The Humbug Thread

brother daniel · Dec 13, 2006

Ashes said:
I don't know how much more I need to defend what I said, but the one rabbi is orthodox and the other one is conservative.

But I bet no matter what I would have answered, you would find a way to make them out to be oddballs. If I say orthodox and conservative, you will say, "Oh, those guys don't like the commercialism of hanukkah so they deny its history" and if I said reformed you would say, "Oh, those guys are so liberal they don't use the traditional writings as authority so they deny its history."

If even Jews don't agree on the practice and origins of hanukkah, to doesn't make much sense to keep arguing over it. My rabbis said hanukkah is a 19th century thing, your rabbi said it's from the middle ages, PGs rabbi said it's from ancient times. I've read half a dozen books on the subject that say hanukkah was a minor event in the Jewish calendar not even celebrated by most Jews until the 19th century when Christmas became a big deal (before the 19th century, even Christians didn't make a big deal out of Christmas.

You are correct but this whole thread begs silly response.

Ashes said:
Most business didn't close and people exchanged small gifts at the dinner table, if they exchanged gifts at all), and that when hanukkah started to be celebrated by the larger Jewish community, it was contraversial because it wasn't a "sacred holiday ordained by God" and there was a lot of debate (I've read many of the letters rabbis and scholars wrote to each other on the subject) about whether or not a big deal should be made out of a holiday whose only existence came from Christian sources.

The whole Christmas thing came from merchants.
Jesus never taught us to keep track of his or anybody elses birthday.
He did remember the Sabbath.

Ashes said:
But you win Menno. Now I feel like a humbug, too.

There is simply nothing anabaptist about Christmas.
But it might be Christian because its fun for the children. lets make the best of it.

Ashes said:
I had no idea that I was opening up a subject that would invite non-anabaptists to come into our forum to break the rules about debating.

Education and scholarship is definitely not something prized and valued around here.

Sister your letting your attitude show, and thats what is common on these Christian forums.

Ashes said:
People who are educated should just keep silent and let misinformation flourish in the name of political correctness, I guess.

No matter how we have been educated there is still much to learn.

Ashes said:
Okay, here's the politically correct thing to say, so we can end this debate:

"Hanukkah is one of the most important holidays on the Jewish calendars and always has been, scholars agree that Jews everywhere gave gifts on 8 nights throughout the ages and Jesus lit 8 candles every december in celebration of Hanukkah, as we know it today."

So enough already!

Humbug.

With love in Christ

Hadassah · Dec 13, 2006

Ashes, Emeralds & Diamonds,

I did not come in here to debate to be honest and my ties to the mennonite community is similar to P_G. I have posted here before.

I was homeschooled through the Mennonite curricula of Alpha & Omega and Christian Light. 7th through 12th grade.

Many of my beliefs are similar to the anabaptists, and I was actually raised baptist.

I would rather talk about Hanukkah in the MJ forum, but I think somehow there is a misunderstanding about what P_G and I said.. not sure how. . . but OK.

Maybe I should just schlep back out. . . sorry for the intrusion.

MrJim · Dec 13, 2006

...still looking for a plastic buddha...

Danfrey · Dec 13, 2006

menno said:
...still looking for a plastic buddha...

They are probably not as easy to find as a plastic Jesus. I really have a hard time with the concept of a plastic Jesus.

Hadassah, you are not the only one who has to explain why they don't celebrate Christmas. During December, I think I explain to at least one person a day why I don't celebrate Christmas. I seem to be getting better at it this year. I haven't openly offended anyone that I know of explaining it to them.

I will just be glad when January gets here so I can hear something different on the radio.

RenewedbyFaith · Dec 17, 2006

It's funny this topic came up in this forum.

This morning in our church school class, a Messianic Jewish pastor (rabbi?) did a presentation about the commercialization of Christmas and Hanukkah, and whether or not as Christians we should celebrate Hanukkah as well as Christmas. It was very interesting.

His conclusion was that Hanukkah was not widely celebrated by Jews during Jesus's time, but was done only by a few zealous enclaves who used it to stir up political discontent in hopes of creating a Jewish rebellion against the occupation of Israel.

The rabbi-pastor said that a holiday born of rebellion (the Maccabees were a group of rebels as well as) and anger should not be celebrated by people of peace, as Mennonites are supposed to be. He said that as a man of peace, Jesus would not have celebrated the Macabean events because the average adherent Jew back then wouldn't have done it. He said the Feast of the Dedication in the NT was a one-time event related to the dedication of Herod's temple and had no relation to the Maccabees.

He also coraborated what was said about the holiday not having widespread acceptance until the 1800s during the Second Great Awakening when Jewish communities were being threatened by mass conversions to religions that had more "sex appeal" to them. Hanukkah was reborn as an eight-day celebration of lights to teach the children about their Jewish heritage as well as as reminder that the promised land would some day be theirs again.

I'm not at all trying to stir up bad feelings, but it would appear that Ashes has some truth to back up what she said. I'm not choosing sides or defending controversial subjects, I'm just saying that it would appear that there is some considerable belief in Jewish circles that the Hanukkah of the NT is a different holdiay than the Hanukkah of today.

Peace.

MrJim · Dec 20, 2006

This has to be the most unChristmasy season I've ever experienced. It's like a combo of the warm weather and not being in a shop/factory for 9 or 10 hours straight surrounded by people talking about Christmas and hearing the music on the radio...sorta weird...it's hard to be Grinchy when there's no Christmasy people around.

RenewedbyFaith · Dec 20, 2006

So, people who enjoy Christmas make you hate Christmas?!

MrJim · Dec 21, 2006

RenewedbyFaith said:
So, people who enjoy Christmas make you hate Christmas?!

I never thought of it that way

Yeah, 'cause I can't be a humbug if there aren't people around to be humbuggish with. And I can't be a humbug with the customers at their houses when I go do work there, that's not good for the company, so I'm sorta missing out on it this yearI'll have to plan better next year

RenewedbyFaith · Dec 21, 2006

Merry Christmas Menno!

MrJim · Dec 23, 2006

Christmas eve tomorrow, what's everyone got planned...?

AnaBaptistPat · Dec 23, 2006

Dance in my underwear in the backyard...

Well, Maybe not that...

But I will be spending time with my family, AFTER Church services...

Anyone else?

ABP

MrJim · Dec 24, 2006

AnaBaptistPat said:
Dance in my underwear in the backyard...

Well, Maybe not that...

But I will be spending time with my family, AFTER Church services...

Anyone else?

ABP

Y'all having services Christmas day, that's cool...

I was thinking of sneaking off to Midnight Mass at the local Catholic church tonight. Our's is having a Christmas Eve service but nothing for tomorrow.

Danfrey · Dec 24, 2006

Getting ready for work. I will be spending the next two days changing fuses at the plant. I have discovered that my employer doesn't block Oreilly Safari which means I get to read up on XML, Ajax and PHP. I am looking forward to next year because I will be making double time and a half on Christmas eve and Christmas day. It is usually pretty easy to get somebody to switch days off so that I can work Christmas day. There are some benefits to having employees that don't celebrate Christmas.

MrJim · Dec 24, 2006

Danfrey said:
Getting ready for work. I will be spending the next two days changing fuses at the plant. I have discovered that my employer doesn't block Oreilly Safari which means I get to read up on XML, Ajax and PHP. I am looking forward to next year because I will be making double time and a half on Christmas eve and Christmas day. It is usually pretty easy to get somebody to switch days off so that I can work Christmas day. There are some benefits to having employees that don't celebrate Christmas.

Oreilly Safari? XML? Ajax? PHP?

Double time and a half, I'd do it too...

oliveplants · Dec 24, 2006

Today we were going to go to our church in the AM, then pick some other church for PM service because ours isn't having any. But, our middle daughter got sick to her stomach this morning, so we stayed home.

We exchanged gifts this morning. Tomorrow we will drive 6-7 hours to my parents' home for Christmas dinner and gifts with my family. We'll be there 2-3 days.

I got a Geneva Bible! Well, it is backordered, but I will get one in Feb. I usually use KJV, but I do enjoy collecting and reading the other versions, too.

Danfrey · Dec 25, 2006

menno said:
Oreilly Safari? XML? Ajax? PHP?

Double time and a half, I'd do it too...

Oreilly Safari = Online computer book subscription
Ajax, PHP, XML = programming languages of sorts

MrJim · Dec 25, 2006

Well here it is Christmas morning...it's 8:46 and I'm the only one in the house awake--you'd think with a 6 & 11 y/o boys we'd been up at the crack o' dawn...

Merry Christmas to all...

CelticRose · Dec 25, 2006

Merry Christmas. Today is Boxing Day here & my DH's birthday. Shocker of a day to have a birthday; everyone's still in recovery mode even though we keep Christmas very low key.

MrJim · Jan 5, 2007

Ahh, I'm glad it's all done, aren't you

ZiSunka · Jan 5, 2007

I managed to make it last a week and a half.

The Humbug Thread

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