great liberator of the oppressed soul, as the following words will attest:

"Remember, O most gracious virgin Mary, that never was it known that anyone who fled to thy protection, implored thy help, and sought thy intercession, was left unaided. Inspired with this confidence, I fly unto thee, O virgin of virgins, my mother. To thee I come, before thee I stand, sinful and sorrowful. O mother of the Word Incarnate, despise not my petitions, but in thy mercy hear and answer me. Amen." - Roderick MacEachen, Complete Catechism of Christian Doctrine, p. 15​

Another papal writer quotes this prayer:

O Mary, we poor sinners know no other refuge than thee, for thou art our only hope, and on thee we rely for our salvation. Thou art our only advocate with Jesus Christ; to thee we all turn ourselves." - Alfonsus M. de Iiguori, The Glories of Mary (Revised by Robert A. Coffin), p. 96​

It is astonishing to find that centuries passed before the doctrine of the immaculate conception of Mary was accepted by the Roman Church as a dogma. The following statement taken from Cardinal Gibbons's works acknowledges that the:

"immaculate conception was not formulated into a dogma of faith till 1854. ... It is in strict harmony with the place which Mary holds in the economy of redemption." - Cardinal James Gibbons, The Faith of Our Fathers, p. 171​

It was on December 8, 1854, that Pius IX, with 600 other bishops issued the famous bull that forever stilled a controversy which had existed among Roman Catholics for centuries.

"The bull Ineffabilis of Pius IX, December, 1854, declares 'that the doctrine which holds that the blessed virgin Mary, at the very first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of the Omnipotent God, in virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of mankind, was preserved free from all stain of original sin, has been revealed by God, and therefore should firmly and constantly be believed by all the faithful." - Bertrand L. Conway, The Question-Box Answers, edition of 1920, P. 375​

By the generality of Roman Catholics the date of December 8 is accepted as the feast of the Immaculate Conception without a word of remonstrance. Is it not strange that more people are not inclined to investigate the origin of the doctrines they hold? Such an investigation would lead them to acknowledge that the Roman Catholic Church's position on this subject is diametrically opposed to the teachings of the word of God. The papal church teaches that an immaculate mother had to be provided, alleging that Christ would not consent to become incarnate in flesh defiled by sin. Says one papal doctor:

"It was becoming that the Son should have an immaculate mother. He Himself chose Mary for His mother. It is impossible to believe that a son who could have a queen for his mother would choose a slave. How, then, can we imagine that the Eternal Word, who could have an ever-immaculate mother, and one who had always been the friend of God, would have one defiled by sin, and at one time the enemy of God? Moreover, as an ancient author says, 'the flesh of Christ is the flesh of Mary.' The Son of God would have felt horror to have taken flesh of a Saint Agnes, a Saint Gertrude, or of a Saint Teresa, because these holy virgins were defiled by sin before baptism; and therefore the devil could then have reproached Him with being clothed with flesh which had once been subject to him. But as Mary was always pure and immaculate, our Lord felt no horror at becoming man in her chaste womb. Besides, Saint Thomas says, that 'Mary was preserved from every actual sin, even venial;' for otherwise she would not have been a becoming mother of God; but how much less would she have been so, had she been defiled by original sin, which renders the soul hateful to God?" - Alfonsus M. de Liguori, The Glories of Mary, Pages 643​

Does the Written Word support the doctrine of the immaculate conception of Mary? Let Mary herself answer the question: "And Mary said, My soul does magnify the Lord, and my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Savior." Luke 1:46,47. Mary said, "My Savior," thus signifying that she needed a Redeemer, one who saves from sin.

Years after Mary was born, the apostle Paul, writing under divine inspiration, declared that "all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." Romans 3:23. It is quite evident, therefore, that the Lord did not reveal to him the doctrine of the immaculate conception.

Such teaching strikes at the very heart of the gospel. If Mary was immaculately conceived, as the Roman Catholic Church claims, she would not have given Christ a body "in the likeness of sinful flesh," Romans 8:3 and He could not have been tempted as we are by Satan. The record of His life attests to the fact that Satan followed His steps indefatigably from the moment He was born until the time of His death. Why was the Son of God spending hours and nights in prayer to His heavenly Father for power to meet the enemy, if He were immune to sin? The apostle speaks of Him as one "who in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto Him that was able to save Him from death, and was heard in that He feared; though He were a Son, yet learned He obedience by the things which He suffered. And being made perfect, He became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey Him." Hebrews 5:7-9

All that Mary gave to Christ was His human body. It is a law of nature that one cannot give what one does not possess, and Mary, being human in every aspect of, the word, could not impart to her Son the nature of divinity. Christ's divine nature was from the days of eternity, even before the earth or Mary ever existed. Micah 5:2, margin; John 1:1-3,10,14; 17:5,24; Colossians 1:13-17; 1 Peter 1: 19, 20. In His many experiences while here on earth, His dual nature (the human with the divine) stood out in marked contrast to each other. For instance, as a result of forty days of fasting in the wilderness "He was afterward an hungered." Matthew 4:2 Yet He was the same being who exercised His divine power to miraculously feed thousands with a few loaves and fishes. Luke 9: 12-17 Again we see His human, side when He was so weary that He fell asleep in the stern of the ship, while the disciples struggled helplessly with the boisterous sea. On being aroused by the words, "Master, care Thou not that we perish?" Christ arose, lifted up His hand and displayed His divine power by rebuking the storm. Mark 4: 36-4 1 We have both the human and the divine of Christ manifested at Jacob's well, when He said to the woman of Samaria, "Give Me to drink," which showed that He was so human as to be suffering from physical thirst. And yet He was so divine that He could say to this same woman: "Whosoever drinks of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life." John 4:7,14

In the biblical record of the experience of the arrest of Christ by the officers of the chief priest we have both His human and His divine natures again revealed. The human was noticeably evident when He permitted Himself to be taken by the officers of the law. In contrast to this, His divinity was exhibited by causing His captors to fall to the ground when He uttered the words "I am He." John 18:4-6

If there were not another inspired statement dealing with this subject, the following one alone ought to settle forever in our minds the question of what kind of flesh it was in which Christ dwelt. "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh." Romans 8:3

There were reasons why Christ took upon Himself human flesh. The first was that He might demonstrate before the holy angels, the worlds on high, and Satan himself that it was possible for one, through the power given Him from God His Father, to live a life of perfect obedience to the commandments of God. "Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise took part of the same; that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil." Hebrews 2:14

The second reason why He became bone of our bone and flesh of our flesh was that He might be able to sympathize with us poor sinful beings in our varied temptations and human weaknesses. "Wherefore in all things it behooved Him to be made like unto His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. For in that He Himself hath suffered being tempted, He is able to succor them that are tempted." Hebrews 2:17,18

When we are tempted, it is a comfort to know that there is One who, having passed through like experiences, understands the power of the enemy and can give not only solace but strength to overcome the temptations. If it were true that Christ had been born of an immaculate mother, it would have rendered Him incapable of participating in our feelings when we are tempted and tried.
In the genealogy of Christ as given in Matthew we find Jesus called the Son of David and also the Son of Abraham. One has to study only the characters of Abraham and David to learn that they were very human and had a tendency to sin. Thus we see what kind of human nature Christ inherited from His progenitors.

If the doctrine of Mariolatry was to be promulgated through the ages, why is it that the Sacred Word records no divine instructions to that effect? If Mary was to be venerated and worshiped, is it not strange that Christ was silent in regard to it? However, there was another woman, Mary of Bethany, whose noble deed has inspired myriads through the ages to pour out their hearts' affections on their Savior by means of gifts and sacrifices. This Mary's deed was immortalized by the statement of Christ when He said: "Verily I say unto you, Where so ever this gospel shall be preached in the whole world, there shall also this, that this woman hath done, be told for a memorial of her." Matthew 26:13

Those who hold the doctrine of Mariolatry will be profoundly astonished when they analyze notable statements made by Christ concerning His mother. "While He yet talked to the people, behold, His mother and His brethren stood without, desiring to speak with Him. Then one said unto Him, Behold, Thy mother and Thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with Thee. But He answered and said unto him that told Him, Who is My mother? And who are My brethren? And He stretched forth His hand toward His disciples, and said, Behold My mother and My brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of My Father which is in heaven, the same is My brother, and sister, and mother."" On another occasion, when a woman said in adulation of His mother, "Blessed is the womb that bare Thee, and the breasts which Thou has sucked," His answer was: "Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it." Luke 11:27,28

Jesus plainly stated that He was no respecter of persons, and that He esteemed in the same way all who obeyed Him.
The Roman Catholic Church lays great stress upon the salutation of the angel Gabriel when he said: " Blessed art thou among women." Luke 1:28 But they overlook the fact that this was not the first time that God conferred a blessing upon a woman. About 1,300 years before the birth of Christ, a similar blessing was pronounced by divine inspiration upon a woman whose name was Jael. "Blessed above women shall Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite be, blessed shall she be above women." Judges 5:24 There is no intimation given in the word of God that this woman who is blessed "above" women was beatified or canonized. After a lapse of hundreds of years, Mary, who is blessed , among women, is exalted by the Roman Church, and millions of worshipers are taught to bow at her shrine.

In answer to the question, "When was the blessed virgin canonized?" a well-known Jesuit periodical says: "The holy mother of God was never formally canonized, as we understand canonization today. Indeed, the first formal canonization probably does not go back farther than the tenth century, when Pope John XV 'solemnly canonized Saint Ulrich of Augsburg in A. D. 993. ... Finally, it was Urban VII who in a bull, published in 1634, reserved exclusively to the Holy See the right of beatification and canonization, which is the rule prevailing to this day. ... Speaking to the book, neither the blessed virgin, John the Baptist, the twelve apostles, and numerous other early martyrs, were ever formally canonized, nor for that matter the archangels, though the cultus of all has been allowed by the [Roman] Church from the earliest times." - The Catholic Mind, January, 1944, Page 61, 62

When the truth of God is misconstrued, the Lord loses His rightful place as the center of worship, and the human mounts the throne. Thus it was in the case of those apostates "who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator." Romans 1:25 A papal doctor has said:

"Saint Basil of Seleucia declares that she [Mary] received this plenitude, that she might thus be a worthy mediator between men and God: 'Hail, full of grace, mediator between God and men, and by whom heaven and earth are brought together and united.' 'Otherwise,' says Saint Lawrence Justinian, 'had not the blessed virgin been full of divine grace, how could she have become the ladder to heaven, the advocate of the world, and the most true mediator between men and God?" - de Liguori, The Glories of Mary, Page 294​

Jesus spoke of Himself, not of His mother, as being the ladder to heaven, saying to Nathaniel:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter you shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man." - John 1:51​

 

[RND]

"The Immaculate Conception?" - continued

Although John was given the guardianship of Mary by Christ, he knew nothing of the supposed honor of her office as mediator and advocate. This his own words testify: "My little children, these things write I unto you, that you sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: and He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." John 19:26,27; 1 John 2:1,2

Neither did the apostle Paul know anything of the supposed intercessory work of Mary, as the following statement indicates: "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time." 1 Timothy 2:5,6 If the communicants of the Roman Catholic Church were to accept the words of the apostle Paul, the following would never be uttered as to Mary:

"Let us then cry out with Saint Thomas of Villanova, '0 Mary, we poor sinners know no other refuge than thee, for thou art our only hope, and on thee we rely for our salvation.' Thou art our only advocate with Jesus Christ; to thee we all turn ourselves." - Alfonsus M. de Liguori, The Glories of Mary, Page 96​

When the plan of redemption was first revealed in the garden of Eden, it carried with it the sentence pronounced upon Satan, and foretold the enmity which Christ would plant in the heart of man against sin. The Lord declared: "I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her Seed; It [in Hebrew, "He"] shall bruise thy head, and thou shall bruise His heel." - Genesis 3:15. The Hebrew text reads literally: "Enmity 1 shall put between thee and between the woman, and between thy seed and between her Seed; He shall crush thee a head, and thou shall crush Him a heel."

We can realize the inexpressible joy and gratitude that filled the hearts of our first parents when they learned that the Son of God would offer Himself as an atonement for their sins. Yes, it took the One who was their Creator to be their Redeemer. The violation of the law of God could not be atoned for by the death of an angel, and much less by a human being. The Roman Catholic Church teaches that it was the woman, and not the promised Seed, who crushed the serpent's head. Here is its teaching:

"It may be fairly alleged that the Bible begins with Mary. When God cursed the serpent, He said, 'I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed'. This prediction was fulfilled, and Mary received the highest dignity possible to a mere creature." - William E. Addis and Thomas Arnold, A Catholic Dictionary, P. 554, Art. "Mary in Scripture."​

Note the difference between the rendering, of Genesis 3:15 in the Authorized Version and in the Douay Version: "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her Seed; It shall bruise thy head, and thou shall bruise His heel." Authorized Version. "I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shall lie in wait for her heel." Douay Version. Is it not doing violence to the text to substitute "she" for "Seed" and "her" for "His"? The Sacred Scriptures expressly declare that the feat of crushing and destroying the devil and his angels is to be done by Christ Himself. "Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise took part of the same; that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil." Hebrews 2:14 "For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil." 1 John 3:8 "The God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly." Romans 16:20

Contrary to the Sacred Scriptures, the papacy exalts Mary, saying:

"It was indeed becoming that the three Divine Persons should preserve Mary from original sin. It was becoming that the Father should do so, because Mary was His first-born daughter. As Jesus was the first-born of God, 'the first-born of every creature,' so also was Mary, the destined mother of God, always considered by Him as His first-born daughter by adoption, and therefore He always possessed her by His grace: 'The Lord possessed me in the beginning of His ways.' For the honor, therefore, of His Son, it was becoming that the Father should preserve His mother from every stain of sin. It was also becoming that He should do so, because He destined this His daughter to crush the head of the infernal serpent, who had seduced man, as we read in Genesis, 'she shall crush thy head.' How, then, could He permit that she should first be the slave of this infernal serpent? Moreover, Mary was also destined to become the advocate of sinners; therefore it was also becoming that God should preserve her from sin, that she might not appear guilty of the same fault of men, for whom she was to intercede." - Alfonsus M. de Liguori, The Glories of Mary, Pages 642, 643​

Much has been written concerning Mary's death, assumption (ascension to heaven), and coronation as queen of heaven. The supposed miracles and supernatural events surrounding her demise cause the death of Christ to appear as a mere passing occurrence, Note carefully the following:

"This glorious death occurred on Friday the 13th of August, three hours before sunset, the age of the blessed mother being seventy years, wanting twenty-six days. This precious death was signalized by many miracles; the sun was eclipsed for a few hours; many birds entered into the dwelling, and by their plaintive cries, seemed to mourn the death of their queen; so remarkable were the evidences of their grief, that many were moved to tears. The whole city was filled with astonishment, and all confessed the power of the Almighty. Many of the sick were healed, and all the souls in purgatory were delivered, that they might accompany their merciful mother to heaven. At the same instant in which the virgin mother expired, three persons who dwelt near her also died, but in the unhappy state of mortal sin. When they appeared before the tribunal of Jesus Christ, the holy mother begged grace and mercy for them; they were allowed to return to life, and having done penance for their sins, happily persevered in grace and were saved." - Joseph A. Boullan, The Life of The Blessed Virgin Mary, Pages 420,42 1​

What happened during the supposed assumption procession from the tomb to heaven is astonishing. It is described thus:

"The magnificent procession departed from the sepulchre chanting celestial melodies, and ascended through the region of the air to the empyreal heaven.... Who is this that seems like the aurora, more beautiful than the moon, bright as the sun, and terrible as an army in battle array? Who is this that comes up from the desert, leaning on her Beloved, and overflowing with delights? Who is this in whom the Divinity itself has found greater complacency than in all other creatures, and whom He has raised above all to the throne of His inaccessible light and majesty? O marvel, never before beheld in heaven! O prodigy of an omnipotent God, who thus glorifies and exalts her!

"Vested with this wonderful glory, the holy virgin arrived at the throne of the Divinity, and the three Divine Persons received her into their eternal and indissoluble embrace. She seemed as if absorbed within the three Divine Persons, and as if submerged in that infinite ocean of the abyss of the Divinity; the saints heard these words of the Eternal Father: 'Our daughter Mary has been elected and chosen by Our eternal will as the only and singular one among all creatures, and she is also the first in Our delights. She has never degenerated from her title of daughter, which in the divine understanding has been given her from all eternity; therefore she has a right to Our eternal kingdom, of which she is to be acknowledged and crowned the legitimate sovereign and queen.' The Incarnate Word said: 'To My true and natural mother belong all the creatures that I have created and redeemed, and all that I possess as king, she must also possess as legitimate queen.' The Holy Ghost said: 'By the title of My only and elected spouse, to which she has corresponded with perfect fidelity, the crown of queen is also due to her for all eternity.'

"After these words the three Divine Persons placed on the august head of the most holy virgin a crown of glory, which far exceeded any that ever has or ever shall be awarded to a creature. At the same instant a voice came from the throne, saying: 'Our friend and Our chosen one among all other creatures, Our kingdom belongs to thee. Thou art the sovereign, the queen and the mistress of the seraphim, the angels Our ministers, and of the entire creation. ... Of the church militant thou art the empress, queen, mistress, protector, advocate and mother. Thou shall be the friend, patroness and protector of all Our friends, the just. Console them, fortify and fill them with every good, if by their devotion they render themselves worthy. Thou art the depository of all Our divine benefits, the treasury of all Our graces. Into thy hands We remit the help and favor of Our grace, so that thou may dispense them; for We will grant nothing to the world but what shall pass through thy hands, and We will refuse nothing which thou may desire to grant. Grace shall be spread abroad on thy lips, for all that thou shall wish and ordain in heaven and on earth; angels and men shall obey thee in all places, because all that is Ours belongs to thee, as thou has always belonged to Us, and thou shall reign with Cs for all eternity."

"For the execution of this eternal decree, the Omnipotent ordered all the heavenly court to render obedience and homage to her as their queen, and they promptly obeyed, acknowledging themselves her servants and vassals, and venerating her with a worship, filial fear, and respectful veneration like to that with which they adore the Lord." - Idem Pages 429-432​

The Roman Church has conferred upon Mary authority that surpasses that of Christ, even going so far as to state that if Satan were to humble himself and seek her aid for salvation, she would be magnanimous enough to grant him pardon and thus convert him. Note this statement:

"The blessed virgin herself revealed to Saint Bridget 'that there is no sinner in the world, however much he may be at enmity with God, who does not return to Him and recover His grace, if he has recourse to her and asks her assistance.' The same Saint Bridget one day heard Jesus Christ address His mother, and say that 'she would be ready to obtain the grace of God for Lucifer himself, if only he humbled himself so far as to seek her aid.' That proud spirit will never humble himself so far as to implore the protection of Mary; but if such a thing were possible, Mary would be sufficiently compassionate, and her prayers would have sufficient power to obtain both forgiveness and salvation for him from God. But that which cannot be verified with regard to the devil is verified in the case of sinners who have recourse to this compassionate mother." - Alfonsus M. de Liguori, The Glories of Mary, Page 100​

After reading all this, should we not be thankful for the Holy Scriptures and the true Mediator, who alone can save the sinner? "For there is one God, and one Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time." 1 Timothy 2:5,6. He became man, incarnated in human flesh, that He might represent us before the throne of the Deity. "Seeing then that we have a great High Priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need." Hebrews 4:14-16. Although Mary was indeed a good woman, as otherwise God would never have entrusted to her care the rearing of Him who was to be our High Priest, it is not she who is to represent us before the throne of God, for "we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." 1 John 2:1. Those who believe the Holy Bible will give Christ His rightful place as the center of all worship. Never will they pay to another the homage that belongs to Him.

 

[MrPolo]

Without fisking the above for errors, suffice it to say it does not address the poetry of hyper-dulia in these writings of saints, nor does it account for the theological understanding of Marian dogmas, which I will copy-paste here (from myself so it doesn't really count as copy-paste!) which I hope helps others understand.

Here is my simple, super-brief, unofficial lay-person's summary:

First, a word on typology
Now the thing about OT types and their NT ante-types, is that the NT version is the superior, fulfilled, improved version. Jesus is the type of Adam (Rm 5:14). As Adam was the first of his kind, so Jesus is the first, better, of His. As Adam brought sin into the world, Jesus removed it. Take the Gospel of John on bread, regarding bread and how the OT type is inferior to the NT type. The manna in the OT gave physical, temporal life. In the NT, spiritual, eternal life. You can see the same regarding baptism in 1 Peter 3. And there are lots of other examples. So that's a super-quick primer on typology.

Mary as Ark of the Covenant
Now here's a Word doc on Mary as Ark compiling ECFs recognizing this parallel. Here is a tidy graph showing the obvious Scriptural parallels.

The Ark was to be made of extremely precise measurements and metal, specifically gold. It carried the Word of the Commandments, the rod of Aaron the priest, and the bread of manna. So too does Mary carry Jesus, the Word, the Priest, and the Bread of Life. Gold is not only a sign of great holiness in the OT, but it is the symbol of holiness in the order of Christ. Precious metals are a symbol of purity from sin. In 1 Corinthians 3, Paul tells us how a man's work can either be of gold, silver, or precious metal or the fleeting substances of hay or straw. The non-good works, sin, will be purged away. Then only the pure gold and silver remains. This is a reference to smelting, known even in the OT as a means to purify (Ez 22:22). So anyway, the Ark is made of this pure metal, and thus, the Church recognized in Mary as the New Ark even greater purity. From the physical to the spiritual, from temporal purity to eternal purity. There are other analogs regarding Mary and the Ark demonstrating similar typology, and perhaps a good article or some books will help.

Mary as New Eve
First, some of the ECFs on this (Cardinal Newman lists some under "Second Eve" heading) (And some more). And here's some of their Scriptural parallels on Mary as Eve organized by my friend on this forum Athanasius.

The typology explained by these many ECFs essentially recognizes both of them as mothers of their respective ages, and Eve is the disobedient mother, and Mary the obedient one. What is important to know about Eve, is that she was created without sin! Just as Adam was. They were without original sin and purity if not for the Fall. But Mary is the superior ante-type of Eve, and thus created without sin in an even greater way. And when she is faced with her choice of yes or no to God, Mary, unlike Eve, says yes.

These ideas are largely why many of the Reformers held Mary to have been Immaculately conceived, or at least that the notion was not contrary to Scripture, and certainly not heretical.

So that is an extremely basic crash course on some of the roots of Mary having been Immaculately conceived. The theology is far, far more exhaustive than this, and includes analyses of the woman in Revelation, the wedding at Cana scene, the foot of the Cross scene, and even the very important theology of Mary as figure of the Church and as Mother of God, and a whole lot more!

 

[RND]

So that is an extremely basic crash course on some of the roots of Mary having been Immaculately conceived.

Mary called Jesus "her Savior."

Luk 1:46 ¶ And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,

Luk 1:47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

If Mary was sinless why would she need a Savior?

 

[RND]

Mary as Ark of the Covenant

I'll just use one example from your chart to demonstrate the twisting of scripture to fit a need:

Chart Example: God the Holy Spirit overshadowed and then indwelled the Ark. The Ark became the dwelling place of the presence of God [Exodus 40:34-35]

Chart Answer: God the Holy Spirit overshadowed and the indwelled Mary. At that time Mary’s womb became the dwelling place of the presence of God [Luke 1:35].


Exd 40:34 ¶ Then a cloud covered the tent of the congregation, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle. Exd 40:35 And Moses was not able to enter into the tent of the congregation, because the cloud abode thereon, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.


The "cloud" didn't "indwell" the Ark of the Covenant it sat upon or, "thereon" the Ark of the Covenant. The cloud "filled" the actual Tabernacle."

 

[Sphinx777]

The Immaculate Conception is, according to Roman Catholic dogma, the conception of Mary, the mother of Jesus without any stain ("macula" in Latin) of original sin. The dogma thus says that, from the first moment of her existence, she was preserved by God from the lack of sanctifying grace that afflicts mankind, and that she was instead filled with divine grace. It is further believed that she lived a life completely free from sin. In the words of Pope Pius XII in Mystici Corporis, "she was free from any personal or hereditary sin". Her immaculate conception in the womb of her mother, by normal sexual intercourse, should not be confused with the doctrine of the virginal conception of her son Jesus.

The feast of the Immaculate Conception, celebrated on December 8, was established as a universal feast in 1476 by Pope Sixtus IV. He did not define the doctrine as a dogma, thus leaving Roman Catholics freedom to believe in it or not without being accused of heresy; this freedom was reiterated by the Council of Trent. The existence of the feast was a strong indication of the Church's belief in the Immaculate Conception, even before its 19th century definition as a dogma.

In the Roman Catholic Church, the Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception is a Holy Day of Obligation, except where conferences of bishops have decided, with the approval of the Holy See, not to maintain it as such. It is a public holiday in some countries where Roman Catholicism is predominant e.g. Italy. In the Philippines, although this is not a public holiday, the predominance of Catholic Schools make it almost a holiday.

The Immaculate Conception was solemnly defined as a dogma by Pope Pius IX in his constitution Ineffabilis Deus, on December 8, 1854. The Roman Catholic Church believes the dogma is supported by Scripture (e.g. Mary's being greeted by Angel Gabriel as "full of grace" or "highly favoured"), as well as either directly or indirectly by the writings of many of the Church Fathers, as well as sensus fidei and often calls Mary the Blessed Virgin (Luke 1:48). Catholic theology maintains that, since Jesus became incarnate of the Virgin Mary, it was fitting that she be completely free of sin for expressing her fiat. (Ott, Fund., Bk 3, Pt. 3, Ch. 2, §3.1.e).

For the Roman Catholic Church the dogma of the Immaculate Conception gained additional significance from the apparitions of Our Lady of Lourdes in 1858. In Lourdes a 14-year-old girl, Bernadette Soubirous, claimed a beautiful lady appeared to her. The lady identified herself as "the Immaculate Conception" and the faithful believe her to be the Blessed Virgin Mary.

In this sense, the dogma of the Immaculate Conception defined by Pope Pius IX is also viewed as a key example of the use of sensus fidelium shared by the faithful and the Magisterium rather than pure reliance on Scripture and tradition. The Vatican quotes in this context Fulgens Corona, where Pius XII supported such a faith:

"If the popular praises of the Blessed Virgin Mary be given the careful consideration they deserve, who will dare to doubt that she, who was purer than the angels and at all times pure, was at any moment, even for the briefest instant, not free from every stain of sin?”

Now, the Roman Catholic tradition has a well established philosophy for the study of the Immaculate Conception and the veneration of the Blessed Virgin Mary via the field of Mariology with Pontifical schools such as the Marianum specifically devoted to this task.

​

 

[RND]

Throughout history, Isis and various forms of goddess worship has played a significant role in our world’s religious and cultural makeup. Today, goddess veneration is still very much alive and well, and images of the goddess–in various forms–can be identified in every state and province.

Inscribed in the temple of Isis; "I, Isis, am all that has been, that is or shall be; No mortal man hath ever me unveiled. The fruit which I have brought forth is the ‘SUN’."

Isis is the "divine mother" of ancient Egypt. She was known as the great goddess of magic and "universal nature," and used her powers to raise her dead (and dismembered) husband Osiris back to life (Osiris was represented as the Sun, he also ruled the underworld). As "Virgin of the World," Isis birthed Horus, the Egyptian god of the sun and moon, day and night. Metaphorically speaking, Isis is the celestial mother of the Sun (son) of god. It was her son, Horus, who eventually killed Typhon, the Egyptian devil. And, according to legend, Isis–mother of all–remains eternally virgin. She is often portrayed "as the virgin with child," and is regularly depicted as one crowned with a lunar orb and the horns of a bull.

Goddess veneration of the "virgin with child" has been a central belief for various societies throughout history, including some aspects of Christianity. Indeed, many leading occultists see striking parallels between the Roman Catholic "Virgin Mary"–the "Queen of Heaven"–and the goddess Isis. And the comparison is startling. Presently, Roman Catholicism holds Mary to be eternally virgin, just as Isis was. Catholicism also contends that Mary was without sin, making her into a type of "god." In fact, there are some who claim that Mary is the "fourth person" within the Trinity. This belief is linked to Catholicism’s claim that Mary now has a direct say in mankind’s salvation through her (Catholic) role of co-redemption and mediation. Hence, the elevated Mary becomes a "goddess" in the Catholic faith, just as Isis was a goddess in the pantheon of Egyptian deities. And just as Isis was (and still is) called "Mother of the World" and "Queen of Heaven," so too Mary is now exalted with these same titles.

While the Roman Catholic/Isis comparison shows a tangible link between Catholicism and the mystery religions, Mary as Biblically understood shows little connection. Yes, Mary was the virgin mother of Jesus, Son of God, but she didn't remain a virgin. Mark 6:3 actually lists four of Jesus’ brothers and mentions sisters as well. Nor was the Biblical Mary sinless. Romans 3:23 makes it clear that "all have sinned"–which would include Mary. The only exception to this rule is found in Jesus Christ (Hebrews 4:15 is one example among many that attests to Jesus’ sinless character).

The Bible makes it clear that Christ’s death and resurrection was a completed act. The Biblical Mary plays no direct role in His work of salvation. As Jesus Himself said, "It is finished." He didn’t say, "It’s finished, subject to the continuing work of Mother Mary."

So how is Isis as a symbol used today? While finding an actual statue of Isis may not be as easy as finding the "all seeing eye," goddess symbols are prevalent throughout America. The great seal of Virginia features the Roman goddess Virtus. The Statue of Liberty is a goddess representation, with her sun-ray spikes an allusion to the headgear of the Colossus of Rhodes, a monument to the Sun-God Helios (interestingly, Auguste Bertholdi, the creator of the Statue of Liberty, was seeking a commission to construct a giant Isis statue holding a torch overlooking the Suez Canal). From the goddess atop the downtown Indianapolis circle monument to the embossed goddess figures upon state and provincial legislative buildings, goddess symbols are well rooted within modern America. And now a group of New Agers has started the "Goddess 2000 Project," which seeks to have a goddess statue or other depiction "on every block."

Internationally, the Fellowship of Isis–an organization "dedicated to honoring the religion of the Goddess in Her many forms"–has chapters across Germany, the United Kingdom, and the US. It’s global headquarters is located in Clonegal Castle, Ireland. Presently, the Fellowship of Isis offers an entire program of correspondence studies, rites, rituals, prayers and degrees to those wishing to advance within the goddess mystery religions.

The secret doctrine of Isis, her mysteries and powers are, according to Manly P. Hall, purposely hid from the average person. According to occult sages, properly understanding the spiritual depths of Isis requires initiation, study, and commitment. Hall explains in The Secret Teachings of All Ages, "…the great spiritual truths hidden from the world by the ignorance of the world, and the keys of the secret doctrines of the ancient philosophers, are all symbolized by the Virgin Isis. Veiled from head to foot, she reveals her wisdom only to the tried and initiated few who have earned the right to enter her sacred presence…"

The figure of Isis can also be used to manipulate the black arts. Hall states, "The figure of Isis is sometimes used to represent the occult and magical arts, such as necromancy, invocation, sorcery…" Hall continues by linking Isis and the order of Freemasonry, "In one of the myths concerning her, Isis is said to have conjured the invincible God of Eternities, Ra, to tell her his secret and sacred name, which he did. This name is equivalent to the Lost Word of Masonry. By means of this Word, a magician can demand obedience from the invisible and superior deities."

Obviously, the importance of Isis and the accompanying symbolism of goddess adoration is vital to understanding our society’s obsession with goddess worship and the occult in general. In our attempt as Christians to comprehend the roots of the New Age movement, we must be aware that Satan has tirelessly thrust the deities of ancient Egypt upon mankind for thousands of years. Ultimately though, it doesn’t really matter if "she" is called Isis, Diana, Virtus, Cybele, Rhea, or Mother Mary, the concept is always the same–the lifting up of a pagan goddess as a replacement for the true God.

"I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before Me." Exodus 20:2-3


http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/2002/carl-teichrib/5isis.htm

 

[Sphinx777]

Mary is Isis/Venus?


​

 

[RND]

http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/05/teichrib/goddess.htm

Goddess worship is alive and well. Berit Kjos, a good friend and author, relates numerous stories of goddess-inspiration making its way into mainstream Christian culture. In her excellent book, A Twist of Faith, she describes a visit to her husband’s prairie hometown,

"You probably wouldn’t expect to find goddesses in a conservative farming community in North Dakota. I didn’t. But one day when visiting my husbands rural hometown, a neighbor told us that a new bookstore had just opened in the parsonage of the old Lutheran Church. 'You should go see it,' she urged.

I agreed, so I drove to a stately white church, walked to the parsonage next door, and rang the bell. The pastor’s wife opened the door and led me into a large room she had changed into a bookstore, leaving me to browse. Scanning the shelves along the walls, I noticed familiar authors such as Lynn Andrews who freely blends witchcraft with Native American rituals, New Age self-empowerment, and other occult traditions to form her own spirituality.

Among the multicultural books in the children’s section, one caught my attention. Called Many Faces of the Great Goddess, it was a 'coloring book for all ages.' Page after page sported voluptuous drawings of famed goddesses. Nude, bare-breasted, pregnant, or draped in serpents, they would surely open the minds of young artists to the lure of "sacred" sex and ancient myths.

Driving home, I pondered today’s fast-spreading shift from Christianity to paganism. Apparently, myths and spiritualized sensuality sound good to those who seek new revelations and "higher" truths. Many of the modern myths picture deities that fit somewh ere between a feminine version of God and the timeless goddesses pictured in earth-centered stories and cultures." (A Twist of Faith, pp. 10-11)
​

While the New Age Movement has placed goddess worship into a contemporary setting, it’s historical context stretches back millennium.

In the ancient Egyptian mystery religions, Isis was venerated as a universal goddess. Barbara Watterson, author of Gods of Ancient Egypt, notes that Isis was "known as ‘The Goddess of Many Names’ and indeed she is found as a form of every great female deity from Nut and Hathor to the Greek moon goddess Astarte." [p. 72]

Eminent author and historian, Will Durant, writes of this Isis-goddess connection,

"Profound, too, was the myth of Isis, the Great Mother. She was not only the loyal sister and wife of Osiris; in a sense she was greater than he, for— like woman in general—she had conquered death through love. Nor was she merely the black soil of the Delta, fertilized by the touch of Osiris-Nile, and making all Egypt rich with her fecundity. She was, above all, the symbol of that mysterious creative power which had produced the earth and every living thing…She represented in Egypt—as Kali, Ishtar and Cyble represented in Asia, Demeter in Greece, and Ceres in Rome—the original priority and independence of the female principle in creation... (The Story of Civilization, Volume 1, p. 200)
​

"Great Mother," "Queen of Heaven," "Mother of God." All of these titles have been attached to Isis. Ishtar too, the Babylonian goddess, had similar titles. Moreover, the lines between the various goddesses of antiquity blur, with each mirroring the other in terms of purpose, symbolism, and meaning.

Commenting on this universal goddess aspect, Professor Cesar Vidal writes,

"The importance of mother goddesses in the various mythologies of paganism is so evident that even a shallow description could easily fill entire volumes…The mother goddess received different names and external appearances, but, in substance, she was always the same. In Egypt, she was called Isis. In Crete, she was represented as a mother who made friendly contact with snakes. In Greece she was known as Demeter, and in Rome she was worshiped as Cybele, the Magna Mater (Great Mother), a mother goddess of Phrygian origin. There is practically no ancient culture that did not worship this type of deity." ( The Myth of Mary, pp.74, 75)
​

Even the ancient Hebrews succumbed to goddess worship. In Jeremiah chapters 7 and 44, we find God chastising the Israelites for worshiping "the Queen of Heaven," baking cakes to her, offering sacrifices, and purposely choosing to follow the Queen of Heaven rather than Himself.

Our modern culture likewise has a propensity to following the "Queen of Heaven." The New Age Movement has been a real force in this, bringing the Gaia concept to the forefront—the idea that the Earth is a living organism, a "hypothesis" intrinsically linked to the goddess movement and "Mother Earth."

Science writer Lawrence E. Joseph explains,

"Gaia’s closest cousin is Terra, the Roman Earth goddess; both are kin to Isis of the Egyptians, Kwan Yin of the Chinese, Lakshmi of the Hindus, Yemanja of many African peoples, Shekinah of the Jews from the days of the cabbalah, the Changing Woman of the Navajo, and many others, including Mother Nature, who at one time or another has appeared or occurred to almost everyone. All are sublime fem ale Earth deities, givers of life, wisdom, pleasure, and death." (Gaia: The Growth of an Idea, p. 224)
​

As alluded to in the beginning of this article, Christianity isn’t immune to the allure of the goddess. In 1993, at the Re-Imaging Conference in Minneapolis, Minnesota, 2000 women from a variety of protestant denominations were introduced to Sophia, the goddess personification of "Divine Wisdom." Furthermore, this particular event, which included creating a "sacred space" and Sophia invocations, received funding from a number of major protestant/evangelical church bodies [for more on this event, see A Twist of Faith].

"Mother Earth," too, can be found in our modern church culture—especially through Earth Day celebrations within the Christian community (See Goddess Earth by Samantha Smith and Dave Hunt's Occult Invasion: The Subtle Seduction of the World and Church).

But goddess influence within churches goes beyond Mother Earth and Sophia. The biblical figure of Mary has been erroneously elevated to a goddess status by Roman Catholic theologians. She is known as the Queen of Heaven, Mother of God, Eternal Virgin, Queen of Peace, Our Mother, Lady of the Good Death, Co-mediatrix, and Blessed Mother. Thousands of shrines around the world commemorate her. Visions, apparitions, visitations, and channeled messages accompany the mystical experiences of her followers.

Cesar Vidal elaborates,

"The idea of the universal motherhood of Mary, which does not appear historically until the 11th century, has a much greater connection with paganism than with Scripture. The same can be said of the representation of Mary with the divine child. This concept was also unknown…in the first centuries of Christian ity.

…it is especially significant that Mary worship, which we find in Catholicism and in the Eastern churches, does not stem at any point from biblical concepts, but from the absorption of pagan theologies like those present in the myths of Isis, Demeter and Cybele." ( The Myth of Mary, p. 86, 89)
​

Concerning the pagan goddess influence within the Roman concept of "Mary," historian Will Durant draws a similar conclusion to that of Vidal. Christian apologist Dave Hunt (see Occult Invasion), along with a host of other historians and researchers, also recognize this basic linkage. Even occult sources such as H.P. Blavatsky [Isis Unveiled, volume II] and Manly P. Hall [The Secret Teachings of All Ages] attest to this goddess Roman-Mary interconnection. Sadly, this Romanized-paganized Mary is now being embraced by some within Protestant circles [see T.A. McMahon’s article in the October 2000 issue of The Berean Call].

Detailing the broader New Age-goddess/feminist influence within church and society, Berit Kjos writes,

"…This new spiritual movement is transforming our churches as well as our culture. It touches every family that reads newspapers, watches television, and sends children to community schools. It is fast driving our society beyond Christianity, beyond humanism —even beyond relativism— toward new global beliefs and values. No one is immune from its subtle pressures and silent promptings. That it parallels other social changes and global movements only speeds the transformation. Yet, most Christians— like the proverbial frog—have barely noticed.

This feminist movement demands new deities or, at least, a re-thinking of the old ones. The transformation starts with self, some say, and women can’t re-invent themselves until they shed the old shackles. So the search for a 'more relevant' religion requires new visions of God: images that trade holiness for tolerance, the heavenly for the earthly, and the God who is higher than us for a god who is us.

The most seductive images are feminine. They may look like postcard angels, fairy godmothers, Greek earth goddess, radiant New Age priestesses, or even a mythical Mary, but they all promise unconditional love, peace, power, and personal transcendence. To many, they seem too good to refuse." [A Twist of Faith, pp. 9-10]

The point that Mrs. Kjos makes is essential to understanding our times: Christianity is facing a paradigm shift of global proportions, and the goddess thrust of the New Age Movement is an important facet of this spiritual and societal-wide change.

In recognizing the impact that this alternative spiritual reality has on our cultural makeup—including its bearing on churches and Christianity—it behooves us to consider the words of Ephesians 6:10-13,

"Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might. Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. There take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand." [Ephesians 6:10-13, NKJV]


​

http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/05/teichrib/goddess.htm

 

[Montalban]

And some Catholics are pushing for Mary to be declared a co-redepmtrix/co-redeemer

 

[MrPolo]

The missed theology in this thread has inspired me to change my tagline. I wonder how many will get it?

 

[Standing Up]

I'll just use one example from your chart to demonstrate the twisting of scripture to fit a need:

Chart Example: God the Holy Spirit overshadowed and then indwelled the Ark. The Ark became the dwelling place of the presence of God [Exodus 40:34-35]

Chart Answer: God the Holy Spirit overshadowed and the indwelled Mary. At that time Mary’s womb became the dwelling place of the presence of God [Luke 1:35].


Exd 40:34 ¶ Then a cloud covered the tent of the congregation, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle. Exd 40:35 And Moses was not able to enter into the tent of the congregation, because the cloud abode thereon, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.


The "cloud" didn't "indwell" the Ark of the Covenant it sat upon or, "thereon" the Ark of the Covenant. The cloud "filled" the actual Tabernacle."

You may like this.

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Christ is our ark, rising out from the dead as Sabbath the 16th ended, resting on the 17th forward as Noah's ark rested on the 17th onward (Gen 8:4). That month was then changed to the first month of the calendar (Ex. 12:2).

Those who believe Christ rose Sunday sunrise will miss this significance or as MrPolo said, the missed theology.

 

[DD2008]

The immaculate conception of Mary dogma of the RCC was formed based on many years of misunderstading the federal headship of Adam and imputed sin. Rome thinks Mary needs to be sinless to make Christ sinless, so they invented the dogma.

That isn't true, however. Sin is imputed through the male seed not the female host. Since Christ's Father is God he didn't have original sin imputed to him and couldn't have died unless he took on the guilt of sin himself, which he did voluntarily to fulfill the will of his Father.

Romans 5:18-19 ESV
18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. 19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.

2 Corinthians 5:21 ESV
21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Isaiah 53:10 ESV
10 Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him;
he has put him to grief;
when his soul makes an offering for guilt,
he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days;
the will of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

 

[Montalban]

The missed theology in this thread has inspired me to change my tagline. I wonder how many will get it?

The co-redeptrix thing is almost like Mary part of the Trinity - I guess it would then be a Qudrinity?

 

[Montalban]

The immaculate conception of Mary dogma of the RCC was formed based on many years of misunderstading the federal headship of Adam and imputed sin. Rome thinks Mary needs to be sinless to make Christ sinless, so they invented the dogma.

When I was at school (I went to a Catholic school) it was explained that Jesus, being pure had to reside in a pure vessel. Which lead me to think that if Mary had to be a pure vessel to hold Jesus, then wouldn't her mother also have to be pure to hold 'pure' Mary, and so on back through a long line of women to Eve.

 

[MrPolo]

The co-redeptrix thing is almost like Mary part of the Trinity - I guess it would then be a Qudrinity?

Um, no, not like that.

 

[Sphinx777]

And some Catholics are pushing for Mary to be declared a co-redepmtrix/co-redeemer

Co-Redemptrix in Roman Catholic Mariology refers to the role of the Blessed Virgin Mary in the redemption process. It is a separate concept from Mediatrix.

The concept of Co-redemptrix refers to an indirect or unequal but important participation by the Blessed Virgin Mary in redemption. She gave free consent to give life to the redeemer, to share his life, to suffer with him under the cross and to sacrifice him for the sake of the redemption of humankind.

Co-Redemptrix has not been formally defined as a dogma, although petitions for declaring it (along with Mediatrix) a dogma have been submitted to the pope by various Cardinals and bishops. It would become a fifth Marian dogma if approved by the Holy See.

 

[Montalban]

Um, no, not like that.

They promote it:
Professor Mark Miravalle of Franciscan University in Steubenville, OH, initiated a formal petition drive in 1993 during a Marian conference at that university. It asks the Pope to make infallible statement that would officially elevate Mary, the mother of Jesus, to the status of co-redeemer. More than six million signatures from 148 countries have reached the Vatican as of the end of the year 2000, asking that Pope John Paul II infallibly declare a new dogma: "That the Virgin Mary is a co-redeemer with Jesus and co-operates fully with her son in the redemption of humanity." If this were done, "she would be a vastly more powerful figure, something close to the fourth member of the Holy Trinity and the primary female face through which Christians experience the divine." 3 Miravalle's petition has received support from Mother Theresa, 550 bishops, Cardinal John O'Connor and 41 other cardinals (including at least 12 cardinals in Rome). If the dogma is declared infallibly, it would pronounce Mary as "Co-Redemptrix [co-redeemer], Mediatrix [mediator] of All Graces, and Advocate for the People of God." It would require all Roman Catholics to believe that:
Mary is co-redemptrix with Jesus. She participates in people's redemption.
Mary is mediatrix and has the power to grant all graces.
Mary is the advocate for the people of God and has the authority to influence God's judgments.

If the dogma is infallibly declared, many feel that, in the words of Father Rene Laurentin, it would be the equivalent of launching "bombs" at Protestants. Father Laurentin is a French monk and the world's leading Mary scholar. He believes that: "Mary is the model of our faith but she is not divine. There is no mediation or co-redemption except in Christ. He alone is God." Raising the status of Mary would further acerbate the split between the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches. Ecumenical activity would be negatively affected. There is speculation that a schism might develop over the issue within the Roman Catholic church. There may be a renewed debate over the role of the pope's power in the church. 5,6
The Virgin Mary as co-redemptrix, mediatrix and advocate

see also
VoxPopuli.org Old Site - See details for the new site at FifthMarianDogma.com

They define it:
Gibsons Passion and Mary "Co-redemptrix" - Dr. Mark Miravalle

http://www.consecration.com/passion.html

They defend it:
Mary Co-Redemptrix: A Response to 7 Common Objections

 

[RND]

When I was at school (I went to a Catholic school) it was explained that Jesus, being pure had to reside in a pure vessel. Which lead me to think that if Mary had to be a pure vessel to hold Jesus, then wouldn't her mother also have to be pure to hold 'pure' Mary, and so on back through a long line of women to Eve.

Then there's the thought that must be considered that Jesus was indeed born with the nature of Adam, which according to the apostles, He was.

Phl 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Jesus didn't get His sinlessness from His mother He got it from the very deep and continual connection He had with the Father. The whole notion of "original sin" completely marginalizes this relationship.

 

[Montalban]

Then there's the thought that must be considered that Jesus was indeed born with the nature of Adam, which according to the apostles, He was.

Phl 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Jesus didn't get His sinlessness from His mother He got it from the very deep and continual connection He had with the Father. The whole notion of "original sin" completely marginalizes this relationship.

Jesus got sinlessness by being God. He can't have sin because sin an act of separating oneself from God, and God doesn't separate himself from himself.

I agree Jesus had the nature of Man, but Man as we're meant to be, not as we are. We are meant to be with God, not separated from him. And, Jesus is both fully God and fully man.