The IJ and the presentation of blood

[tall73]

The following is to clarify my biggest issue with the IJ. Since Jim, etc. seem to wonder why I left the ministry over this issue I want to spell out the part that I thought most problematic.


In the book of Hebrews we see again and again the idea that Jesus is superior in every way. He is superior to angels, to Moses, His covenant is better, He has a better priesthood, He offers better blood, etc.

In the course of these comparisons the relation of type to fulfillment is often raised. In several instances all admit to a certain discontinuity between the fulfillment and the old testament symbols. This is at times pre-figured by the OT itself. Examples include the change of the covenant, foreshadowed in Jeremiah, and the change of priesthood, foreshadowed in the Melchizedek material.

Perhaps the most far reaching though, to my mind, is the change from many sacrifices in the OT type to the one sacrifice in the case of Jesus, once for all.

The fact that all the sacrifices are summed up in one sacrifice can’t help but change aspects of timing in the fulfillment. In other words the type can’t hold true in all respects.

Hebrews alludes to a number of sacrifices:

a. Red heifer, 9:13

b. Inauguration, 9:15, and others, argued at length by the comparison to Moses.

c. daily offering, 10:11, 12

d. Day of Atonement, 9:25, etc. argued at some length by the contrasts with the earthly yearly ministration

All seem to agree that these were fulfilled by Jesus’ once for all sacrifice. There is only one sacrifice, so it must also fulfill the Day of Atonement sacrifice.

However, Jesus is not just described as making the sacrifice but offering it, presenting it in God’s presence. He ministered the blood.

Here are some of the places that indicate a presentation of the sacrifice in God's presence:


Heb 9:11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation)
Heb 9:12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.


Heb 9:14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.

Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.


Heb 9:25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own,


Heb 9:26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.


Heb 9:27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,


Heb 9:28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.


Heb 10:11 And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.

Heb 10:12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,

Heb 10:13 waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet.
Heb 10:14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.


The emphasis is on both a single death and a single presentation in God's presence, including the blood. The futility of the earthly service is not repeated in the heavenly. Only one sacrifice and one presentation or offering of the sacrifice was necessary.

The text makes it plain that there is one offering that perfects the people that cleanses sin, that brings in eternal redemption etc.

In 1:7 sins are seen to be cleansed:

Heb 1:3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.

If there was a one time, and one time only presentation or offering then it must take in all the offerings of all the sacrifices ever made in the earthly. Hence the reference to the various ones in Hebrews itself (red heifer, daily, yearly, inaugural etc.)

In fact, we see no issue with this in regards to the other feasts, though it causes some differences in what we would expect from the type.

The Passover was fulfilled by Jesus death on the day of Passover. The wave sheaf, according to Paul in I Cor. 15 should be applied to Jesus resurrection on the day after the Sabbath after the Passover. Pentecost was fulfilled by the outpouring of the Spirit on the day of Pentecost and the first harvest of the believers.

Each of these feasts in the OT required a sacrifice, according to Leviticus 23. We have no problem stating that the one sacrifice and presentation of Christ’s was sufficient in each of these cases, though of course He did not die on the wave sheaf day or Pentecost, and he was not presented on the Passover etc. We recognize that the fulfillment shows one sacrifice, and that there cannot then be corresponding sacrifices on each day. Instead we see the essential meaning of the feast for what it is, but see the sacrifice as fulfilled in Jesus actions on the cross and in heaven at His ascension.

It could also be noted that we have what appears to be another instance of discontinuity in that the wave sheaf for example is performed before the inauguration of the temple itself.

However, we take a different policy in regards to the sacrifice of the Day of Atonement. We recognize that the cross is the fulfillment of the sacrifice. But we do not seem to acknowledge that the once for all offering of it also included the once for all offering of the Day of Atonement blood. And yet, I cannot escape the notion that Jesus indeed fulfilled the type there too. Jesus offered blood in God’s presence, once for all, in contrast with the earthly high priest’s ongoing, futile ministrations, year after year.


Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.

Heb 9:25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own,

Heb 9:26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Heb 9:27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,

Heb 9:28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.



Jesus fulfilled the cleansing and the presentation of blood. The rest of the day of atonement ritual--the azazel--is not spelled out, here or in the rest of the NT. We are left to infer the meaning from the types themselves. Therefore I cannot be dogmatic on that point. However, it may be that the azazel portion has reference to the great day of judgment, which would preserve the basic meaning of the feast and its timing. In any case, the presentation of blood is spelled out as having happened at Jesus' ascension, just as it did for EVERY other sacrifice.

The ministration of the blood, as with all the other feasts, already happened. Because there is only ONE once for all sacrifice and offering of that sacrifice.


Again we see the same in Hebrews 10.

Heb 10:11 And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.

Heb 10:12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,

Heb 10:13 waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet.

Heb 10:14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.


Here again we see the single sacrifice, the single offering for all time and the resulting perfection which could never come from the earthly. The sitting down of Christ seems to represent more than just station or kingly function, though certainly it does mean that. But the sitting here is contrasted with the preceding phrase “every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.”


The sitting is an indication that this High Priest did what the other priests could never do. He completed once for all the offering of the sacrifice. The sacrifice did take away sins. There was no need for an ongoing ministry year after year. There was no need for further blood presentation.

This is precisely what we say didn’t happen. We say that Jesus continues for centuries fulfilling the type of the presentation of blood in Lev. 16. Hebrews says He offered once for all time and sat down.

To me I can’t escape the notion that Christ fulfilled the presentation of blood indicated in the type in Leviticus 16.

In the type once the high priest had made the sacrifice of the goat he would apply the blood in the Most Holy Place and the Holy Place, etc. and then he was said to have made an end of atoning for these.

The next step was to leave the sanctuary and go through the azazel goat portion of the service.

Jesus, at His ascension, is clearly portrayed as presenting His sacrifice in God’s presence, offering it once for all for cleansing. He completed the part dealing with the cleansing of sin. Therefore, to my mind, the next part for Him to do in the type is the portion that happens OUTSIDE of the temple—the scapegoat and the final bearing away of sin.

If that is true then the timing of the sacrifice and presentation of blood in the Day of Atonement fulfillment would be the same as in all the other feasts. It was completed at the cross and ascension.

It seems that we as Adventists have complicated the OT type by reading in what is not there. We say that the cleansing of the sanctuary is a removal of records of sin from the books. Try as I might I can't find any record of books in the description of the Lord's goat sacrifice in Leviticus 16. But I do find a cleansing application of blood for removing uncleanness and transgression of all the people. And I also find that in Hebrews again we see an application of Jesus sacrifice for cleansing, in Day of Atonement language.

This is a straight-forward fulfillment of the type. Jesus already completed that part of the Day of Atonement type. And that is the portion of the Day of Atonement type that we associate with the investigative judgment and cleansing.

It is quite simple in one regard. If Jesus sacrifice was once for all time, and the ministration of it was once for all time, then there can be no further ministration of the blood. That was already fulfilled.

 

[tall73]

Here is a more detailed description of my view:


My view is that Jesus,

A. Entered the equivalent of the Most Holy Place at ascension and sat down.

B. Jesus fulfilled the portion of the day of atonement service relating to the cleansing by application of blood.

A. On Jesus entering the Most Holy Place, first I should make it clear that I am not sure there is a two compartment sanctuary in heaven. Hebrews says Christ entered “heaven itself which suggests that the two apartments were symbols of something greater and that all of heaven is the true. But whether there are two compartments or not I see Christ entering into the equivalent of the MHP. Here are the evidences I see:

1. He inaugurated and all admit that inauguration involved all of the temple and the temple furniture, requiring Moses to go into the MHP.

2. Jesus is said to have gone into God’s presence, sitting down at His right hand.


In the earthly type despite the flexibility of the term "before the Lord", God made it clear where His presence was most completely manifested.


Exo 25:21 And you shall put the mercy seat on the top of the ark, and in the ark you shall put the testimony that I shall give you. 22 There I will meet with you, and from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubim that are on the ark of the testimony, I will speak with you about all that I will give you in commandment for the people of Israel.

Lev 16:2 and the LORD said to Moses, "Tell Aaron your brother not to come at any time into the Holy Place inside the veil, before the mercy seat that is on the ark, so that he may not die. For I will appear in the cloud over the mercy seat.

Num 7:89 And when Moses went into the tent of meeting to speak with the LORD, he heard the voice speaking to him from above the mercy seat that was on the ark of the testimony, from between the two cherubim; and it spoke to him.


3. There is the question of why the author would even raise the high point of the Hebrews cultic year if he did not intend to show that Christ was better. That was the whole point of the book to show how Jesus went beyond Moses, beyond angels, His covenant was better, His blood was better, His priesthood was better, etc. By focusing special attention in his introduction of the earthly sanctuary on the Day of Atonement he sets up the later section where he details the fulfillment.

4. There is Day of Atonement imagery used.

Even Richard Davidson, who is probably the strongest inauguration proponent, is constrained to see at least one direct reference to the day of atonement:

I agree with Young that Hebrews 9:7 and 9:25 refer to Day of Atonement, because of the clear references to “once a year” and “every year” respectively.
Inauguration or Day of Atonement? Andrews University Seminary Studies, Spring 2002, pg. 79


5. The phrase “within the veil” which has been seen by some to be a reference to the Day of Atonement or the inauguration, but is admitted by most to be used consistently in the LXX in reference to entering the second veil, is another evidence, but since both Day of Atonement language and Inauguration language are used already it doesn’t add much to the argument. Therefore I won’t belabor the point other than to say that most Adventist scholars now admit this is a reference to entrance into the Most Holy, though some postulate just to inaugurate and then leave.

B. Jesus fulfilled the portion of the day of atonement service relating to the cleansing by application of blood.

As alluded to above the author makes reference to the Day of Atonement early in chapter 9.

Heb 9:6 These preparations having thus been made, the priests go regularly into the first section, performing their ritual duties,
Heb 9:7 but into the second only the high priest goes, and he but once a year, and not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the unintentional sins of the people.

Later in chapter 9 after speaking of the red heifer, the inauguration etc. he leads into the one section that all seem constrained to admit uses day of atonement imagery or language. Adventists have tried to resolve this in two main ways. Richard Davidson represents the modern inauguration view, and resolves the issue by saying that the language has an uncertain time element in regards to the necessity of cleansing of heavenly things, and ties into the later part, regarding Christ coming again not to bear sin, to point to it being future.

William Johnsson takes another approach, though not exclusive, as both incorporate it, saying that the emphasis is on the death of Christ, not the Day of Atonement ritual. It was the once for all sacrifice that mattered.

But the issue is that Christ is seen not just DYING in Hebrews but presenting the blood, in fulfillment of the type. The once for all sacrifice included the blood ministration in God’s presence, and is put in Day of Atonement language.

So there are two main issues to deal with.

a. Timing of cleansing—future or past.

b. Did Jesus offer the blood in God’s presence, or was the emphasis merely on His death?

They are so related that I will attempt to answer them at the same time. In doing so I will look at the texts that relate to Jesus’ offering in Hebrews 9 and 10 with the question in mind of what is the timing and whether the offering included the ministration of blood. Please note that I do not think Christ ONLY fulfilled the Day of Atonement imagery. Nor am I certain that He completed all of it at that time. The New Testament does not ever spell out the fulfillment of the azazel, and so we are left to inference from the type. But the author makes it clear that He DID complete the once for all sacrifice—EVERY sacrifice in the OT type. That would include the Day of Atonement sacrifice. My main point in this is that He did not just die but MINISTERED The blood once for all, and then sat down, having obtained cleansing for sin. In other words He in one death and ministration fulfilled the sacrificial portion of all feasts, the daily. the red heifer, the inauguration—everything.


Hebrews 9:11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation)
Hebrews 9:12 He entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.


Now where was He entering? I noted above a number of indications that He entered not only the sanctuary, which is clearly indicated, but that He entered into the equivalent of the Most Holy Place. Here the phrase is directly related to the earlier description of such entry.

Heb 9:7 but into the second only the high priest goes, and he but once a year, and not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the unintentional sins of the people.

Jesus entered by means of the blood. Blood was required to go into the Most Holy Place, into God's presence under the old covenant. Here Jesus is contrasted with the earthly high priest, not taking in limited animal sacrifice but entering by means of his own blood. This then involves not only the sacrifice but the blood of the sacrifice presented before God. It is using day of atonement language. And this entering by means of blood is in the past tense, indicated by εἰσῆλθεν in the aorist.



Heb 9:23 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.
Heb 9:25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own,
Heb 9:26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.


This appearance includes ENTERING and "not offering himself repeatedly as the high priest ENTERS the sanctuary EVERY YEAR."

Now the offering of the high priest every year INCLUDED the entering with blood. So did Jesus' offering. Jesus’ offering, including the entering with blood, was not done "repeatedly". It was done once for all. Also it says that Jesus appeared in God’s presence. This is treated above more thoroughly.

Now, what is the timing of this entry? Verse 23 is in fact ambiguous as some of our scholars have pointed out.

Heb 9:23 ᾿Ανάγκη οὖν τὰ μὲν υποδείγματα των εν τοις ουρανοις τούτοις καθαρίζεσθαι, αυτὰ δὲ τὰ επουράνια κρείττοσιν θυσίαις παρὰ ταύτας.



καθαριζω (To cleanse) is in the infinitive. The main verb is an assumed “be” verb. The point of the argument doesn’t really require timing. It is arguing that the type requires fulfillment—things must be cleansed with blood. In the OT type the earthly was cleansed with blood. Therefore the heavenly things must be cleansed.

However, the next verse does not indicate a future action. Nor can we jump over verse 24 –27 to look at the future events referenced in verse 28 without dealing with the tenses of those verses and their relation to his previous argument.


Heb 9:23 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.

Verse 24 continues the argument of the preceding section. This is picked up in the English “for”. He is now showing HOW the cleansing occurred, arguing that everything is cleansed with blood, and so was the heavenly. The English for is the translation of γαρ.

Jesus went into the true tabernacle, heaven itself, and appeared in God’s presence. This is parallel to the entrance of the high priest into God’s presence once per year. The ENTERED in this case is again past tense, εἰσῆλθεν. This then orients the timing of the entering with blood and associated activities.

Verses 25-26 make this even more clear through day of atonement references:


Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.
Heb 9:25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own,
Heb 9:26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.


1. Entered (earlier said to be once for all and with blood)
2. in the presence of God, parallel to the Day of Atonement
3. High Priest, who had a distinctive role on the Day of Atonement
4. Every year, reference to the yearly role
5. blood not his own, the high priest had to do this, but Jesus did not. It refers back direcly to verse 7 again: Heb 9:7 but into the second only the high priest goes, and he but once a year, and not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the unintentional sins of the people.
6. Put away sin.

Here Jesus is directly compared to the yearly offering. He offered HIMSELF as the earthly high priest enters the holy places every year with other blood. He entered in by means of His own blood. Jesus did not just die as the sacrifice but ministered the blood. He ministered it in our behalf. That part of the type is fulfilled.


Heb 10:11 And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.
Heb 10:12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,
Heb 10:13 waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet.


Here we have reference to the daily priestly activity. But again, Jesus one time offering fulfills it too. The contrast is with the priest who OFFERS the same sacrifices. Christ also offered the sacrifice FOR ALL TIME. Again what did the OFFERING of the sacrifice entail? Both death and presentation were included in the offerings. Adventists have long understood this. We accept that Jesus fulfilled the other sacrifices AND appear to accept that He ministered the blood for them. But they were all one offering. He died and presented that blood for all time.

Here again I will note the sitting down. It was in contrast with the earthly high priests' standing, offering continually. It has in view their daily activities, again and again, never actually taking away sin. They never finished.

But Christ made one sacrifice and sat down—in contrast with the priests' endless duties and standing. He sat at the right hand of God, indicating that He is reigning with him. But the author also contrasts it with the standing of the priest. Christ presented His one sacrifice and now we can approach Him boldly at the throne of grace to find help in time of need (throne of grace could also be an indirect parallel to the mercy seat). He sat down, indicating a cessation of the need to continually STAND to offer sacrifices. Obviously this does not mean that He never stands nor is it truly a physical relationship in that sense. The point is the contrast of an incomplete and finished work.

Now what was the timing here? I suppose this is less disputed since the text is dealing with the daily. But it is in the past, εκαθισεν.
Now let us look at another aspect of these verses. What are the RESULTS of the offering?


Heb 9:12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.

Heb 9:26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Heb 10:11 And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.
Heb 10:12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God
Heb 10:13 waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet.
Heb 10:14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.


The results were “eternal redemption”, “put away sin”, “take away sin” (argued by way of contrast), “sacrifice for sin”, “perfected for all time.”

Now, do those type of results which can be summed up in forgiveness or atonement happen just by the death of the victim or also by the presentation?

The rites for the sin offering note that the blood was used to make atonement. The sin offering is important because it is particularly said to deal with forgiveness and atonement, as did Jesus’ sacrifice.

Lev 6:30 But no sin offering shall be eaten from which any blood is brought into the tent of meeting to make atonement in the Holy Place; it shall be burned up with fire.


The ministration of the blood was part of the process.

Again notice in chapter 4 of Leviticus:

Lev 4:27 "If anyone of the common people sins unintentionally in doing any one of the things that by the LORD's commandments ought not to be done, and realizes his guilt,
Lev 4:28 or the sin which he has committed is made known to him, he shall bring for his offering a goat, a female without blemish, for his sin which he has committed.
Lev 4:29 And he shall lay his hand on the head of the sin offering and kill the sin offering in the place of burnt offering.
Lev 4:30 And the priest shall take some of its blood with his finger and put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering and pour out all the rest of its blood at the base of the altar.
Lev 4:31 And all its fat he shall remove, as the fat is removed from the peace offerings, and the priest shall burn it on the altar for a pleasing aroma to the LORD. And the priest shall make atonement for him, and he shall be forgiven.

The presentation is included in the process bringing about forgiveness.

Now let’s look at another results indicator:

Heb 1:3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification (καθαρισμὸ&#957 for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.


Jesus not only died but “made purification” or cleansing, a cognate of καθαριζω, seen earlier in verse 23 in reference to the necessity of cleansing the heavenly things. Jesus brought that cleansing. This was accomplished not just at the sacrifice but at the presentation. The reference to cleansing again suggests the fulfillment of the offering of blood on the Day of Atonement.

So if the once for all sacrifice was made and presented, how can we claim a later ministration of blood in 1844? It does not fit. The type was already fulfilled.

 

[tall73]

Daniel and Revelation committee comments on the Day of Atonement allusions.

William Johnsson in "Day of Atonement Allusions". He lists 9:24, etc. as a passage among those that clearly allude to the day of atonement.

The context clearly points to a Day of Atonement allusion (high priest...yearly...blood [cf. 9:7]

Here he is again on 10:1-4

The specifications of "year after year" and "blood of bulls and goats" again indicate a Day of Atonement setting.

He then lists 8 other possible allusions which might point to the Day of Atonement.

Here is Alwyn Salom in his appendix article in the Daniel and Revelation committee series verse 12:

The characteristic service of the Day of Atonement here referred to (cf. vs 7), was located in the inner compartment of the earthly sanctuary.

And on 24:

The reference in the context of the Day of Atonement service of the earthly high priest is not to the outer compartment of the sanctuary.

 

[Jimlarmore]

The act of sitting may be symbolically significant but the work of a mediator and a high priest in heaven does not connotate just sitting around either.

Heb 8:
1. "Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
2

A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
3

For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.
4


For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
5

Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
Exod 25:40 Exod 26:30 Acts 7:44
6

But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises."



The blue lettered verse above ( verse 5 )shows us that the heavenly was a model or pattern for the earthly sanctuary. So what occurs there in the earthly had it's initiation in the heavenly. Today Christ is our high priest mediating between us and God the Father.



Heb 9:11-15
11

"But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12

Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13

For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14

How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15

And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance."

Gal 3:19-21

17

"And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18

For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
19

Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
20

Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one."



Also there is a part of this verse that I think you have not dealt with sufficiently and that is this.



26

"For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself."



This verse specifically speaks of the end of the world as a time that He appeared to put away sin. If all of the putting away was done at the cross then this verse does not make sense.


God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[Sophia7]

The act of sitting may be symbolically significant but the work of a mediator and a high priest in heaven does not connotate just sitting around either.

Heb 8:
1. "Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
2

A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
3

For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.
4


For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
5

Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
Exod 25:40 Exod 26:30 Acts 7:44
6

But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises."



The blue lettered verse above ( verse 5 )shows us that the heavenly was a model or pattern for the earthly sanctuary. So what occurs there in heaven had it's initiation in the heavenly. Today Christ is our high priest mediating between us and God the Father.



Heb 9:11-15
11

"But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12

Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13

For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14

How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15

And for this cause [bhe is the mediator of the new testament,[/b] that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance."

Gal 3:19-21

17

"And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18

For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
19

Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
20

Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one."

The point about Jesus' sitting is not that He was lounging around in heaven being lazy but that unlike the earthly high priest, who had to keep offering the same sacrifices year after year, Jesus offered Himself once for all. His atonement was completed when He sat down at the right hand of the Father, not in 1844. Hebrews paints the contrast between the earthly priests' never-ending duties that were insufficient to take away sin anyway and Jesus' once-for-all, all-sufficient atonement. I really don't see how you can explain away what these texts (and the texts that you quoted) are really saying, Jim, and make them fit the Adventist view:

Hebrews 9:23 Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;
25 nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own.
26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,
28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him. (NASB)
_____________________________________________________

Hebrews 10:11 Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins;
12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD,
13 waiting from that time onward UNTIL HIS ENEMIES BE MADE A FOOTSTOOL FOR HIS FEET.
14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. (NASB)
​

Also there is a part of this verse that I think you have not dealt with sufficiently and that is this.



26

"For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself."



This verse specifically speaks of the end of the world as a time that He appeared to put away sin. If all of the putting away was done at the cross then this verse does not make sense.


God Bless
Jim Larmore

When was the "consummation of the ages"? When did Jesus appear to put away sin? Long before 1844. That text is clearly written from the perspective of looking back on something that had already happened. There is no room for the IJ in this statement: "For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified."

 

[tall73]

The act of sitting may be symbolically significant but the work of a mediator and a high priest in heaven does not connotate just sitting around either.

Notice this statement from my second post:

Obviously this does not mean that He never stands nor is it truly a physical relationship in that sense. The point is the contrast of an incomplete and finished work.

Heb 8:
1. "Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
2

A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
3

For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.
4


For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
5

Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
Exod 25:40 Exod 26:30 Acts 7:44
6

But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises."



The blue lettered verse above ( verse 5 )shows us that the heavenly was a model or pattern for the earthly sanctuary. So what occurs there in the earthly had it's initiation in the heavenly. Today Christ is our high priest mediating between us and God the Father.

So Jim, do you think Jesus is offering sacrifices in heaven right now just as the earthly priests did? What do you see Jesus doing as part of this mediation?

Heb 9:11-15
11

"But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12

Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13

For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14

How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15

And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance."

Gal 3:19-21

17

"And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18

For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
19

Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
20

Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one."


Also there is a part of this verse that I think you have not dealt with sufficiently and that is this.



26

"For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself."


This verse specifically speaks of the end of the world as a time that He appeared to put away sin. If all of the putting away was done at the cross then this verse does not make sense.


God Bless
Jim Larmore

Was Hebrews written after 1844? I think we agree the answer is no.

Was this statement in the past tense? Yes. "Appeared" is in the Greek Perfect which indicates a past event with ongoing results.

So the appearing at the end of the ages to put away sin was already a past event at the time the author wrote.

If this was not obvious by the past tense or the connection to his other arguments it should be obvious by the rest of the phrase--"by the sacrifice of Himself."

Did that happen at the end of time after 1844?

Note a similar text that indicates that Christ's appearing ushered in the end of the ages:


(1Co 10:11) Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come.

 

[Jimlarmore]

Notice this statement from my second post:

Obviously this does not mean that He never stands nor is it truly a physical relationship in that sense. The point is the contrast of an incomplete and finished work.

I agree to an extent yet you have to admit that the work of redemption goes on as we speak and will not be totally complete until He stands up and ends probation for all. The dynamics of folks coming to Christ initially and then , if they slip away, hopefully a re-commitment or rededication makes His offering necessary on an ongoing basis. Christ's blood cannot cover someone who does not want it as that would be violating free will. Christ blood was indeed offered once for all but it's offering is working as an ongoing entity for those who are to come to Christ.

So Jim, do you think Jesus is offering sacrifices in heaven right now just as the earthly priests did? What do you see Jesus doing as part of this mediation?

Mediators plead cases and stand between two or more parties. They work to cause a reconciled agreement between them. In this case it's us with all of our sinfulness and the perfectly righteous and Holy Father. Christ mediates for us and pleads His blood before the Father each time a new convert comes to salvation initially or when we fall away when we come back.

Was Hebrews written after 1844? I think we agree the answer is no.

Was this statement in the past tense? Yes. "Appeared" is in the Greek Perfect which indicates a past event with ongoing results.

So the appearing at the end of the ages to put away sin was already a past event at the time the author wrote.

If this was not obvious by the past tense or the connection to his other arguments it should be obvious by the rest of the phrase--"by the sacrifice of Himself."

That's a good explanation except if you consider that some prophets who looked at interpreted future events gave things as though they had already happened as well. John's description of many of the symbolic characters in Revelation give us the impression that what he was describing was past tense or had already happened, i.e. the beast that came up out of the land or the beast that arose out of the bottomless pit or how about Babylon IS fallen IS fallen is clearly presented as present tense yet we interpret it as apocalyptic or end time events still ahead. So I don't think that the tense here can be used as a conclusive issue to mean that the event had already taken place.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[Sophia7]

I agree to an extent yet you have to admit that the work of redemption goes on as we speak and will not be totally complete until He stands up and ends probation for all. The dynamics of folks coming to Christ initially and then , if they slip away, hopefully a re-commitment or rededication makes His offering necessary on an ongoing basis. Christ's blood cannot cover someone who does not want it as that would be violating free will. Christ blood was indeed offered once for all but it's offering is working as an ongoing entity for those who are to come to Christ.


Mediators plead cases and stand between two or more parties. They work to cause a reconciled agreement between them. In this case it's us with all of our sinfulness and the perfectly righteous and Holy Father. Christ mediates for us and pleads His blood before the Father each time a new convert comes to salvation initially or when we fall away when we come back.

Was Jesus interceding between His ascension and 1844, and has He been doing so since then? If so, then your arguments have nothing to do with an IJ that allegedly started in 1844.

That's a good explanation except if you consider that some prophets who looked at interpreted future events gave things as though they had already happened as well. John's description of many of the symbolic characters in Revelation give us the impression that what he was describing was past tense or had already happened, i.e. the beast that came up out of the land or the beast that arose out of the bottomless pit or how about Babylon IS fallen IS fallen is clearly presented as present tense yet we interpret it as apocalyptic or end time events still ahead. So I don't think that the tense here can be used as a conclusive issue to mean that the event had already taken place.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

John used the past tense because he was describing what he had seen and what had happened in his visions even though they were yet to be fulfilled in reality.

Hebrews, on the other hand, is not an apocalyptic prophecy. It's a theological treatise about what Jesus accomplished for us as our High Priest. Its focus is on an event that had already happened in reality before the book was written. You're ignoring the clear reference of Hebrews 9:26 to Jesus' appearing at the end of the ages to offer Himself as a sacrifice:

Hebrews 9:25 Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26 Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.
​

There was only one time that that happened, and it was not in 1844. Unless you say that Jesus offered Himself as a sacrifice again in 1844, you just can't get around the obvious meaning of this text.

 

[tall73]

Christ blood was indeed offered once for all but it's offering is working as an ongoing entity for those who are to come to Christ.

Alright, this is the key concept. Sophia already addressed the other.

I agree that the merits of what Jesus accomplished still provide the means of His mediation. So we have no conflict there at all.

But if you admit that the blood was already offered for the once for all sacrifice then that seals the deal for the IJ. The blood being offered WAS the type in the Levitical service.

Therefore Jesus' entry by blood and application of blood in the once for all sacrifice cannot be anything other than a fulfillment of the day of atonement blood and that part of the type.

There never will be another sacrifice or presentation of blood. Therefore that part is fulfilled.

 

[icedtea]

Can someone tell me (or send a link) to this IJ? I, and others reading, don't know what it is and want to learn more.

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

Can someone tell me (or send a link) to this IJ? I, and others reading, don't know what it is and want to learn more.

You can find an explanation here from the book What SDA's Believe
http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/books/27/27-23.htm

They try and explain it from the interpretation of Daniel, here are a few quotes which explain aspects:

The Judgment and Salvation. Does the investigative judgment jeopardize the salvation of those who believe in Jesus Christ? Not at all. Genuine believers live in union with Christ, trusting in Him as intercessor (Rom. 8:34). Their assurance is in the promise that "we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous" (1 John 2:1).
Why then a pre-Advent investigative judgment? This judgment is not for the benefit of the Godhead. It is primarily for the benefit of the universe, answering the charges of Satan and giving assurance to the unfallen creation that God will allow into His kingdom only those who truly have been converted. So God opens the books of record for impartial inspection (Dan. 7:9, 10).
Human beings belong to one of three classes: (1) the wicked, who reject God's authority; (2) genuine believers, who, trusting in the merits of Christ through faith, live in obedience to God's law; and (3) those who appear to be genuine believers but are not.

326​

The unfallen beings can readily discern the first class. But who is a genuine believer and who is not? Both groups are written in the book of life, which contains the names of all who have ever entered God's service (Luke 10:20; Phil. 4:3; Dan. 12:1; Rev. 21:27). The church itself contains genuine and false believers, the wheat and the tares (Matt. 13:28-30).
God's unfallen creatures are not omniscient; they cannot read the heart. "So a judgment is needed—before the second coming of Christ—to sift the true from the false and to demonstrate to the interested universe God's justice in saving the sincere believer. The issue is with God and the universe, not between God and the true child. This calls for the opening of the books of record, the disclosing of those who have professed faith and whose names have been entered into the book of life."50
Christ depicted this judgment in His parable of the wedding guests who responded to the generous gospel invitation. Because not all who choose to be Christian are genuine disciples, the king comes to inspect the guests and see who has the wedding garment. This garment represents "the pure, spotless character which Christ's true followers will possess. To the church is given 'that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white,' 'not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing,' (Rev. 19:8; Eph. 5:27). The fine linen, says the Scripture, 'is the righteousness of saints' (Rev. 19:8). It is the righteousness of Christ, His own unblemished character, that through faith is imparted to all who receive Him as their personal Saviour."51 When the king inspects the guests, only those who have put on the robe of Christ's righteousness so generously offered in the gospel invitation are accepted as genuine believers. Those who profess to be followers of God but who are living in disobedience and are not covered by Christ's righteousness will be blotted from the book of life (see Ex. 32:33).
The concept of an investigative judgment of all who profess faith in Christ does not contradict the Biblical teaching of salvation by faith through grace. Paul knew that one day he would face the judgment. He therefore expressed the desire to "be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith" (Phil. 3:9). All who are united with Christ are assured of salvation. In the pre-Advent phase of the last judgment genuine believers, those who have a saving relationship with Christ, are affirmed before the unfallen universe.
Christ, however, cannot assure salvation for those who only profess to be Christians on the basis of how many good deeds they have performed (see Matt. 7:21-23). The heavenly records, therefore, are more than just a tool for sifting the genuine from the false. They also are the foundation for confirming the genuine believers before the angels.

This is the new version of the IJ the older version is seen in the book Questions on Doctrines but it appears that page is offline now. I will check and see if I can find my electronic copy to show you the concept of cleansing from the record of sin which is the previous version of the IJ.

 

[Jon0388g]

Was Hebrews written after 1844? I think we agree the answer is no.

Was this statement in the past tense? Yes. "Appeared" is in the Greek Perfect which indicates a past event with ongoing results.

So the appearing at the end of the ages to put away sin was already a past event at the time the author wrote.

If this was not obvious by the past tense or the connection to his other arguments it should be obvious by the rest of the phrase--"by the sacrifice of Himself."

Did that happen at the end of time after 1844?

Note a similar text that indicates that Christ's appearing ushered in the end of the ages:


(1Co 10:11) Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come.

"For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world [kosmos]: but now once in the end of the world [aion] hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself." Hebrews 10:26


Notice there are two greek words translated as "world" by KJV translators. "End of the world" in this passage is more accurately translated as "end of ages" - such as in the 1 Cor 10:11 passage you quoted.


"End of ages" is the end the Jewish era, which Christ sealed with His death on Calvary. The "former things have passed away." He appeared once at the end of that age to take away sin. Notice "put away" or "take away" sin is what is referred to. This is precisely what the sacrifice at the altar did, take guilt of sin away from the transgressor.




Jon

 

[tall73]

"For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world [kosmos]: but now once in the end of the world [aion] hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself." Hebrews 10:26


Notice there are two greek words translated as "world" by KJV translators. "End of the world" in this passage is more accurately translated as "end of ages" - such as in the 1 Cor 10:11 passage you quoted.

Yes, it was Jim who quoted the version that translated it end of the world. Hence I compared it with a phrase that had the same underlying word.

"End of ages" is the end the Jewish era, which Christ sealed with His death on Calvary. The "former things have passed away." He appeared once at the end of that age to take away sin. Notice "put away" or "take away" sin is what is referred to. This is precisely what the sacrifice at the altar did, take guilt of sin away from the transgressor.

Because your statement could be meant to convey a number of things, I have a few clarifying questions for you:


A. Are you suggesting that only the sacrifice and not the application of blood is dealt with in Hebrews?

B. Did the sacrifice apart from the presentation of the blood bring forgiveness? Or did both go together?

C. Is Jesus seen as entering by means of His own blood in Hebrews?

Note the following texts:

Heb 9:12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.


Heb 1:3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification (καθαρισμὸ&#957 for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.


Now, compare 1:3 with the whole context of the passage we are looking at:

Heb 9:23 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.
Heb 9:25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own,
Heb 9:26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

In verse 23 the term here rendered purified is the same root as that used in 1:3--cleansed. Jesus cleansed both sins and the holy places. He did this by ENTERING (vs. 24) to appear in God's presence. He did not have to OFFER Himself repeatedly. This is a reference to the entering. He did not have to continually offer blood. He did it once.

The next phrase, verse 26, which is the one in question, supports the argument of 25. If Jesus were to offer blood again and again He would also have to be sacrificed again and again. That clearly was not the case. He died once. He offered the blood once in God's presence. He doesn't do EITHER continually.

That then means that all of the sacrifices, and all the ministrations of blood were summed up in this one.There is no further ministration in 1844.

 

[Jon0388g]

A. Are you suggesting that only the sacrifice and not the application of blood is dealt with in Hebrews?

B. Did the sacrifice apart from the presentation of the blood bring forgiveness? Or did both go together?

C. Is Jesus seen as entering by means of His own blood in Hebrews?

Note the following texts:

Heb 9:12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.


Heb 1:3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification (καθαρισμὸ&#957 for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.


Now, compare 1:3 with the whole context of the passage we are looking at:

Heb 9:23 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.
Heb 9:25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own,
Heb 9:26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Note first that in verse 23 the term here rendered purified is the same root as that used in 1:3--cleansed. Jesus cleansed both sins and the holy places. He did this by ENTERING (vs. 24) to appear in God's presence. He did not have to OFFER Himself repeatedly. This is a reference to the entering. He did not have to continually offer blood. He did it once.

The next phrase, verse 26, which is the one in question, supports the argument of 25. If Jesus were to offer blood again and again He would also have to be sacrificed again and again. That clearly was not the case. He died once. He offered the blood once in God's presence. He doesn't do EITHER continually.

That then means that all of the sacrifices, and all the ministrations of blood were summed up in this one.There is no further ministration in 1844.

Haven't we gone over this before? I thought you guys were specifically discussing the "end of the world" statement.


The blood of the sacrifice provided remission for sins the instant life ceased. The sinner was justified, and guilt forgiven. The record of sin both in the books, and the conscience of the sinner, were not cleansed until the Day of Atonement.

In antitype, forgiveness is provided by the shed blood of Christ. Purification for sins is provided, not purification of sins. The record still exists. The sins have been taken away. Did the Baptist say, "Behold the Lamb which destroyeth the sins of the world" or "Behold the Lamb which taketh away the sins of the world"?



In reference to the translation you've posted: the words "it was" are supplied by the translator. That verse literally reads

"necessary, therefore, the pattern indeed of the things in the heavens to be purified with these, and the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these." Hebrews 9:23

"It was" implies a past event. Tell me, if you sin, does the blood of Christ not need to be ministered on your behalf if you ask forgiveness? Or has His sacrifice pre-forgiven your transgressions? When we sin, aren't we crucifying the Son of God to ourselves afresh?


Remember that nobody (I hope) pictures Christ standing in the heavenly, sprinkling His blood all over the place. The type was a shadow, but the underlying truth the same.


Sorry I cannot answer in much detail, I'm not with my Bible at the moment.


Jon

 

[tall73]

Haven't we gone over this before? I thought you guys were specifically discussing the "end of the world" statement.

We discussed Jim's objection to my OP. Jim was only raising the issue regarding the end of the world to avoid the implications that doing away with sins was in the past, rather than in the future.

While we have discussed some of the material the OP is somewhat different than our previous discussions in the nature of the main thrust and the supporting evidence.

The blood of the sacrifice provided remission for sins the instant life ceased. The sinner was justified, and guilt forgiven. The record of sin both in the books, and the conscience of the sinner, were not cleansed until the Day of Atonement.

A. Have you read my two introductory posts?

B. If forgiveness did not need the presentation of blood then why does the text say that the blood was taken in to make atonement?

This section of the second post dealt with the need for ministration by the priest to provide atonement. I bolded some of the key portions for you now.


----------
Lev 6:30 But no sin offering shall be eaten from which any blood is brought into the tent of meeting to make atonement in the Holy Place; it shall be burned up with fire.


The ministration of the blood was part of the process.

Again notice in chapter 4 of Leviticus:

Lev 4:27 "If anyone of the common people sins unintentionally in doing any one of the things that by the LORD's commandments ought not to be done, and realizes his guilt,
Lev 4:28 or the sin which he has committed is made known to him, he shall bring for his offering a goat, a female without blemish, for his sin which he has committed.
Lev 4:29 And he shall lay his hand on the head of the sin offering and kill the sin offering in the place of burnt offering.
Lev 4:30 And the priest shall take some of its blood with his finger and put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering and pour out all the rest of its blood at the base of the altar.
Lev 4:31 And all its fat he shall remove, as the fat is removed from the peace offerings, and the priest shall burn it on the altar for a pleasing aroma to the LORD. And the priest shall make atonement for him, and he shall be forgiven.

The presentation is included in the process bringing about forgiveness.

-----------

Note that the person killed the animal. But it was the priest that made atonement through the ministration of the blood, burning of the offering, etc. Both were necessary.

In antitype, forgiveness is provided by the shed blood of Christ. Purification for sins is provided, not purification of sins. The record still exists. The sins have been taken away. Did the Baptist say, "Behold the Lamb which destroyeth the sins of the world" or "Behold the Lamb which taketh away the sins of the world"?

Let me state that

a. I have no problem with records. We went over that part before, true enough.

b. The bigger issue is that there is no separate sacrifice for the day of atonement in the fulfillment. All of the sacrifices were taken care of in one. But there also was no continual ministration of the blood. This Priest did not offer again and again. It was once. Therefore the type of the application of blood in the daily was fulfilled. The type of the application of the blood of the passover was likewise fulfilled. The application of the blood of ALL sacrifices was fulfilled, including that of the day of atonement.

Jesus completed the type.

In reference to the translation you've posted: the words "it was" are supplied by the translator. That verse literally reads

"necessary, therefore, the pattern indeed of the things in the heavens to be purified with these, and the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these." Hebrews 9:23

"It was" implies a past event. Tell me, if you sin, does the blood of Christ not need to be ministered on your behalf if you ask forgiveness? Or has His sacrifice pre-forgiven your transgressions? When we sin, aren't we crucifying the Son of God to ourselves afresh?

Jon, again, have you read the first two posts? Please do.

I already dealt with the grammar of that verse in the second post.


-----------------------
his appearance includes ENTERING and "not offering himself repeatedly as the high priest ENTERS the sanctuary EVERY YEAR."

Now the offering of the high priest every year INCLUDED the entering with blood. So did Jesus' offering. Jesus’ offering, including the entering with blood, was not done "repeatedly". It was done once for all. Also it says that Jesus appeared in God’s presence. This is treated above more thoroughly.

Now, what is the timing of this entry? Verse 23 is in fact ambiguous as some of our scholars have pointed out.

Heb 9:23 ᾿Ανάγκη οὖν τὰ μὲν υποδείγματα των εν τοις ουρανοις τούτοις καθαρίζεσθαι, αυτὰ δὲ τὰ επουράνια κρείττοσιν θυσίαις παρὰ ταύτας.



καθαριζω (To cleanse) is in the infinitive. The main verb is an assumed “be” verb. The point of the argument doesn’t really require timing. It is arguing that the type requires fulfillment—things must be cleansed with blood. In the OT type the earthly was cleansed with blood. Therefore the heavenly things must be cleansed.

However, the next verse does not indicate a future action. Nor can we jump over verse 24 –27 to look at the future events referenced in verse 28 without dealing with the tenses of those verses and their relation to his previous argument.


Heb 9:23 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.

Verse 24 continues the argument of the preceding section. This is picked up in the English “for”. He is now showing HOW the cleansing occurred, arguing that everything is cleansed with blood, and so was the heavenly. The English for is the translation of γαρ.

Jesus went into the true tabernacle, heaven itself, and appeared in God’s presence. This is parallel to the entrance of the high priest into God’s presence once per year. The ENTERED in this case is again past tense, εἰσῆλθεν. This then orients the timing of the entering with blood and associated activities.

-------------

Now, as to your question. Jesus already provided BOTH the sacrifice and the ministration of blood WHICH IS THE MEANS of all mediation. Mediation is ongoing. But the type of application of blood is done. And please note that in the type in Leviticus there was NO MENTION of books whatsoever, but of an application of blood. That is exactly what Jesus did.

Again read the first two posts for more details.

Remember that nobody (I hope) pictures Christ standing in the heavenly, sprinkling His blood all over the place. The type was a shadow, but the underlying truth the same.

Yes, it was a shadow. But you admit that the sprinkling of blood for the once for all sacrifice happened. That sacrifice encompassed every sacrifice in the OT. Now go all the way and see the implications. There is only one sacrifice, and it was ministered once:

Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.
Heb 9:25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own,


The blood application is done. The type is fulfilled. That leaves no room for interpreting the type the way we have done. We have read in books, etc. But the type is straightforward--a cleansing application of blood.

Sorry I cannot answer in much detail, I'm not with my Bible at the moment.


Jon

Thank you for your response. I always appreciate your attention to detail.

 

[Jimlarmore]

Was Jesus interceding between His ascension and 1844, and has He been doing so since then? If so, then your arguments have nothing to do with an IJ that allegedly started in 1844.

Investigative activity by God is documented in several places in the Bible starting in Genesis and seems to be something He does as a precursor to major divine activity. There's absolutely no reason to think God would do anything differently at the end of the world when the great controversy is about to end than what He has done since time for our world began and sin entered it. I still maintain the IJ is valid and confirm in Revelation 11. The only part I have a problem with is timing of the blood application that fits specifically with the DOA.

As far as the mediatorial work of Christ goes I think He has always been doing that from the time Adam and Eve first sinned. The blood of Christ has always been offered on our behalf from the first sin. In the beginning of the world looking foward and now in the end of the world looking back. If it had not been for what was promised in the future to cover our sins we wouldn't even have been allowed our "temporal" existence.

John used the past tense because he was describing what he had seen and what had happened in his visions even though they were yet to be fulfilled in reality.


Hebrews, on the other hand, is not an apocalyptic prophecy. It's a theological treatise about what Jesus accomplished for us as our High Priest. Its focus is on an event that had already happened in reality before the book was written. You're ignoring the clear reference of Hebrews 9:26 to Jesus' appearing at the end of the ages to offer Himself as a sacrifice:

Hebrews 9:25 Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26 Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.​

There was only one time that that happened, and it was not in 1844. Unless you say that Jesus offered Himself as a sacrifice again in 1844, you just can't get around the obvious meaning of this text.

The apocalyptic nature of the texts in revelations do not invalidate my points on the tense applications of the Hebrews texts. Other prophets do the same thing as the author of the Hebrews did but still are relaying a futuristic event.

The timing of the application of the blood of Christ here is critical I think as it has everything to do with the IJ's validity or not. Sacrifices were made since Adam's time for the cleansing of sins thru the ages. These sacrifices were symbolic of Christ's sacifice on calvary but the application of the blood within the veil was delayed for many months. Time to allow for what? Think about it.



God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

As often happens we use words and we are unclear what we are really even meaning. For example intercessor:

[SIZE=+2]Our Intercessor[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]By Ron Corson[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]"In many of the popular sermons and hymns of the last two centuries Christ is set forth as mediator between an angry God and the condemned sinner, pleading with God for mercy, at the same time receiving the divine wrath into his own bosom and thus averting from the sinner the consequences of his sin." (The New Schaff-Herzog Religious Encyclopedia, vol. 7 page 270)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]Unfortunately this view has held sway since the beginning of the SDA church, and it is all too often the idea many have when they think of Jesus as our Intercessor. That Jesus is pleading with the Father for His mercy upon sinners. Of course the obvious problem with this scenario is that it divides the Godhead. The Bible is quite clear about Gods love and mercy, so there would be no need for Jesus to plead with the Father for mercy upon sinners. By the same token there is no reason for Jesus to plead with the Father that He (the Father) would accept Christ’s sacrifice to cover a sinners sins. We must always remember that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are One. (Deut 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]John 14:9-10 Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.(NIV)) There is complete unity.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]Christ is designated as the mediator because he reconciles God and man, by uniting His divine nature and the human nature which had become estranged due to sin. (Gal 3:20 A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one. 1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 2 Cor 5:18-19 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. Rom 2:4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance? (NIV))[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]But what do we mean when we say that Jesus is our Intercessor.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]Heb 7:25 Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them. (NIV)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]Jesus intercedes with us to bring us back to God. The believer is brought into communion with God through Christ because Christ came to earth to reveal to the world the very nature of God. Understanding who God is, is the major step needed to prompt us to come back to a relationship with God. Jesus intercession is pictured for us in Rev 3:20: Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me. (NIV)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]Jesus is the God-Man who came in time and space to reveal the nature of God. This was a major work of intercession and reconciliation. But God also is spiritually interceding with mankind in the present non-historical setting (He always lives to intercede for them). Rom 8:26-27 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1](KJV)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]Intercession is not Jesus pleading for us with the Father. Because all of the Godhead in unison is pleading with mankind for their reconciliation to God. Intercession is God pleading for us to come back, and have a relationship with Him, to no longer rebel, to no longer be the enemies of God.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]As our High Priest Jesus reveals God to man. Living as a man Jesus shows us that God understands our human condition. This is done for our benefit since an omniscient God most certainly already knows about our human condition. As our High Priest Jesus tells us that we can freely come to God, that God will accept our repentance. We must always remember that Jesus is God, He is presenting Himself before us in ways that we can understand. (Rom 8:33-34 : Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died-- more than that, who was raised to life-- is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. (NIV))[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]When John says that Jesus is our Advocate with the Father, he is pointing out the unity of God. God is on our side (or more appropriately, we are now on Gods side). Rom 8:31 What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? (NIV)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]For too long we have taken 1 John 2:1 (My little children, these things write I unto you that ye may not sin. And if any man sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: (ASV)). As Christ pleading with the Father to forgive us, but that is not the intent of the text. The text shows us that God is ready to forgive us if we desire to be forgiven. Another similarly misused text is Heb 9:24: For Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God's presence. (NIV) Christ who sits on the right hand of God,(Mark 16:19, Luke 22:69, and others, too many to mention) representing His authority and power, is the same loving and caring person that He was as a human being. Paul is expressing the fact that God is always there to help us. God is not our enemy! He is the friend which is closer than a brother, He is our strength, and ever present help.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit, and God the Father are all our intercessor. They are not pleading among themselves to forgive us. Rather they are pleading directly with you and me to repent and follow after God’s plan. When we accept the giver of Life, He gives us Life.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]http://newprotestants.com/INTERC.HTM[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]
[/SIZE]

 

[tall73]

Investigative activity by God is documented in several places in the Bible starting in Genesis and seems to be something He does as a precursor to major divine activity. There's absolutely no reason to think God would do anything differently at the end of the world when the great controversy is about to end than what He has done since time for our world began and sin entered it. I still maintain the IJ is valid and confirm in Revelation 11. The only part I have a problem with is timing of the blood application that fits specifically with the DOA.

Jim, you have brought up the key question.

What was the timing of the application of the blood? It MUST be when Jesus applied the blood of His once for all sacrifice. And that was not in 1844.

Now, as to your investigative judgment question--Could there be one? If so then it is not tied to what we have said it is. We have said it is tied to the first part of the DOA imagery--specifically the cleansing of the sanctuary by application of blood. But that already happened.

The type is not what we have said. It is blood, NOT books. The blood already was applied.

If there is an IJ then it is not tied to that part of the DOA.

As far as the mediatorial work of Christ goes I think He has always been doing that from the time Adam and Eve first sinned. The blood of Christ has always been offered on our behalf from the first sin.

Agreed!

In the beginning of the world looking foward and now in the end of the world looking back. If it had not been for what was promised in the future to cover our sins we wouldn't even have been allowed our "temporal" existence.

Again, agreed.

The apocalyptic nature of the texts in revelations do not invalidate my points on the tense applications of the Hebrews texts. Other prophets do the same thing as the author of the Hebrews did but still are relaying a futuristic event.

Jim, please look at the clinching detail. The verse talks about Jesus' sacrifice---is there anyway conceivable that Jesus' once-for-all
sacrifice is yet future?

The timing of the application of the blood of Christ here is critical I think as it has everything to do with the IJ's validity or not. Sacrifices were made since Adam's time for the cleansing of sins thru the ages. These sacrifices were symbolic of Christ's sacifice on calvary but the application of the blood within the veil was delayed for many months. Time to allow for what? Think about it.

And here is what you need to think about. The type cannot fit into the reality. Jesus made one Sacrifice, not many. They all hapenned in one. So did the applications of blood.

 

[Jimlarmore]

"For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world [kosmos]: but now once in the end of the world [aion] hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself." Hebrews 10:26


Notice there are two greek words translated as "world" by KJV translators. "End of the world" in this passage is more accurately translated as "end of ages" - such as in the 1 Cor 10:11 passage you quoted.


"End of ages" is the end the Jewish era, which Christ sealed with His death on Calvary. The "former things have passed away." He appeared once at the end of that age to take away sin. Notice "put away" or "take away" sin is what is referred to. This is precisely what the sacrifice at the altar did, take guilt of sin away from the transgressor.




Jon

I think the word "end" is more appropriate here as it is more dynamic. There are two major uses of the word "end" in the greek, "suntelein" #4930 and "telius" # 5056. The word used in Heb 9:26 is the same as the word used by Christ to describe the end of the world period in Matt 28:20 which is 4930 or "suntelein". Best defined as the total dispensation of all things. Another aspect of this can be taken. Dualistic prophecies that apply to the time of ascension and the end of time just ahead of us.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[Jimlarmore]

Jim, you have brought up the key question.

What was the timing of the application of the blood? It MUST be when Jesus applied the blood of His once for all sacrifice. And that was not in 1844.

Jesus blood has been applied since the fall to sin brother. How can you be so sure as to when the heavenly ceremony was conducted and His blood applied? The prophecy of the 2300 days didn't point to a day/year in time for nothing.

Now, as to your investigative judgment question--Could there be one? If so then it is not tied to what we have said it is. We have said it is tied to the first part of the DOA imagery--specifically the cleansing of the sanctuary by application of blood. But that already happened.

Clearly there can be more than one interpretation of the scriptures given. I have already raised an issue with the wording of "end of the ages". Also in Rev 11 the Bible confirms a judgement at a time just before Christ comes.

The type is not what we have said. It is blood, NOT books. The blood already was applied.

If there is an IJ then it is not tied to that part of the DOA.

Agreed!
Again, agreed.

Jim, please look at the clinching detail. The verse talks about Jesus' sacrifice---is there anyway conceivable that Jesus' once-for-all
sacrifice is yet future?


And here is what you need to think about. The type cannot fit into the reality. Jesus made one Sacrifice, not many. They all hapenned in one. So did the applications of blood.

I gotta go to pathfinders and can't complete this until tomorrow.

God Bless
Jim Larmore