The Holy Place

[Jerrysch]

According to the Lord Jesus, the "abomination" spoken of by Daniel will take place in "The Holy Place.", to what was He referring to as the "Holy Place"?

 

[LukeBritt]

Israel, of course...(sarcasm)

 

[Jerrysch]

Israel, of course...(sarcasm)

could you be more sepcific? (By the way if I employed the Covenant hermeneutic I would understand your answer to indicate the church, in that CT say Israel=church)

Maybe we should start a thread where we do not use a literal hermeneutic to discover what has been said, that might be a enlightening exercise.

 

[MidnightBlue]

According to the Lord Jesus, the "abomination" spoken of by Daniel will take place in "The Holy Place.", to what was He referring to as the "Holy Place"?

Elder Lavrentii (Proskura) of Chernigov (1868-1950) had an unusual and interesting view on this subject:

"The abomination of desolation will stand in the holy place and will show-forth the foul seducers of the world who, working false miracles, will deceive all such men as have fallen away from God. And, after them, antichrist will appear! The entire world will see him at one and the same time."

To the question: "Where in the holy place -- in church?" venerable Lavrentii said:

"Not in church, but in the home! Beforetimes, a table used to stand in the corner wherein the holy icons were. Then, however, that space will be occupied by seductive instruments for the deception of men. Many who have departed away from the Truth will say: we need to watch and hear the news. And it is in the news that antichrist will appear; and they will accept him."

 

[Jerrysch]

Elder Lavrentii (Proskura) of Chernigov (1868-1950) had an unusual and interesting view on this subject:

"The abomination of desolation will stand in the holy place and will show-forth the foul seducers of the world who, working false miracles, will deceive all such men as have fallen away from God. And, after them, antichrist will appear! The entire world will see him at one and the same time."

To the question: "Where in the holy place -- in church?" venerable Lavrentii said:

"Not in church, but in the home! Beforetimes, a table used to stand in the corner wherein the holy icons were. Then, however, that space will be occupied by seductive instruments for the deception of men. Many who have departed away from the Truth will say: we need to watch and hear the news. And it is in the news that antichrist will appear; and they will accept him."

The TV set? Is that what you are referring to

 

[Dave Taylor]

The 'holy place' was always found in the temple.

The NT temple; following the ripping of the veil; is the followers of Christ.

Satan in the final apostacy and rebellion; will cause people to leave and/or reject the Lord; and to follow after their own selfish desires...God's faithful people from every tongue and tribe will dwindle away, and the gospel message will continue to have less and less impact and effect....until most of the world are in opposition to Christ...and there will be very few true followers of Christ who are alive and remain.

True followers of Christ, who are robed in the wisdom and understanding given them by the Holy Spirit and written in His word; will flee from this apostacy; and will hold strong to the Lord; even as they are killed for His name. Most; however, will choose to reject Him.

Ignore for a moment, the false scenerios about the Abomination of Desolation that you may have learned that have been peddled from Hal Lindsay or Tim Lahaye; and rather consider of the Abomination of Desolation in the Holy place as a gradual process; not a one-time singular event. Much like how society degredated following the fall from the garden of eden; from the landing of the ark on Mt Arrarat; following the entering of Canaan; following the return from Babylonian captivity; and following the 1st advent of Christ. In the final endtime era; the apostacy and falling away will again occur; in similar fashion....The NT describes this in many places.

until Christ breaks open the Eastern Sky; returning in glory to unit with the redeemed of the ages; and to destroy the wicked who knew not His name.

 

[LukeBritt]

 

[Hedgehog]

I believe it was sin when it entered Jesus.Past tense. Fulfilled.

To fully see what was to happen in the holy place- we would need to take a look at the law and see what it foreshadowed right?
That was one of the purposees of the law- to show us what was going to happen.
I think people miss out on alot of info when they dont go into OT scripture and see it foreshadowed/symbolized/prophesied.

Heres what I brought up when I did a search.Im sure you'd see much more if you looked at the context of each verse and looked to see how it pointed towards Jesus.


Exd 29:31 And thou shalt take the ram of the consecration, and seethe his flesh in the holy place.
(yes I know this was for a literal time in a literal place, but the law pointed towards Jesus righ?)
Lev 6:16 And the remainder thereof shall Aaron and his sons eat: with unleavened bread shall it be eaten in the holy place; in the court of the tabernacle of the congregation they shall eat it.

Lev 6:26 The priest that offereth it for sin shall eat it: in the holy place shall it be eaten, in the court of the tabernacle of the congregation.

Lev 6:27 Whatsoever shall touch the flesh thereof shall be holy: and when there is sprinkled of the blood thereof upon any garment, thou shalt wash that whereon it was sprinkled in the holy place.

Lev 7:6 Every male among the priests shall eat thereof: it shall be eaten in the holy place: it [is] most holy.

Lev 10:13 And ye shall eat it in the holy place, because it [is] thy due, and thy sons' due, of the sacrifices of the LORD made by fire: for so I am commanded.

Lev 10:17 Wherefore have ye not eaten the sin offering in the holy place, seeing it [is] most holy, and [God] hath given it you to bear the iniquity of the congregation, to make atonement for them before the LORD?
(wow, interesting!)
Lev 14:13 And he shall slay the lamb in the place where he shall kill the sin offering and the burnt offering, in the holy place: for as the sin offering [is] the priest's, [so is] the trespass offering: it [is] most holy:

Lev 16:24 And he shall wash his flesh with water in the holy place, and put on his garments, and come forth, and offer his burnt offering, and the burnt offering of the people, and make an atonement for himself, and for the people.

Lev 24:9 And it shall be Aaron's and his sons'; and they shall eat it in the holy place: for it [is] most holy unto him of the offerings of the LORD made by fire by a perpetual statute.

Ezr 9:8 And now for a little space grace hath been [shewed] from the LORD our God, to leave us a remnant to escape, and to give us a nail in his holy place, that our God may lighten our eyes, and give us a little reviving in our bondage.

Psa 24:3 Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place?

Eze 45:4 The holy [portion] of the land shall be for the priests the ministers of the sanctuary, which shall come near to minister unto the LORD: and it shall be a place for their houses, and an holy place for the sanctuary.

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

Act 6:13 And set up false witnesses, which said, This man ceaseth not to speak blasphemous words against this holy place, and the law:

Act 21:28 Crying out, Men of Israel, help: This is the man, that teacheth all [men] every where against the people, and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place.

Hbr 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption [for us].

Hbr 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;

 

[Jerrysch]

The 'holy place' was always found in the temple.

The NT temple; following the ripping of the veil; is the followers of Christ.

Satan in the final apostacy and rebellion; will cause people to leave and/or reject the Lord; and to follow after their own selfish desires...God's faithful people from every tongue and tribe will dwindle away, and the gospel message will continue to have less and less impact and effect....until most of the world are in opposition to Christ...and there will be very few true followers of Christ who are alive and remain.

True followers of Christ, who are robed in the wisdom and understanding given them by the Holy Spirit and written in His word; will flee from this apostacy; and will hold strong to the Lord; even as they are killed for His name. Most; however, will choose to reject Him.

Ignore for a moment, the false scenerios about the Abomination of Desolation that you may have learned that have been peddled from Hal Lindsay or Tim Lahaye; and rather consider of the Abomination of Desolation in the Holy place as a gradual process; not a one-time singular event. Much like how society degredated following the fall from the garden of eden; from the landing of the ark on Mt Arrarat; following the entering of Canaan; following the return from Babylonian captivity; and following the 1st advent of Christ. In the final endtime era; the apostacy and falling away will again occur; in similar fashion....The NT describes this in many places.

until Christ breaks open the Eastern Sky; returning in glory to unit with the redeemed of the ages; and to destroy the wicked who knew not His name.

What would the Lord's disciples, the ones who were with Him when He first made this warning, what would they think that the meaning of the "Holy Place" was? The clue from context is to be found in the first verse of the chapter in which this saying is written; Mt. 24:1

Dave you started off good, then you got bogged down, redefining the meaning of the words which our Lord spoke. Your satement; "The 'holy place' was always found in the temple." Then you set off to ignore what you have just stated. If I told you I'd give you $100 in the Astrodome, would you go to New York and expect to get it? Why do you shift the meaning of the Holy Place? And, upon what authority do you do so? Where do you get the meaning that superceeds the meaning of the words God spoke?

Your statement regarding the activity of Satan is troublesome as well, you seem to indicate that a true believer can loose his eternal life, that the faithful believers can as you said; " God's faithful people from every tongue and tribe will dwindle away, and the gospel message will continue to have less and less impact and effect....until most of the world are in opposition to Christ...and there will be very few true followers of Christ who are alive and remain." You sound like old Elijah complaining that all of God's people had been wiped out, 1Kings 9. Where do you find this dwindling away in Scripture?

 

[GenemZ]

According to the Lord Jesus, the "abomination" spoken of by Daniel will take place in "The Holy Place.", to what was He referring to as the "Holy Place"?

The Holy Place will be a New Temple which will stand during the Tribulation.

Matthew 24:15 niv
"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' [ Daniel 9:27; 11:31; 12:11] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand."

What do those passages in Daniel, tell us?

Daniel 9:27 niv
"He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him. "

When this happens, the Jews believing in Christ and are alive at the time of this happening , were given a warning by Christ.

Mark 13:14 niv
"When you see 'the abomination that causes desolation' standing where he does not belong—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains."

That is yet to happen. The "seven" speaks of the seven years of the Tribulation.

Grace and peace, GeneZ

 

[Dave Taylor]

Your statement regarding the activity of Satan is troublesome as well, you seem to indicate that a true believer can loose his eternal life, that the faithful believers can as you said; " God's faithful people from every tongue and tribe will dwindle away, and the gospel message will continue to have less and less impact and effect....until most of the world are in opposition to Christ...and there will be very few true followers of Christ who are alive and remain." You sound like old Elijah complaining that all of God's people had been wiped out, 1Kings 9. Where do you find this dwindling away in Scripture?

I didn't say true believers would be loosing their salvation...I said people would be falling away; and the true chruch would continue to get smaller and smaller; over-time.

Paul taught of the great falling away leading up to the 2nd Advent.
Peter taught of doubtful scoffers rising up prior to the 2nd Advent.
John taught that fewer and fewer would believe; and repent before the 2nd Advent.
Jesus Himself taught that the love of many would grow cold; and many would seek to kill those who are faithful to Him.

Just look at America today; in the year 2005...are their more or less true faithful Christians than there was in 1985....1955.....1855....?

True faithful Christians are not falling away; but they are dying.
They are being replaced by generation after generation of people who are more pagan, humanistic, liberal, and rejectant of CHrist. Each generation gets further and further from the Lord; and continues to fall away.

That's what I am talking about....it isn't a one-time, short-term event as Hal Lindsay and Tim Lahaye have falsely taught; and have caused many to be deceived. The church is dwindling away; beacuse believers are found within her and the numbers continue to fall.

Once the area of Turkey; Asia Minor; was the central area for all of the major cities of Christianity; the church in its infancy in those areas; was as alive and as thriving as it gets....but now those areas have fallen away; Islam; and not the true Temple; Christ and His lively stones; His Holy Place...are no longer there...but the generations thereafter have fallen away into apostacy.

 

[Jerrysch]

I didn't say true believers would be loosing their salvation...I said people would be falling away; and the true chruch would continue to get smaller and smaller; over-time.

So if the true church will get smaller and smaller, and true believers will not loose their salvation (and Indeed I am glad that you do not believe that!). To what do you attribute the "falling away"? Are you saying that believers who are baptized in the Holy Spirit will deny their faith and abandon the church?

 

[Jerrysch]

Paul taught of the great falling away leading up to the 2nd Advent.
Peter taught of doubtful scoffers rising up prior to the 2nd Advent.
John taught that fewer and fewer would believe; and repent before the 2nd Advent.
Jesus Himself taught that the love of many would grow cold; and many would seek to kill those who are faithful to Him.

QUOTE]

Please state where the Scriptures indicate that those who are baptized in the Holy Spirit will depart from the faith (if that is what you are suggesting).

 

[Jerrysch]

Just look at America today; in the year 2005...are their more or less true faithful Christians than there was in 1985....1955.....1855....?

I don't think this line of arguement can be supported, you may consider this to be the case, but I don't think that this can be demonsrtated, if it can please do so

 

[Jerrysch]

True faithful Christians are not falling away; but they are dying.
They are being replaced by generation after generation of people who are more pagan, humanistic, liberal, and rejectant of CHrist. Each generation gets further and further from the Lord; and continues to fall away.

This too is conjecture, which cannot be supported by the facts, if there are any that have been gathered. To make such a sweeping statement is to consider that the gates of Hell are prevailing over the church (that is, that group of believers who have been baptized by the Holy Spirit). Is this what you are suggesting?

 

[Jerrysch]

That's what I am talking about....it isn't a one-time, short-term event as Hal Lindsay and Tim Lahaye have falsely taught; and have caused many to be deceived. The church is dwindling away; beacuse believers are found within her and the numbers continue to fall.

I think the source of the "deception" is when people abandon a literal hermenunic and then import their own meaning into the Biblical text. Isn't it interesting that there is but one literal meaning of this phrase "holy place" and there are many many allegorical meanings? This is what happened when a literal meaning is abandoned, we then have "experts" who tell us the meaning of these texts, when the meaning is very clear when you allow the text to speak for itself. To a Jew lif\ving at the time of Jesus' earthly ministry, it would have been obvious what He was referring to, they had just been speaking about the temple (that is clue #2). So context would indicate that they just might still be talking about the Temple. You need to brush up on your knowldge of the Old(er) Testament and see just what is the "holy place". The Bible makes many many literal statements regarding this literal place, see if you can discover one and then indicate what Jesus meant. Then you need to explain why you consider that the meanings of the words Jesus employed are not what He meant, and then indicate just what "authority" you have consulted to determine the "true" meaning. Make no mistake you have changed the meaning of His words if you do not consider them not to refer to a physical place on the soil of Jerusalem.

 

[Jerrysch]

Once the area of Turkey; Asia Minor; was the central area for all of the major cities of Christianity; the church in its infancy in those areas; was as alive and as thriving as it gets....but now those areas have fallen away; Islam; and not the true Temple; Christ and His lively stones; His Holy Place...are no longer there...but the generations thereafter have fallen away into apostacy.

The true Temple never existed on earth other than in Jerusalem.

How can you say "the church in its infancy in those areas..." if you consider the church to have begun with Adam? According to the model, the "infancy" should have been done. These local churches had become less and less influential throughout the passage of time, yet where these local churches diminished, others flurished.

 

[Hedgehog]

I think the source of the "deception" is when people abandon a literal hermenunic and then import their own meaning into the Biblical text. Isn't it interesting that there is but one literal meaning of this phrase "holy place" and there are many many allegorical meanings? This is what happened when a literal meaning is abandoned, we then have "experts" who tell us the meaning of these texts, when the meaning is very clear when you allow the text to speak for itself. To a Jew lif\ving at the time of Jesus' earthly ministry, it would have been obvious what He was referring to, they had just been speaking about the temple (that is clue #2). So context would indicate that they just might still be talking about the Temple. You need to brush up on your knowldge of the Old(er) Testament and see just what is the "holy place". The Bible makes many many literal statements regarding this literal place, see if you can discover one and then indicate what Jesus meant. Then you need to explain why you consider that the meanings of the words Jesus employed are not what He meant, and then indicate just what "authority" you have consulted to determine the "true" meaning. Make no mistake you have changed the meaning of His words if you do not consider them not to refer to a physical place on the soil of Jerusalem.

Jerry, the true rightly dividing is in essense "abandoning" the literalness.Rightly dividing is not about dividing up scripture and saying this one goes to Israel, this one goes to the church.
Its about seeing and understanding that God spoke in "figures" and studying and understnding now what they really spoke of.

What "Holy place" are you speaking of...... because I prefer to acknowledge the "real".
Hbr 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, [which are] the figures of the true;

 

[Hedgehog]

The true Temple never existed on earth other than in Jerusalem.

What do you mean by "true" ?literal, physical?

That is not, and will never be the "true" temple.
God does not dwell in houses made with hands.

ct 7:48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,

Act 7:49 Heaven [is] my throne, and earth [is] my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what [is] the place of my rest?

what "authority" you have consulted to determine the "true" meaning.

Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

as opposed to old covenant people who had no comforter.

Ecc 4:1 So I returned, and considered all the oppressions that are done under the sun: and behold the tears of [such as were] oppressed, and they had no comforter; and on the side of their oppressors [there was] power; but they had no comforter.

Lam 1:9 Her filthiness [is] in her skirts; she remembereth not her last end; therefore she came down wonderfully: she had no comforter. O LORD, behold my affliction: for the enemy hath magnified [himself].

Lam 1:16 For these [things] I weep; mine eye, mine eye runneth down with water, because the comforter that should relieve my soul is far from me: my children are desolate, because the enemy prevailed.

 

[Hedgehog]

How can you say "the church in its infancy in those areas..." if you consider the church to have begun with Adam? According to the model, the "infancy" should have been done. These local churches had become less and less influential throughout the passage of time, yet where these local churches diminished, others flurished.

m not sure if this is off topic or not, since I havent read real closely ( I have 6 kids in and out constantly LOL)
But I think it (church) would have been considered in infancy all through out the old covenant.

Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Eph 4:14 That we [henceforth] be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, [even] Christ:

The fullness of Christ wasnt there yet.They were all babes.No meat until after the Comforter had come.