The Hebrew word ET

yonah_mishael · Nov 19, 2010

Having said this, I've made an image of how the first few verses of Genesis might look in Paleo-Hebrew. This is using a free downloadable Unicode font called Evyoni Hebrew Encoded Palaeo. I've used a period for word separation. (See the post attachment.)

The alphabet can be seen in the Mesha Stele Inscription, here:
http://www.christusrex.org/www1/ofm/sbf/escurs/Giord/44mukhayyat05big.jpg

It's also in the Shiloah Inscription (Hezekiah Tunnel Inscription) here:
http://www.zionism-israel.com/dic/Shiloah_Inscription.jpg

It's also found on coins that were struck during the Bar Kochba revolt between 132 and 135 CE:
http://www.musicofthebible.com/images/bar_kochba_coins.jpg

I've seen no valid reason to accept the reconstruction that's provided on hebrew4christians.com or ancient-hebrew.org. Neither shows any inscriptional evidence that these pictograms ever existed or were ever used by the Israelite people.

Lulav · Nov 19, 2010

yonah_mishael said:
I must say, as soon as people start putting pictures of cows and crosses and saying that these are ancient Hebrew letters, I drop into disagreement. These were not "Hebrew letters". The original idea of the Proto-Canaanite writing system may have resembled something like them, but we must maintain awareness that these are reconstructions and are not found in any Hebrew inscriptions. The alphabet that we find in inscriptions is the Phoenician alphabet, which was used for writing all of the Canaanite Semitic languages.

This is not at all what you've posted above, Yitzchak. It's taken from the same reconstructionist site, hebrew4christians.com. Have you ever had the cow-head pictogram demonstrated to you in a Hebrew grammar book of any kind? Have you looked at Hebrew inscriptions from the First Temple period? None of them is written like that. There's no indication that Moses would have used that type of alphabet to write the Torah. There's no indication that it was ever used for Hebrew. All of the Hebrew that we find from that period comes to us in the Phoenician alphabet, which is the one that I've attached in the image just above this paragraph.

All of these "letter reconstructions" are little more than pie-in-the-sky nonsense (IMHO).

I think he is going back further than the first temple period which comes hundreds of Years after the giving of Torah.

What aleph-bet did Moshe use to write down the Torah?

Have you seen the pictographes from Serabit el-Khadim in the Sinai? Dating back to the time of Moshe, that is clearly an ox head.

I believe this is referred to as the Proto-Sinaitic script and would be the first written language of the Jews would it not?

Yitzchak · Nov 19, 2010

ContraMundum said:
The opposing position is also built upon the same scholarship. It's just devoid of interpretation and eisegesis. Can you not see that?

Yes , I can see that. I must say this thread has upgraded a few notches and I think I might actually learn something even from the opposing viewpoints. I am very pleased with the current discussion now.

Yitzchak · Nov 19, 2010

yonah_mishael said:
Actually, you will find in BDB that the root of אות is alef-vav-heh. It is derived from the root that expresses itself in the hitpael: לְהִתְאַוֹּת lehitavot, "to be marked out, measured" as in Numbers 34.10. Thus, אות and את are not from the same root. את is found in BDB without reference to a root, since the concept of consonantal root normally doesn't have anything to do with prepositions. It applies to nouns, verbs and adjectives.

Thank you for this post. now I am having fun. I will read up on what Browns-driver Briggs has to say about it.
I also will do a little more digging of my sources for ancient Hebrew letters.

yonah_mishael · Nov 20, 2010

Lulav said:
I think he is going back further than the first temple period which comes hundreds of Years after the giving of Torah.

What aleph-bet did Moshe use to write down the Torah?

Have you seen the pictographes from Serabit el-Khadim in the Sinai? Dating back to the time of Moshe, that is clearly an ox head.

I believe this is referred to as the Proto-Sinaitic script and would be the first written language of the Jews would it not?

If Moses used an alphabetic script, it was the Phoenician alphabet. There's no indication from anything that Israelites ever wrote in any alphabet other than the Paleo-Hebrew/Phoenician alphabet and the later Ashur script that developed into what we use today (and these snapshots do not help confirm that this was something that Israelites would have used -- and that's the question here!)

Yitzchak · Nov 20, 2010

Lulav said:
I think he is going back further than the first temple period which comes hundreds of Years after the giving of Torah.

What aleph-bet did Moshe use to write down the Torah?

Have you seen the pictographes from Serabit el-Khadim in the Sinai? Dating back to the time of Moshe, that is clearly an ox head.

I believe this is referred to as the Proto-Sinaitic script and would be the first written language of the Jews would it not?

You are correct that I am going back farther. The charts that Yonah posted came later.

yonah_mishael · Nov 20, 2010

Yitzchak said:
You are correct that I am going back farther. The charts that Yonah posted came later.

Can you show anything that would lend weight to the ideas that the Israelites ever used the pictograms that you've presented? We've got definite evidence that they used the Paleo-Hebrew alphabet. That's for certain (as I've shown above). The Torah has always been said to have originally been written in that alphabet. It was changed to "ktav Ashuri" (כְּתָב אַשּׁוּרִ&#1497 by Ezra the Scribe, as even the Talmud bears witness.

Yitzchak · Nov 20, 2010

..

Ancient Hebrew Word Meanings

There are two Hebrew words commonly translated as God, el and elo'ah. When reading the Bible it is better to have an Ancient Hebrew perception of God rather than our modern western view. The word el was originally written with two pictographic letters, one being an ox head and the other a shepherd staff. The ox represented strength and the staff of the shepherd represented authority.

The Hebrew Alphabet, Acrostic Psalms, Picture Letters - Biblical Hebrew

The first Hebrew letter, 'Aleph, originally represented an ox head and was similarly portrayed in Phoenician and Ancient Greek as well as Ancient Hebrew.
The name for the first letter, 'âleph is the same as the Hebrew word 'eleph which signifies an ox. This probably derives from two ideas, firstly from 'êl which means 'strong' or 'mighty' and as such is used of God, hence of the ox because of its strength. Secondly, in derivation from 'âlaph which is a primary verbal root meaning to 'associate with', 'be familiar with', 'be accustomed to' and as such was used of friendship, taming, joining together (hence as a numeral, '1000', and a 'family') and of learning by association.

Aleph - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Aleph is thought to be derived from the West Semitic word for "ox", and the shape of the letter derives from a Proto-Sinaitic glyph based on a hieroglyph depicting an ox's head,

The Letter Aleph

God The Father

The name Aleph relates to a number of Hebrew words, such as ox, tame, teach, guide, chief, ruler, and thousand. Though this set may appear somewhat diverse at first glance, these ideas actually cohere quite compactly. The natural object that gave rise to Aleph's name is the ox, which also gave rise to the modern form of the Latin letter A, which is an inverted hieroglyph of the head of an ox (). While certainly the root of Alephs name, this is by no means the primary meaning of the triliteral root as revealed by Scripture and the Hebrew language, especially in light of aleph, in the sense of ox, occurring but twice in the Old Testament. A much more significant word, which itself gave rise to aleph as the word for ox, is alluph , meaning tame, docile, or trained to bear a yoke. Rabbi Ginsburgh, in his explanation of the Alephs inner meaning1, takes up this image and explains that the modern shape of Aleph "pictures the yoke of the ox" symbolizing the "yoke of heaven" that we take upon ourselves when we sincerely submit to the leadership and teaching of God. This familiar similitude reflects the words of the Lord Jesus Christ, cited above.

The Hebrew Alphabet, explanation of the letters, also in relation to the Tree of Life.

The image of the Hebrew letter Aleph is an ox. The ox indicates plowing, the penetration of the earth (the female) by the plow (the male). It has a clear sexual meaning. The penetration can also be seen as the Divine Spirit descending into the primeval waters, which it penetrates and impregnates.

A - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"A" can be traced to a pictogram of an ox head in Egyptian hieroglyph or the Proto-Sinaitic alphabet.

Ancient Languages Ppt Presentation

From the book " The Phoenicians" by Elsa Marston, page 34..

The letter A was originally an ox head....

Trivia on Phoenicians Invent the Modern Alphabet Part 2 | Trivia Library

By 1000 B.C., picture writing had become too cumbersome for daily use, especially for those in business. And business was brisk not only for local merchants, but for those dealing in exports and imports among the nations bordering the Mediterranean Sea. The most active among the seagoing traders were Semitic groups called Phoenicians, or Canaanites, who came from the lands we now know as Lebanon and Syria. They were literate and creative, and traded both goods and knowledge with their customers, particularly the Greeks.

The animals, objects, and sounds represented by the Egyptian hieroglyphs did not satisfy the needs of the Phoenicians for record-keeping, sales contracts, receipts, and other business documents. Accordingly, they conceived the idea of using symbols that would mean only sounds that could be combined to make words.

For example, the Semitic word aleph, meaning "ox," was recorded as a simple outline of an ox's head. But instead of using the sketch to mean "ox," the Phoenicians chose to make it represent only the sound of the 1st letter of the word aleph, or A. The word beth, meaning "house," was to lose that meaning and instead represent the sound of B, the 1st letter of the word.

History of the Hebrew Alefbet

The ancient Hebrews shared their alphabet with the seafaring, merchant Phoenicians, and in fact may have borrowed the entire thing from them. Originally the Alefbet was probably based on little simple pictures of everyday things that conveniently started with the sounds they represented. Alef was the word for ox, and Bet was the word for house.

Hebrew letters explained - (Alef) - by Ophir Lehavy Busel - Helium

BRIEF HISTORY OF THE FIRST LETTER

The letter 'alef' is the first in the Hebrew alphabet, a Semitic language closely linked to the language of the ancient Canaanites and to Arabic and Aramaic. The connection between these early scripts is evidenced by looking at the 'alef' in other languages as well. The first letter of the Arabic alphabet is the 'Alif and in Greek, the Alpha. The Hebrew letter 'alef', combined with the second letter of the Hebrew language 'bet', form the word aleph-bet, which means alphabet.

Ancient Hebrew used the proto-Canaanite script, developed around the time of Abraham, and was based upon the script used by the Phoenicians. In Phoenician, the original pictograph of the letter 'alef' represents an ox, strength, and leader. This same pictograph then developed into Ktav Ivri, or the first Hebrew written version of the letter, and then later developed into the classical Hebrew script, which Hebrew readers and writers are familiar with today.

Not only is the hebrew letter aleph traced back to the ox pictore , so is alpha and even our own letter A. Our letter A is the picture turned upside down.

yonah_mishael · Nov 20, 2010

(1) hebrew4christians.com and ancient-hebrew.org are not good sources. They have the biased viewpoint that I'm opposed to.

(2) The comment from the other sources that alef originally represented the "ox-head" doesn't mean that it looked like what they're presenting on the above two sites. I'm asking for one specific thing: archeological evidence to demonstrate that the ancient Hebrews would ever have used the types of pictograms that the above two sites claim. I've never seen such inscriptional evidence, and you've yet to provide it.

yonah_mishael · Nov 20, 2010

See here:
Codex xcix

Proto-Sinaitic (or, Proto-Canaanite) used the almost hieroglyphic representations that you're suggesting. The Hebrews adopted the writing system of the Phoenicians, not of the earlier stage. There is nothing to suggest that Hebrews ever used the Proto-Canaanite forms or that these were part of own writing heritage. Our people adopted the writing of the Phoenicians, with only slight modifications. This is called Paleo-Hebrew.

Lulav · Nov 20, 2010

yonah_mishael said:
If Moses used an alphabetic script, it was the Phoenician alphabet. There's no indication from anything that Israelites ever wrote in any alphabet other than the Paleo-Hebrew/Phoenician alphabet and the later Ashur script that developed into what we use today (and these snapshots do not help confirm that this was something that Israelites would have used -- and that's the question here!)

What else would he have used if not an alphabetic script?

What do you say the Torah was originally written in (I think I asked this before)?

yonah_mishael · Nov 20, 2010

Lulav said:
What else would he have used if not an alphabetic script?

What do you say the Torah was originally written in (I think I asked this before)?

And I thought I already stated that it was written in Paleo-Hebrew (Phoenician) and later converted to Ktav Ashuri by Ezra the Scribe. Until it can be shown that the Israelites ever used anything else, that's what I'll continue to believe (along with every single peer-reviewed treatment of the subject that I've come across).

Lulav · Nov 20, 2010

yonah_mishael said:
This was a very nice response. Thank you for that. I disagree with the idea that Hebrew was the Edenic language, and I reject Edenics a priori. Hebrew came from a prior Semitic language, and Aramaic is actually older than Hebrew. There are also other Semitic languages that are older than Hebrew, such as Akkadian and Ugaritic, which no longer exist. Linguists have established the relationships between these languages and the fact that they come from a common ancestor. We observe linguistic evolution in history, and Hebrew was not free from that. I think it's the fact that we come from different worldviews (I'm a naturalist in my thinking) which makes our discussion points nearly incompatible.

Perhaps it's better that we not argue one way or another with each other. Our basic assumptions about life and about the Hebrew language are in contradiction to each other. So, our conclusions will surely always lie in different directions.

Agree to disagree?

Could the problem be that of spoken vs written language? That the written Hebrew superseded other written languages, but spoken preceded them?

At ohr.edu I found this in reply to Adam's language, are you in contention with this?

We see evidence that Adam spoke Hebrew because he gave Eve two names, each of
. He called her isha (woman) because "she was taken from ish (man)," and he called her Chava (Eve) because "she was to be Mother of all chai (life)." The very name Adam is from the Hebrew word adamah (earth), referring to the fact that G-d created Adam from the earth. From the time of Adam and Eve until the generation of the Tower of Babel, everyone spoke Hebrew.
Sources:

Bereshet 2:23, 3:20
Midrash Bereshet Rabbah 38

Lulav · Nov 20, 2010

yonah_mishael said:
And I thought I already stated that it was written in Paleo-Hebrew (Phoenician) and later converted to Ktav Ashuri by Ezra the Scribe. Until it can be shown that the Israelites ever used anything else, that's what I'll continue to believe (along with every single peer-reviewed treatment of the subject that I've come across).

Ok, I'm sorry I must have missed it. But this brings to mind a question. If, as you say the Torah was originally written in the Phoenician (which is very similar to the Proto-Sinatic to me, just more angular) how did Moses learn this and use this over what would have been a closer language to where he and the rest of Israel was living at the time?

Lulav · Nov 20, 2010

Is this not correct?

Proto-Sinaitic Script is the stage of the alphabet at the end of the Middle Bronze Age. During the Late Bronze Age, the script splits into the South Arabian and the Canaanite groups. The script became well-known from a series of inscriptions from c.1700 BCE in turquoise mines at Serabit al-Khadim in Sinai. Other examples were found in Shechem, Gezer, and Lachish. The discovered texts are in West Semitic Canaanite which means the origin of the script was in a Semitic area. This script was inspired by the Egyptian hieroglyphs based upon similarities of signs and the basic acrophonic principle. The Semitic word for the object of the original pictograph is the starting point and the first letter of that word is the value of the sign. For example, house is beit so the pictograph for house was used for the consonant b

yonah_mishael · Nov 20, 2010

Lulav said:
Is this not correct?

Proto-Sinaitic Script is the stage of the alphabet at the end of the Middle Bronze Age. During the Late Bronze Age, the script splits into the South Arabian and the Canaanite groups. The script became well-known from a series of inscriptions from c.1700 BCE in turquoise mines at Serabit al-Khadim in Sinai. Other examples were found in Shechem, Gezer, and Lachish. The discovered texts are in West Semitic Canaanite which means the origin of the script was in a Semitic area. This script was inspired by the Egyptian hieroglyphs based upon similarities of signs and the basic acrophonic principle. The Semitic word for the object of the original pictograph is the starting point and the first letter of that word is the value of the sign. For example, house is beit so the pictograph for house was used for the consonant b

Yeah, that's accurate. These were not Israelite cities at that time, though.

yonah_mishael · Nov 20, 2010

Lulav said:
Ok, I'm sorry I must have missed it. But this brings to mind a question. If, as you say the Torah was originally written in the Phoenician (which is very similar to the Proto-Sinatic to me, just more angular) how did Moses learn this and use this over what would have been a closer language to where he and the rest of Israel was living at the time?

Moses lived with his father-in-law for 40 years in Midian before he came back to Egypt to take the people out. Surely he learned to read and write in their language! It's entirely possible that Hebrew developed as an offshoot of the Midianite language, though we cannot be sure - since we have no sure knowledge of their language. It is said that Midian was established by the sons of Abraham and Keturah. If that's the case, why wouldn't they have spoken the language of Abraham?

yonah_mishael · Nov 20, 2010

Lulav said:
Could the problem be that of spoken vs written language? That the written Hebrew superseded other written languages, but spoken preceded them?

At ohr.edu I found this in reply to Adam's language, are you in contention with this?

We see evidence that Adam spoke Hebrew because he gave Eve two names, each of
. He called her isha (woman) because "she was taken from ish (man)," and he called her Chava (Eve) because "she was to be Mother of all chai (life)." The very name Adam is from the Hebrew word adamah (earth), referring to the fact that G-d created Adam from the earth. From the time of Adam and Eve until the generation of the Tower of Babel, everyone spoke Hebrew.
Sources:

Bereshet 2:23, 3:20

Midrash Bereshet Rabbah 38

It's actually a very common teaching among Orthodox Jews that Adam spoke Hebrew -- and even that God created the world through the Hebrew tongue. I don't think that's accurate historically.

Tishri1 · Nov 20, 2010

Yitzchak said:
These are some good questions. I don't know if I can answer all of them. I do know that every word in the Hebrew text has meaning. It is not co incidence or random that specific words and letters are in the text. I see contained within the word for marker a clue that points to the cross. That is all.

so do I its interesting to see how the cross meaning is reflected back in the scripture you began with too expecially when we read how John says Yeshua was there creating the heavens and the earth

yonah_mishael · Nov 20, 2010

Tishri1 said:
so do I its interesting to see how the cross meaning is reflected back in the scripture you began with too expecially when we read how John says Yeshua was there creating the heavens and the earth

John says that all things were created "through" (Greek διά +genitive) the Logos, not that it was created "by" (Greek ὑπό +genitive) Jesus. You don't think that's a significant difference? John says that Jesus created the universe no more than Orthodox Jews think that the Torah created the world, since they say that God created the world through the Torah.

In fact, he says it twice in the prologue to his Gospel:

1:3 - πάντα δι᾽ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο, καὶ χωρὶς αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο οὐδὲ ἕν.
1:10 - ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ ἦν, καὶ ὁ κόσμος δι᾽ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο, καὶ ὁ κόσμος αὐτὸν οὐκ ἔγνω.

The Hebrew word ET

הֱיֵה קודם כל בן אדם

Attachments

Y'shua is His Name

יצחק

יצחק

הֱיֵה קודם כל בן אדם

יצחק

הֱיֵה קודם כל בן אדם

יצחק

הֱיֵה קודם כל בן אדם

הֱיֵה קודם כל בן אדם

Y'shua is His Name

הֱיֵה קודם כל בן אדם

Y'shua is His Name

Y'shua is His Name

Y'shua is His Name

הֱיֵה קודם כל בן אדם

הֱיֵה קודם כל בן אדם

הֱיֵה קודם כל בן אדם

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הֱיֵה קודם כל בן אדם

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