The Hero Scale

[thinkfreelivefree]

Thanks in advance to those that actually read this before responding.
Many of you, undoubtedly, have never heard of Lord Raglan's Hero Scale.

Lord Raglan, in The Hero (1936) has classified the parallel life-patterns of the mythical hero of tradition into twenty-two archetypal incidents, as noted below. The higher a particular hero scores, the closer he is to the UR-archetype of the sacred hero-king of prehistoric religious ritual; a historical hero is likely to share rather few of the mythical characteristics.



[SIZE=+2]The Scale[/SIZE]

1. The hero's mother is a royal virgin.
2. His father is a king and
3. often a near relative of the mother, but
4. the circumstances of his conception are unusual, and
5. he is also reputed to be the son of a god
6. at birth an attempt is made, usually by his father or maternal grandfather, to kill him, but
7. He is spirited away, and
8. reared by foster-parents in a far country.
9. We are told nothing of his childhood, but
10. on reaching manhood he returns or goes to his future kingdom.
11. After a victory over the king and or giant, dragon, or wild beast
12. he marries a princess, often the daughter of his predecessor and
13. becomes king.
14. For a time he reigns uneventfully and
15. prescribes laws but
16. later loses favor with the gods and or his people and
17. is driven from from the throne and the city after which
18. He meets with a mysterious death
19. often at the top of a hill.
20. His children, if any, do not succeed him.
21. His body is not buried, but nevertheless
22. he has one or more holy sepulchres.

Here is a list of heroes and their scores

• How Some Heros Scored
• Oedipus scores 21
• Theseus scores 20
• Moses scores 20
• Dionysus scores 19
• Jesus scores 19
• Romulus scores 18
• Perseus scores 18
• Hercules scores 17
• Llew Llaw Gyffes scores 17
• Bellerophon scores 16
• Jason scores 15
• Mwindo scores 14
• Robin Hood scores 13
• Pelops scores 13
• Apollo scores 11
• Sigurd scores 11.

With some of the Gospels written decades after his death, could it be possible that some details of Jesus' life were exaggerated?

 

[Key]

Thanks in advance to those that actually read this before responding.
Many of you, undoubtedly, have never heard of Lord Raglan's Hero Scale.

Lord Raglan, in The Hero (1936) has classified the parallel life-patterns of the mythical hero of tradition into twenty-two archetypal incidents, as noted below. The higher a particular hero scores, the closer he is to the UR-archetype of the sacred hero-king of prehistoric religious ritual; a historical hero is likely to share rather few of the mythical characteristics.



[SIZE=+2]The Scale[/SIZE]

1. The hero's mother is a royal virgin.
2. His father is a king and
3. often a near relative of the mother, but
4. the circumstances of his conception are unusual, and
5. at birth an attempt is made, usually by his father or maternal grandfather, to kill him, but
6. He is spirited away, and
7. reared by foster-parents in a far country.
8. We are told nothing of his childhood, but
9. on reaching manhood he returns or goes to his future kingdom.
10. After a victory over the king and or giant, dragon, or wild beast
11. he marries a princess, often the daughter of his predecessor and
12. becomes king.
13. For a time he reigns uneventfully and
14. prescribes laws but
15. later loses favor with the gods and or his people and
16. is driven from from the throne and the city after which
17. He meets with a mysterious death
18. often at the top of a hill.
19. His children, if any, do not succeed him.
20. His body is not buried, but nevertheless
21. he has one or more holy sepulchres.

Here is a list of heroes and their scores

• How Some Heros Scored
• Oedipus scores 21
• Theseus scores 20
• Moses scores 20
• Dionysus scores 19
• Jesus scores 19
• Romulus scores 18
• Perseus scores 18
• Hercules scores 17
• Llew Llaw Gyffes scores 17
• Bellerophon scores 16
• Jason scores 15
• Mwindo scores 14
• Robin Hood scores 13
• Pelops scores 13
• Apollo scores 11
• Sigurd scores 11.

With some of the Gospels written decades after his death, could it be possible that some details of Jesus' life were exaggerated?

Well this is odd, but equally so, this list came after Jesus, so the Events surrounding the Life of Jesus would have been added to this list, because undoubtedly, Jesus was a "hero" of sorts.

This list was not something that was open to the people of the time that were writing his life and what he had done, as such, they would not know "how" to make him more "hero" as dieing for the salvation of the people... well that about trumps anything any other Hero could have done.

Also, it seems that some of the things on this lost have been made very vauge to allow them to fit many if not most "heros" that have been.

For example,

1: His mother was a virgin, royal, or both, now, in the case of Jesus, his mother was a virgin but was not royal, as such does it apply to any of the situations, or do all aspects of the numbers need to apply.

at #2, his father is a King, in this case, is may or may not apply, as Gos is called a King of Heaven, but that does not mean that God is a King in the sense that we might grasp, as well as there is no "And" involved in this, so would the part of the "and" be just dropped, or would it not apply.

In the end, since Jesus was a Hero, and a very famous one at that, given that 34% of the current world population follows his teachings, one would say, that the events surrounding Jesus life would have a great influence ON what makes a Hero.

Hope this Helps.

God Bless

Key

 

[thinkfreelivefree]

It really doesn't matter if the list/scale came after Jesus. Many of the heroes predate Jesus by centuries. The list may not have been available but certain stories and fables from the 6th-10th centuries BC were still being told or were written down. Written, of course, because we can still read them today. On a side note, the similarities between Dionysus and Jesus are very interesting if anyone wants to look into that.

Granted there are arguments of this but wasn't Mary a descendant of King David? If so, would she not have royal Blood? She has to be to fulfill one of those prophecies because obviously if it was Joseph, than there would be a problem. How specific do you need the items on the list to be? There are many different stories and of course not all of them would share the exact same details.

I do not have a problem with his teachings my question was and still is, is it quite possible that details of his life were exaggerated?

Hope this helps

 

[HypnoToad]

All things being equal, perhaps your theory might be true.

Unfortunately for the theory, all things are not equal.

While high claims about typical people may likely be exaggerated, Jesus is was not the typical person. What applies to them doesn't necessarily apply to Jesus.

 

[thinkfreelivefree]

All things being equal, perhaps your theory might be true.

Unfortunately for the theory, all things are not equal.

While high claims about typical people may likely be exaggerated, Jesus is was not the typical person. What applies to them doesn't necessarily apply to Jesus.

I can't take claim for this theory but I do appreciate your straight answer.

 

[HypnoToad]

Well, "your" just really means that you are presenting it, not that you originated it. But you're welcome.

 

[thinkfreelivefree]

Well, "your" just really means that you are presenting it, not that you originated it. But you're welcome.

Well ummmm...thanks for clarifying that.

 

[heron]

If I were to make up my own hero list, Robin Hood would have rated much higher.


Speaking of literary archetypes, most of these attributes related to public sympathy or respect, not to the actual work they did to help people.

It says to me that authors feel they really have to pump up a hero in order to give him appeal, because human nature does not elevate the right people in society -- the ones who actually rolled up their sleeves and cared.

I guess I'm getting off track, eh?

 

[Key]

It really doesn't matter if the list/scale came after Jesus.

Yes, yes it does.. as adding Jesus to the list.. before the List was written, adds the events around Jesus life to the list.

Many of the heroes predate Jesus by centuries. The list may not have been available but certain stories and fables from the 6th-10th centuries BC were still being told or were written down.

Yes, and you have a point to bring up with this?

Written, of course, because we can still read them today. On a side note, the similarities between Dionysus and Jesus are very interesting if anyone wants to look into that.

Yes, and the Stories between Abraham Lincoln and JFK are similar as well, do we say they were fabrication, and that each is really the same person, or do we admit that they were two different people, from two different times, and the events surrounding their life, was real.

Hummmmm....

As for still reading them today.. many of the works we have to date the stories to 6 to 10 thousand BC we have only found much later manuscripts, post dating the Life of Jesus, as such, the events of Jesus could very well have influenced the new manuscripts as opposed to the other way around, given that the Bible was can validate was written only some few short years, like 30, after his death, this makes it one of the most current and close to the actual time of the individual that the story could have been.

So, the question you might want to ponder even deeper, is, did Jesus influence these other "hero's"?

Granted there are arguments of this but wasn't Mary a descendant of King David?

She was of Davids line... that is true, but she was not Royalty. She was a simple woman, married to a craftsman.

If so, would she not have royal Blood?

Not really.

This was a promise to David by God that his "blood" shall give birth to the Messiah, but this has nothing to do with royalty, as the Line of David lost control of the Kingship.

She has to be to fulfill one of those prophecies because obviously if it was Joseph, than there would be a problem.

No, it would not be a problem, if it went though Joseph, as a simple matter of culture and inheritance would have cleared the issue up.

How specific do you need the items on the list to be? There are many different stories and of course not all of them would share the exact same details.

Yes, but those detail are important.

Like for example, Dionysus being born from a stone... that is an important detail.. don't you think?

I do not have a problem with his teachings my question was and still is, is it quite possible that details of his life were exaggerated?

Hope this helps

I have no doubt that they were not, as he was a prophet, not some legendary Hero when they were writing about him. This was a man that walked the earth, and they wrote him as such, in this manner, to change the events or to make Jesus more "Hero" would have been an insult to both Jesus and their faith in him.

In this front, they were not trying to make Jesus a "Hero".. they were only telling what he has done, and that either would have been enough, or would not have been. If it would not have been, then so be it, the people would fade away, and he would have been nothing more then some crazy guy , that got killed for his blasphemy.

I hope I have answered this Question for you.

God Bless

Key

 

[thinkfreelivefree]

Yes, yes it does.. as adding Jesus to the list.. before the List was written, adds the events around Jesus life to the list.

So are you saying the list was made with Jesus in mind?

Yes, and you have a point to bring up with this?

My point with this is that it would be very easy to pull bits and pieces of stories that existed before Jesus and add them to the story of Jesus.

Yes, and the Stories between Abraham Lincoln and JFK are similar as well, do we say they were fabrication, and that each is really the same person, or do we admit that they were two different people, from two different times, and the events surrounding their life, was real.

Hummmmm....

Which isn't really covered in mystery because Abraham Lincoln didn't live 2000 years ago. You're comparing 2 people when the list above compares 16. Many biographies have been written about both men. Other than the Bible, how many have been written about Jesus?
As for the similarities between the 2 great Presidents, http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=652044
its really not that weird...

As for still reading them today.. many of the works we have to date the stories to 6 to 10 thousand BC we have only found much later manuscripts, post dating the Life of Jesus, as such, the events of Jesus could very well have influenced the new manuscripts as opposed to the other way around, given that the Bible was can validate was written only some few short years, like 30, after his death, this makes it one of the most current and close to the actual time of the individual that the story could have been.

If that's the case, why aren't religious leaders doing a better job of teaching how Christianity came about and how it spread? and link?

So, the question you might want to ponder even deeper, is, did Jesus influence these other "hero's"?

Robin Hood, sure why not!

She was of Davids line... that is true, but she was not Royalty. She was a simple woman, married to a craftsman.

With this, we're just nitpicking one of the items on the scale. Either way Jesus would remain at 19 or drop one to 18.

Not really.

This was a promise to David by God that his "blood" shall give birth to the Messiah, but this has nothing to do with royalty, as the Line of David lost control of the Kingship.

see above..

No, it would not be a problem, if it went though Joseph, as a simple matter of culture and inheritance would have cleared the issue up.

Why would this not be a problem? Joseph wouldn't be the father of Jesus so if David's bloodline ran through Joseph, being a step-father would be enough?

Yes, but those detail are important.

Like for example, Dionysus being born from a stone... that is an important detail.. don't you think?

Nitpicking again but how about being born of a Virgin on December 25th, being called the "King of Kings", performed the water into wine trick, etc....

I have no doubt that they were not, as he was a prophet, not some legendary Hero when they were writing about him. This was a man that walked the earth, and they wrote him as such, in this manner, to change the events or to make Jesus more "Hero" would have been an insult to both Jesus and their faith in him.

In this front, they were not trying to make Jesus a "Hero".. they were only telling what he has done, and that either would have been enough, or would not have been. If it would not have been, then so be it, the people would fade away, and he would have been nothing more then some crazy guy , that got killed for his blasphemy.

How much research have you done into the similarities of various religions and have you gone in with an open mind. If you have I hope you can understand why people have so many questions and doubts about religion. I appreciate the effort you take to try and answer all our questions without being so.....vague is the word, I suppose.

I hope I have answered this Question for you.

Thanks for your comments

God Bless

Key

And peace be with you

 

[Saucy]

Did you know that the Jewish bible has had prophets predicting the birth, life and death of the their messiah thousands of years before any of these "heros" on the list? All throughout the bible, written by many different authors and prophets and only ONE man fufilled every single one of them. You do the math on the odds of ONE man fulfilling over 300 prophecies in His lifetime...including where he was to be born and how he was to die.

Also...a lot of this list doesn't apply to Jesus. Numbers 1, 6, 11, 12, 13, 14, 17, 18 and 21 do not apply to Jesus' life. You probably just found something off a website and immediately believed it without doing your actual homework on the life of Jesus. Non-believers are willing to do or say anything to not believe in the one, true God.

 

[ebia]

Thanks in advance to those that actually read this before responding.
Many of you, undoubtedly, have never heard of Lord Raglan's Hero Scale.

Lord Raglan, in The Hero (1936) has classified the parallel life-patterns of the mythical hero of tradition into twenty-two archetypal incidents, as noted below. The higher a particular hero scores, the closer he is to the UR-archetype of the sacred hero-king of prehistoric religious ritual; a historical hero is likely to share rather few of the mythical characteristics.



[SIZE=+2]The Scale[/SIZE]

1. The hero's mother is a royal virgin.
2. His father is a king and
3. often a near relative of the mother, but
4. the circumstances of his conception are unusual, and
5. he is also reputed to be the son of a god
6. at birth an attempt is made, usually by his father or maternal grandfather, to kill him, but
7. He is spirited away, and
8. reared by foster-parents in a far country.
9. We are told nothing of his childhood, but
10. on reaching manhood he returns or goes to his future kingdom.
11. After a victory over the king and or giant, dragon, or wild beast
12. he marries a princess, often the daughter of his predecessor and
13. becomes king.
14. For a time he reigns uneventfully and
15. prescribes laws but
16. later loses favor with the gods and or his people and
17. is driven from from the throne and the city after which
18. He meets with a mysterious death
19. often at the top of a hill.
20. His children, if any, do not succeed him.
21. His body is not buried, but nevertheless
22. he has one or more holy sepulchres.

I guess you have to be pretty generous to get to 19 for Jesus. I get around 13, unless I'm willing to be inconsistant in how I interpret them.

Is it just me, are some of them really double-counting? Eg 6 & 7 are really the same thing - if he wasn't spirited away he would be dead, and there would be no story, and going to a far kingdom requires coming back. No 13 isn't a real point at all - we are talking about kings anyway. No 15 isn't much better. No 6 is cheating - trying to pretend it is more specific than it really is. No 9 isn't true about Jesus, but you would expect to be true about most heroic characters in ancient societies that rarely give a high status to children.

Of course, if Jesus is a returning King then some of the stories about returning kings are going to fit some of the details.

With some of the Gospels written decades after his death,

They might have been written down a few decades later, but the stories were around by the time Paul started writting his epistles.

could it be possible that some details of Jesus' life were exaggerated?

It's possible that some details were, but in a fundamentally Jewish story, with Jesus as the culmination of the story of Israel, it doesn't make a lot of sense to suggest that pagan elements were borrowed, then made heavily Jewish, then shoved into the story. Too many elements don't fit the sort of story that would be likely if it were made up later. Nobody would have invented the Resurrection stories the way they appear in the gospels, for instance; if they were making them up they wouldn't look like that.

 

[ebia]

Granted there are arguments of this but wasn't Mary a descendant of King David? If so, would she not have royal Blood?

Probably most, if not all, of Israel would technically have royal blood; it's a small nation. Surely the point of the bullet point (if there is a point at all) is that the stories would have to make a point of Mary's royalty. They don't.

has to be to fulfill one of those prophecies because obviously if it was Joseph, than there would be a problem. How specific do you need the items on the list to be? There are many different stories and of course not all of them would share the exact same details.

Surely that's exactly the point. Be very specific, and no stories match. Be very vague and all stories match. How vague can you be and the match still carry any significance.

I do not have a problem with his teachings my question was and still is, is it quite possible that details of his life were exaggerated?

To which one has to look to who wrote the stories, when, what is in them, and whether they would look like that if details had been changed. Some details might, others would not. If you are looking at possible pagan influences then you have to ask "do these aspects of the story look like they have been influenced by pagan themes". That starts to look unlikely if the bits of the story in question revolve around Jewish thinking, (or, as in the Resurrection, modified Jewish thinking) for instance.

 

[ebia]

So are you saying the list was made with Jesus in mind?



My point with this is that it would be very easy to pull bits and pieces of stories that existed before Jesus and add them to the story of Jesus.

Well you could, but would it look like it does, and would it have been accepted by what was, at the time, a primarily Jewish religion.

Which isn't really covered in mystery because Abraham Lincoln didn't live 2000 years ago. You're comparing 2 people when the list above compares 16.

I dare say you could compile an equivalent list of points about world leaders, and find 16 that seem to match in a similar way.

Many biographies have been written about both men. Other than the Bible, how many have been written about Jesus?

Well, the bible contains 4 biographies. (Why would you expect a non-Christian to write a biography about him?) Then there are other books in the bible that talk about him without giving a full biography. Then there are a variety of other writings that mention him, if only in passing. Compared to that, how much writing do we have about (say) Tiberius Caesar, emperor of the known world at the time?

It's unreasonable to compare how much is written about Jesus with a modern world leader.

As for the similarities between the 2 great Presidents, http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=652044
its really not that weird...

No, but neither is the idea that, if Jesus is who Christians have always claimed he is, that some aspects of his story would bear a passing resemblence to the stories of some great mythological kings.

If that's the case, why aren't religious leaders doing a better job of teaching how Christianity came about and how it spread? and link?

Because some of them aren't very good at their job, and the ones that shout the loudest aren't always the ones worth listening to.

With this, we're just nitpicking one of the items on the scale. Either way Jesus would remain at 19 or drop one to 18.

See above.

Why would this not be a problem? Joseph wouldn't be the father of Jesus so if David's bloodline ran through Joseph, being a step-father would be enough?

That's all part of the paradox of who Jesus is.

Nitpicking again but how about being born of a Virgin on December 25th, being called the "King of Kings", performed the water into wine trick, etc....

What about these things? (And water into wine isn't a trick, it's an enacted parable.)

 

[heron]

This is the type of list that professors use to springboard an organized and analytical research paper. It is not really intended to box things in, but to improve future writing and analysis.

Most boxes serve us well to organize, but are seldom as able to confine all elements as we would like. The world is full of diversity and surprises, and humanity was never intended to be lumped without individuality.

We grasp for order. We think that predictability will keep us from falling. It does for a while, but always has shortcomings.

 

[thinkfreelivefree]

Thank you all for taking time to answer my questions. I appreciate your insight and not trying to attack me personally. As for this...

Did you know that the Jewish bible has had prophets predicting the birth, life and death of the their messiah thousands of years before any of these "heros" on the list? All throughout the bible, written by many different authors and prophets and only ONE man fufilled every single one of them. You do the math on the odds of ONE man fulfilling over 300 prophecies in His lifetime...including where he was to be born and how he was to die.

Also...a lot of this list doesn't apply to Jesus. Numbers 1, 6, 11, 12, 13, 14, 17, 18 and 21 do not apply to Jesus' life. You probably just found something off a website and immediately believed it without doing your actual homework on the life of Jesus. Non-believers are willing to do or say anything to not believe in the one, true God.

1. May or not apply, based on what you believe about lineage
6. In some ways applies because of the Massacre of the Innocents
11. Jesus spent 40 days and 40 nights in the desert being tempted by Satan
12. doesn't apply
13. " are you the King of the Jews?" "it is as you say.."
14. By uneventfully there was a time when he preached and performed his miracles without being persecuted.
17. may not apply
18. his death wasn't mysterious
21. If you knew the definition, it means burial chamber.

From the looks of it, it appears that I'm not the one who should be studying Jesus. Don't assume to know anything about me or other non-believers or how we came about to think like we do. I know the reasons why I refuse to believe. Maybe you should study a little more about why you do believe. If you really need to know why I don't believe, send me a private message and I'll show you. Until then, practice what you preach.

 

[Saucy]

you didn't say one word about fulfilling over 300 prophecies. This is a general "hero" scale and doesn't pin-point exactly the Jesus story which is the only reason why He doesn't score so high.

 

[calidog]

Thanks in advance to those that actually read this before responding.
Many of you, undoubtedly, have never heard of Lord Raglan's Hero Scale.

Lord Raglan, in The Hero (1936) has classified the parallel life-patterns of the mythical hero of tradition into twenty-two archetypal incidents, as noted below. The higher a particular hero scores, the closer he is to the UR-archetype of the sacred hero-king of prehistoric religious ritual; a historical hero is likely to share rather few of the mythical characteristics.



[SIZE=+2]The Scale[/SIZE]

1. The hero's mother is a royal virgin.
2. His father is a king and
3. often a near relative of the mother, but
4. the circumstances of his conception are unusual, and
5. he is also reputed to be the son of a god
6. at birth an attempt is made, usually by his father or maternal grandfather, to kill him, but
7. He is spirited away, and
8. reared by foster-parents in a far country.
9. We are told nothing of his childhood, but
10. on reaching manhood he returns or goes to his future kingdom.
11. After a victory over the king and or giant, dragon, or wild beast
12. he marries a princess, often the daughter of his predecessor and
13. becomes king.
14. For a time he reigns uneventfully and
15. prescribes laws but
16. later loses favor with the gods and or his people and
17. is driven from from the throne and the city after which
18. He meets with a mysterious death
19. often at the top of a hill.
20. His children, if any, do not succeed him.
21. His body is not buried, but nevertheless
22. he has one or more holy sepulchres.

Here is a list of heroes and their scores

• How Some Heros Scored
• Oedipus scores 21
• Theseus scores 20
• Moses scores 20
• Dionysus scores 19
• Jesus scores 19
• Romulus scores 18
• Perseus scores 18
• Hercules scores 17
• Llew Llaw Gyffes scores 17
• Bellerophon scores 16
• Jason scores 15
• Mwindo scores 14
• Robin Hood scores 13
• Pelops scores 13
• Apollo scores 11
• Sigurd scores 11.

With some of the Gospels written decades after his death, could it be possible that some details of Jesus' life were exaggerated?

Perhaps we should worship Lord Raglan

 

[thinkfreelivefree]

you didn't say one word about fulfilling over 300 prophecies. This is a general "hero" scale and doesn't pin-point exactly the Jesus story which is the only reason why He doesn't score so high.

And you didn't say one thing about the items that you said didn't apply but were obviously wrong. Yes, it is a general "hero" scale, how else should it be. Should it be specified to just to Jesus or Oedipus? I just found it odd that there many similarities between these "historical" figures.. As far as the prophecies, that has nothing to do with this thread if you read the original post. Create a prophecy thread if you want to go there.

 

[ebia]

I just found it odd that there many similarities between these "historical" figures.

Why? The similarities are pretty superficial when one looks in detail, and many of those similarities are really intrinsic to any heroic king figure. If there is stuff that is made up its a far better fit with (for example) stuff in Isaiah. The trouble with that is that the necessary interpretation of some of the key bits of Isaiah didn't exist until Jesus' life illustrated what they meant, so one is stuck with something of a chicken-and-egg situation.