The hell bound..

[Tellyontellyon]

If many people, perhaps most, take the wide gate and end up in hell... that means there will be a lot lot of people suffering for eternity.. and that's a mighty long time (as Prince would say)...
But God could simply utterly destroy them if He chose to... what would be the purpose of keeping them alive but suffering eternally?
God would be aware of the suffering of those tormented souls for ever, it can't be what he wants....
So why do things that way, what would it serve to prolong that suffering for ever... Apart from the suffering of billions of humans, God himself would be being somewhat masochistic surely?
Why have that continuance of suffering/evil for ever? It seems a strange foundation for a new Jerusalem.

 

[sandman]

But God could simply utterly destroy them if He chose to... what would be the purpose of keeping them alive but suffering eternally?

Your logic is accurate, biblically ....it's Traditional Christendom that has distorted the truth.... as they have done with so many things.

 

[lismore]

God would be aware of the suffering of those tormented souls for ever, it can't be what he wants....

2 Peter 3:8-9 I think answers your question, God is patient, giving everyone time to repent and avoid the fate of those who refuse his command to repent. No one need go to hell.

But God could simply utterly destroy them if He chose to....

That's a confident piece of speculation.

So why do things that way, what would it serve to prolong that suffering for ever...

The physical body dies, the Spirit/soul do not.

God Bless

 

[Andrewn]

If many people, perhaps most, take the wide gate and end up in hell... that means there will be a lot lot of people suffering for eternity.. and that's a mighty long time (as Prince would say)...
But God could simply utterly destroy them if He chose to... what would be the purpose of keeping them alive but suffering eternally?
God would be aware of the suffering of those tormented souls for ever, it can't be what he wants....
So why do things that way, what would it serve to prolong that suffering for ever... Apart from the suffering of billions of humans, God himself would be being somewhat masochistic surely?
Why have that continuance of suffering/evil for ever? It seems a strange foundation for a new Jerusalem.

I think this is a misunderstanding of the Bible. But first, tell me what your version of Buddhism teaches about the afterlife.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

If many people, perhaps most, take the wide gate and end up in hell... that means there will be a lot lot of people suffering for eternity.. and that's a mighty long time (as Prince would say)...
But God could simply utterly destroy them if He chose to... what would be the purpose of keeping them alive but suffering eternally?
God would be aware of the suffering of those tormented souls for ever, it can't be what he wants....
So why do things that way, what would it serve to prolong that suffering for ever... Apart from the suffering of billions of humans, God himself would be being somewhat masochistic surely?
Why have that continuance of suffering/evil for ever? It seems a strange foundation for a new Jerusalem.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

If many people, perhaps most, take the wide gate and end up in hell... that means there will be a lot lot of people suffering for eternity.. and that's a mighty long time (as Prince would say)...
But God could simply utterly destroy them if He chose to... what would be the purpose of keeping them alive but suffering eternally?
God would be aware of the suffering of those tormented souls for ever, it can't be what he wants....
So why do things that way, what would it serve to prolong that suffering for ever... Apart from the suffering of billions of humans, God himself would be being somewhat masochistic surely?
Why have that continuance of suffering/evil for ever? It seems a strange foundation for a new Jerusalem.

Eternal punishment is one of four views. No one really knows which one is true.
Blessings

 

[Tellyontellyon]

But first, tell me what your version of Buddhism teaches about the afterlife

Would you explain the correct understanding please?
This thread isn't about Buddhism, that's not for any relevance to what Christians believe.

 

[Andrewn]

Would you explain the correct understanding please? This thread isn't about Buddhism, that's not for any relevance to what Christians believe.

The Buddhist view is actually relevant. I think it can be summarized in that few people attain parinirvana while most people take the wide gate and end up in an endless hellish cycle of reincarnation until they get it right and attain nirvana.

The Christian view is that true believers who follow the Lord will have eternal life with Him. Salvation is not by meditation but by living a Christian life.

 

[Tellyontellyon]

The Buddhist view is actually relevant. I think it can be summarized in that few people attain parinirvana while most people take the wide gate and end up in an endless hellish cycle of reincarnation until they get it right and attain nirvana.

That's not a Buddhist teaching... there is a cycle of rebirth, that is mostly unpleasant and you may go to hell... but it's not for ever... Eventually you will be born again even from hell. There are 6 main realms that you can be born into.... Several different heavens, several hells, demi-god realms, the human realm and the hungry ghost realm, and the animal realm... We have all been in these destinations many times. We have all been each others mother and father.

The point of Buddhism is to escape that cycle of rebirth and suffering.. the Mahayana practitioners vow to refrain from leaving these realms until all beings in all the realms are free.
Therefore, the end point is that you and all beings no longer exist in any of those realms and is the total and permanent end of all suffering.... so it's not endless.
That end point, Nirvana, can't be understood in terms of existence or non existence, but is total bliss.
(For every sentient being)

The path isn't only meditation, there are 8 aspects to the path.

And it's still not relevant... I'm not trying to play... My religion is better than your religion... I'm just trying to find out about yours and understand yours.

 

[Sketcher]

If many people, perhaps most, take the wide gate and end up in hell... that means there will be a lot lot of people suffering for eternity.. and that's a mighty long time (as Prince would say)...
But God could simply utterly destroy them if He chose to... what would be the purpose of keeping them alive but suffering eternally?
God would be aware of the suffering of those tormented souls for ever, it can't be what he wants....
So why do things that way, what would it serve to prolong that suffering for ever...

God only knows, it's his call and not mine.

God himself would be being somewhat masochistic surely?

I believe God is above masochism. He cannot be harmed.

Why have that continuance of suffering/evil for ever? It seems a strange foundation for a new Jerusalem.

That's not the foundation for New Jerusalem.

 

[Clare73]

If many people, perhaps most, take the wide gate and end up in hell... that means there will be a lot lot of people suffering for eternity.. and that's a mighty long time (as Prince would say)...But God could simply utterly destroy them if He chose to... what would be the purpose of keeping them alive but suffering eternally? God would be aware of the suffering of those tormented souls for ever, it can't be what he wants....So why do things that way, what would it serve to prolong that suffering for ever... Apart from the suffering of billions of humans, God himself would be being somewhat masochistic surely?
Why have that continuance of suffering/evil for ever? It seems a strange foundation for a new Jerusalem.

See Isaiah 55:8-9.

 

[aiki]

If many people, perhaps most, take the wide gate and end up in hell... that means there will be a lot lot of people suffering for eternity.. and that's a mighty long time (as Prince would say)...
But God could simply utterly destroy them if He chose to... what would be the purpose of keeping them alive but suffering eternally?

These sorts of questions must of necessity take the human view of sin and divine holiness and justice. We aren't able to see things fully from God's perspective on anything, really. He gives us some idea of what He thinks, how He views things, in His word, the Bible, but the full scope of His perspective remains largely hidden to us. And so, when God judges our sin and rebellion toward Him with eternal hell, we wonder at His response to our sin. Being creatures steeped in sin, loving sin, encouraging sin in others, living in societies crowded with sin, we cannot understand God's hyper-reaction to our wickedness. We are so comfortable with all sorts of sin and often take such great delight in it that we just can't work up the indignation toward it, the deep hatred of sin, that God possesses. From our sin-saturated position, hell seems a vast over-reaction on God's part.

But God doesn't accommodate our perspective on sin. He indicates to us in Scripture that He is not over-reacting to sin but that we are seriously under-reacting to it. His terrible, everlasting judgment upon our sin is His way of communicating to us just how awful the sin is that we love. In His absolute hatred of the sin in which we indulge constantly, He shows us also how far from His holy perfection we are. That the punishment of our sin in hell is forever reminds us, too, that our sin is always ultimately against He who is infinite, without beginning or end.

Hell is punishment. But punishment that is not consciously endured is not punishment. One cannot punish a rock or a broom handle. And so, to merely destroy the unrepentant wicked is to give them escape from the just punishment of their sin; many are the rebellious sinners who, at the end of lives of incredible evil, yearned for unmaking, for total annihilation. But, annihilation avoids the judgment of God, it evades punishment, and so is not proper, divine retribution for evil. Consequently, there is no such response by God to the wicked who die unrepentant in their sin.

Matthew 13:40-42
40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age.
41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness,
42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 22:11-14
11 But when the king came in to see the guests, he saw a man there who did not have on a wedding garment.
12 So he said to him, 'Friend, how did you come in here without a wedding garment?' And he was speechless.
13 Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
14 For many are called, but few are chosen."

Revelation 20:13-15
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Matthew 25:44-46
44 Then they also will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?'
45 Then He will answer them, saying, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Romans 2:2-9
2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them who commit such things.
3 And think you this, O man, who judges them who do such things, and is doing the same, that you shall escape the judgment of God?
4 Or do you despise the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?
5 But after your hard and impenitent heart you are treasuring up unto yourself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them who are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that does evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

John 3:36
36 He who believes on the Son has everlasting life: and he who believes not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abides on him.

Revelation 14:10-11
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascends up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receives the mark of his name.

Daniel 12:1-2
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince who stands for the children of your people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time your people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

 

[RileyG]

People chose to go to hell by rejecting God's goodness and life itself. It doesn't happen by accident, and God is NOT a monster.

 

[Andrewn]

Any soul that drank the nectar of your passion was lifted.
From that water of life he is in a state of elation.
Death came, smelled me, and sensed your fragrance instead.
From then on, death lost all hope of me.

Rumi

 

[TedT]

But God could simply utterly destroy them if He chose to... what would be the purpose of keeping them alive but suffering eternally?

IF we can see this solution then GOD can. If HE chooses to submit some to eternal suffering, then to conform to HIS divine attribute of being loving, HE must be forced by some circumstance or other to do things this way, ie, it is out of HIS control just like their reprobation was.

Consider:
IF HE created every person in HIS image to be HIS bride and so Christ stepped up to be the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world, why not save all but only some? How did some come to be outside of HIS grace and mercy?

They can't be forgiven because
- our free will was an absolute necessity for our heavenly marriage to HIM to be real and true.

- They made the decision to rebel against GOD's claims to Deity by their free will and a free will decision cannot be changed by anyone unless the person asks for it to be changed or their decision is by definition, not free.

- Their decision to rebel was by their rebuke of HIM as a liar and therefore a false god driven by a sinful psychotic megalomania. By this means they shut HIM (and HIS false claims to be the only saviour from sin) out of any interference in their lives or with their choices at all. Ever. This separated them eternally from the only source of salvation in existence.

- Once they rebelled they became enslaved by the addictive power of evil which destroyed their ability to seek true repentance. They were instantly and totally unable to repent of their evil and became committed fully to the belief they were right to rebel against this upstart liar and false god.

This describes the Satanic fall that precipitated the war in heaven and had all sinners flung to the earth.

They are not unforgivable because HE hates them and their sin so much but because when HE asked us to choose to be HIS Bride or to reject HIM, HE promised us our choice would be free and therefore would not be interfered with though there would be legal and natural consequences...warnings which some ignored.

We have no idea if the creation of all spirits as eternal beings was a necessity to HIS plan or something forced upon HIM by the nature of HIS purpose for us causing the end situation to be eternal suffering for the reprobate, not annihilation. I used to support annihilation but the Spirit who converted me and brought me into Christ said no, hell is real and eternal...shrug.

 

[SANTOSO]

If many people, perhaps most, take the wide gate and end up in hell... that means there will be a lot lot of people suffering for eternity.. and that's a mighty long time (as Prince would say)...
But God could simply utterly destroy them if He chose to... what would be the purpose of keeping them alive but suffering eternally?
God would be aware of the suffering of those tormented souls for ever, it can't be what he wants....
So why do things that way, what would it serve to prolong that suffering for ever... Apart from the suffering of billions of humans, God himself would be being somewhat masochistic surely?
Why have that continuance of suffering/evil for ever? It seems a strange foundation for a new Jerusalem.

Beloved one, why you are concerned about judgement, that you will suffer hell eternally.

Where do this fear come ?
If you have love of God, those fear would disappear.

For we heard the grace of God or the love of God:

““Remember these, O Jacob, And Israel, for you are My servant; I have formed you, you are My servant; O Israel, you will not be forgotten by Me! I have blotted out, like a thick cloud, your transgressions, And like a cloud, your sins. Return to Me, for I have redeemed you.””
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭44:21-22‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

We are called to remember these. O Jacob or those who are supplanted to Christ are to remember these. O Israel or the Prince of God remember these, for we are the servants of God’s righteousness, for we are called to obedience to His righteousness, that leads to Holiness, that we are separated for God, for we are sons of God through Christ.

For we who are supplanted to Christ, that we are sons of God through Christ, that we will not be forgotten by Him! He have blotted out, like a thick cloud, our transgressions, and like a cloud, our sins, that we should return to Him, for He has redeemed us.

Beloved one, we should return to the Lord, for He has redeemed us or loosed us from the bondage of eternal condemnation.

So if you are concerned about eternal condemnation, return to Jesus Christ, that you may partake of the redemption.

Come to Jesus Christ.
Return to Him.

To God the Father be all glory and thanksgiving through Christ. Amen.

 

[jayem]

I’m not a religious person. I don’t believe that any kind of heaven or hell exists. I’m a naturalist. When I die, that’s it—lights out, game over, hello darkness my old friend.

One obvious reason for skepticism is that there are so many different afterlife beliefs—even among Christians. Catholic teaching still includes Purgatory. Mormons believe the Heavenly Father will judge non-Mormons and may or may not grant them eternal life. But a full and exalted afterlife is reserved to LDS faithful. The more liberal Quakers believe each person finds God in his own way. And God will decide who is saved and who is not. Jesus can be seen as a model for righteousness, but is not necessary for salvation. In Islam (Sunni, Shi’a, and other denominations,) eternal life requires faith in and obedience to Allah. Hindus worship many gods, and believe everyone is reincarnated in some manner. Buddhists don’t have a personal, all powerful deity. But they believe in constant change and rebirth until nirvana—the state of perfect enlightenment is reached. That’s just a sample if all the various concepts of an afterlife. Other than faith, how can you know which—if any—is correct?

As a naturalist, I suppose I also believe in a reincarnation of sorts. Unless I’m plastinated as a Body Worlds specimen, my remains will decompose into simple organic and inorganic compounds. And will eventually reappear in the environment in other ways—some biological and some not. Isn’t that a kind of rebirth?

 

[TedT]

I don’t believe that any kind of heaven or hell exists.

...good luck with that.

 

[SANTOSO]

I’m not a religious person. I don’t believe that any kind of heaven or hell exists. I’m a naturalist. When I die, that’s it—lights out, game over, hello darkness my old friend.

One obvious reason for skepticism is that there are so many different afterlife beliefs—even among Christians. Catholic teaching still includes Purgatory. Mormons believe the Heavenly Father will judge non-Mormons and may or may not grant them eternal life. But a full and exalted afterlife is reserved to LDS faithful. The more liberal Quakers believe each person finds God in his own way. And God will decide who is saved and who is not. Jesus can be seen as a model for righteousness, but is not necessary for salvation. In Islam (Sunni, Shi’a, and other denominations,) eternal life requires faith in and obedience to Allah. Hindus worship many gods, and believe everyone is reincarnated in some manner. Buddhists don’t have a personal, all powerful deity. But they believe in constant change and rebirth until nirvana—the state of perfect enlightenment is reached. That’s just a sample if all the various concepts of an afterlife. Other than faith, how can you know which—if any—is correct?

As a naturalist, I suppose I also believe in a reincarnation of sorts. Unless I’m plastinated as a Body Worlds specimen, my remains will decompose into simple organic and inorganic compounds. And will eventually reappear in the environment in other ways—some biological and some not. Isn’t that a kind of rebirth?

About creation, this we heard:

“For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:19‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

I was surprised that you didn’t earnestly expect and eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God.

And you have not considered vanity.

But this we heard:
“For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:20-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

So by reason of Christ, the creation has subjected in hope.

And you have not perceived the love of Christ, that the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Repent, and be found in the new life in Christ Jesus.

To God the Father be all glory and thanksgiving through Christ. Amen.

 

[jayem]

...good luck with that.

Good luck to both of us, if it turns out we must face the judgement of Allah.