The Greatest Story I Never Understood

Cessna 172 · Nov 15, 2013

Mathew 24:37

"As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man."

Simpleman25 said:
First off, there's no relation between the 33 levels in hell and the 33 degrees of masonry.

Contained in the rituals of Freemasonry you will find that the origins (first causation, first premise) of the cult run back to the construction of the temple of King Solomon. One cannot possibly be a Freemason if one does not understand that its symbology is rooted upon the template for which Solomon used to build his temple. Because the size of the project was so vast, a new form of organization was created by Solomon, to ensure correct and timely completion of the temple.

That organization was compiled through "Stonemasons and Architects" and they were systematically categorized into various grades (mimic: degrees) and classes (mimic: lodges). Some of the characters mentioned in the books of Kings and Chronicles in Hebrew scriptures are reflected through various degrees of masonry, including Solomon himself.

As just one example of many, where those knowledgeable about the true origins of freemasonry are concerned, it was Rev. A.N. Keigwin, in an 1873 dedication of the Masonic Temple in Philadelphia, who said:

"Historically, Masonry dates from the building of the Temple of Solomon. No one at the present day disputes this claim."

Do you know more about the masonic cult than "Reverend" A.N. Keigwin, about freemasonry? It was his own sermon [for crying out loud] that inaugurated and made "official" the dedication of the Philadelphia masonic temple, more than 140 years ago. Those are his words, not mine. I am not a mason of any kind.

Do better homework before you jump into bed with satan. Better yet - get out of bed with satan while there is still time to do so. Your eternal life depends on it. Jesus, laid down His life, so that you do not have to lay your down for satan.

All of the occults are satanic in nature - ALL of them. Not one of them is exempt from that protocol. Not one. No matter to what extent they go to cloak themselves in a shroud of light. Satan is not stupid, nor is he naive. That means when he approaches you, he'll do everything he can to appear as enlightenment of some kind or another. All he needs to do it get you off by just one degree and he know that will send you hurdling off course and away from Jesus.

The "evidence" you seek - is your heart - right where only God the Father could place it.

Lastly, listen to the ceremonial utterances of freemasons in masonic lodges (not in your own home). Do they utter recognition to Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior? No. They consistently utter words in reference to entities such as the "Grand Architect." Where do you think that kind of language comes from - "Architect." It comes straight out of the "builders" syntax taken directly from the organization built by Solomon in the "construction" of the temple.

The evidence is all around you and the Spirit of God should have shown you this by now - if it has taken up residence within you. I struggle with other areas of my faith - I don't struggle with being able to recognize the Occult when the Spirit shows it to me.

Simpleman25 said:
In fact there are only 32 degrees in masonry. The 33rd degree is an honorary degree given to very few masons.

And, Mr. Walt Disney, was himself a 33rd degree mason and look what his legacy has given us, movies like the upcoming movie Maleficent, which is straight out of the Occult and purely satanic in nature.

In 1889, Albert Pike, himself a 33rd degree mason, while speaking to the "23 Supreme Councils of the World" said these words:

"To you, Sovereign Grand Instructors General, we say this, that you may repeat it to the Brethren of the 32nd, 31st and 30th degrees: 'the Masonic Religion should be, by all of us initiates of the high degrees, maintained in the purity of the Luciferian Doctrine"

It is time to awakening from the slumber that satan more than anything, wishes you to remain subject to. Listen to what these high ranking masons are telling you as far back as the late 19th century.

There have been PLENTY of masons holding the degree which you say does not exist:

John Adams - 33rd degree
Buzz Aldrin - 33rd degree
Yasser Arafat - 33rd degree
Justice Hugo Black - 33rd degree
Werner Von Braun - 33rd degree
U.S Senator Robert Byrd - 33rd degree
Film Maker James Cameron - 33rd degree
Kenneth Copeland - 33rd degree
Rev. Al Sharpton - 33rd degree
Rev. Robert Schuller - 33rd degree
Rev. Billy Graham - 33rd degree
James Rothschild - 33rd degree
Senator Newt Gingrich - 33rd degree
Vice President Al Gore - 33rd degree
Senator Robert Dole - 33rd degree
Senator Strom Thurmond - 33rd degree
Oral Roberts - 33rd degree (Founder Oral Roberts University)
Rev. Jesse Jackson - 33rd degree
Minister Louis Farrakhan - Mason (not 33rd degree)

I simply grew weary of typing. For this list is in no way final and/or complete. Think about who these people were and are in structural society. Think about the positions in society they held or hold. Freemasonry is one of the (if not the) largest cults currently in existence. It is the Cult behind the Occult. It is not the veil. Freemasonry is what's behind the veil.

Either you are attempting to cover it - or you are ignorant of it. Either way, all things done in the dark, shall be brought into the true light of God. Satan is already a defeated foe.

Simpleman25 said:
The ladders in masonry speak of knowledge, nothing else. To receive further light in masonry refers to Christ. He is the great light in the east that we look to.

A lie straight from the pits of hell. If this were so, freemasonry would not stand upon a former King's failures. A former King in whom God anointed for a specific purpose and who defiled what God had given him to do. A failed King's ideas, are what freemasonry subscribes to and any freemason understanding its own tradition and history, already understands this.

If this were true, then freemasonry would not commingle itself and/or intersect its membership with with those who actively practice Hinduism, Islam, or any other "religion" that fails to acknowledge Jesus as Lord. That is proof positive that freemasonry cannot possibly be of God. That which is of God, is also of Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior without equal and/or peer. You have just exposed one (1) of many (countless) contradictions in the freemason creed.

Simpleman25 said:
So far you've not shown any evidence whatsoever. Just speculation.

I would re-read what's been given thus far before making such conclusions.

Simpleman25 said:
It really irritates me when a man, just that, a man, claims to know exactly what God knows.

Any man can know God's will by simply reading His Word. There is no mystery in that. Such statements are born of satan's lies. Similar lies were told to Eve in the garden, recall:

Genesis 3:3-

(3) "But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die."

(4) "And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:"

(5) "For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."

Cessna 172 · Nov 15, 2013

Satan said essentially the same exact thing you are saying right now. That God's Word is not relevant. God's will is not secure. Moreover, you can elevate yourself and become a god, essentially. The elevation of man. It was the downfall of Adam & Eve and it introduced original sin into the world.

Look at the symbols you use in freemasonry. The Square and the Compass. Symbols not only used in masonic ritual but also symbols that define the connection between masonry and the organization that Solomon designed for the express purpose of building the temple. Another direct connection to Solomon.

Jesus, needs no FellowCraft. Jesus needs no Square. Jesus needs no Compass. Christians are specifically admonished against worshiping or paying homage to idols, symbols and likenesses. Christians are specifically told that God is Spirit and that He must be worshiped in Spirit and in truth. Not through lodges. Not through degrees. Not through rites of special passage. Not through symbolism. And, most certainly not through the occult and its worship of fallen angles and demonic forces from the underworld - completely UN-aware.

And, that is the issue here. Many masons are simply UN-aware that they are serving. The Hexagram formed by the "completing" of the triangles in the masonic square and compass renders ancient pagan symbology. Simply draw a line to connect both ends of the square and a line to connect both ends of the compass and you get two (2) overlapping triangles - better known as the so-called "Star of David," which ancient Jewish Rabbinic writings do not support. The so-called "Star of David," is a relatively new symbol that was attached to Judaism, in circa 1897 - where it rests today, completely out of line with original Jewish heritage on the flag of the State of Israel.

It is a pagan symbol that pre-dates the State of Israel by well over a century and probably a lot more. This is the exact same MOTIF taken for use as the symbolic representation of masonry.

In the masonic book titled "The Second Mile," it explains how this six (6) point hexagram symbol is indeed a very ancient mystic and pagan symbol. It is used in witchcraft, magic, sorcery, alchemy, occultism and astrology - to name a few pagan traditions. Sorcerers believed that it represented the foot print of a six (6) headed demon bearing the name of trud. It was used to both conjure demons and to keep them at bay (O.J. Graham, "The Six Pointed Star," New Puritan Library, 88')

The Pagan Talisman of Saturn

The hexagram is formed by uniting the Water Triangle with the Fire Triangle. This forms the six (6) point "Star of David," or "Solomon's Seal." It is also called the Talisman of Saturn (Dr. Cathy Burns, "Masonic & Occult Symbols Illustrated."). Bill Schnoebelen, a former satanist says that to the sorcerer, the hexagram is a powerful tool used to invoke satan. Others former witches have called the hexagram a sexual or sensual symbol, where when the upper triangle touches the lower triangle, it forms the most wicked symbol in all of witchcraft.

To whom do you pay allegiance UN-aware? Or, are you aware to whom you pay allegiance?

The Hexagram (inverse touching triangles - the masonic symbol - the so-called "Star of David" - the ultimate pagan symbol) was also used by ancient Hindus in the worship of their so-called divine trinity represented by their gods brahma, vishnu and shiva. Upon closer inspection of the masonic symbol, you will note that in "squaring" the triangles you derive not only a six (6) pointed symbol, but also six (6) distinct smaller triangles and a six (6) sided hexagon. A mere coincidence? Or, is that simply the "number of his name" 666. Who was Solomon consorting with without God's approval? He was making direct contact with demons. And, to whom do demons owe their allegiance? To none other than satan himself.

For the Israelite people, this symbol has origins that come straight out of Egypt - but the symbol itself goes back even further than that. The Israelite people simply picked it up during one of their many turns of disobedience to God.

Notice the book of Acts 7:42-43

(42) "Then God turned, and gave them up to worship the host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices by the space of forty years in the wilderness?"

(43) "Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Remphan, figures [symbols] which ye made to worship them: and I will carry you away beyond Babylon."

Clearly, this "star" was used in ancient Egypt, long before the Hebrews were removed from slavery in that land and set as a nation unto itself by God. Yet, these people still fell back into idolatry and pagan worship! This is what Moses ran into when he came back down from the Mt. Sinai.

Moses ran into remnant pagan worship which some Hebrews brought with them out of the land of Egypt and re-instituted while in the wilderness. Why do you think it took them 40 years to come out of the wilderness! It was their continual refutation of God's will that they NOT practice idolatry or worship pagan gods.

There is no such thing as the "Star of David." But, there is such a thing as disobedience to God. The "Star" is actually the star of remphan, aka chuin aka moloch aka Nimrod the husband of Semiramis the well known Queen of Babylon.

Solomon, brought this into existence and it eventually lead to the splitting of Israel into two nations by God. Masons have reached back into the wrong branch of history and have pulled out for itself the ancient pagan god of remphan to use as its symbol which dates back to before even the Egyptian empire. It attempts to mask this reality behind the square and the compass and I doubt seriously that it does this unknowingly.

Simpleman25 said:
You are playing judge and jury. I will only have to answer to one judge on judgement day.

I don't play with matters involving the Spirit. However, I would be very much appreciative if you would kindly explain the source and origin of the masonic square and compass, using something more than hints at "light" and "illumination."

I would also appreciate an explanation for how the masonic lodge finds itself in unity with those who do not claim Jesus as Lord and Savior (Hindus, Islamists, etc.), while at the same time declaring (as you have done above in this thread) that masons seek unity with Jesus.

Those two things do not "square." Not logically and certainly not Spiritually.

I am not judging anyone. That is not my place. However, I am making clear distinctions about Biblical history and I am trying to rightly divide scripture. Something the Bible tells Christians they ought to be doing. I would expect a Christian to at the very least be able to Spiritually recognize the Un-Biblical occultic nature of an organization such as the freemasons.

BTW - I do think that there are masons who believe they are on the "good side." Rest assured, there is no good side of derivative pagan worship - whether knowingly or unknowingly. I do not write this to harm you. I write this to warn you that God has already condemned this in antiquity once before. He need not condemn this practice yet gain, in order for it to be condemned.

This is why as a Christian, we are instructed to put on the whole armor or God, so that we may stand against the schemes of the devil (paraphrasing Ephesians 6:11).

Satan is very deceptive (square & compass signifying body and soul), but he is no where near the equivalent of God Almighty. Satan seeks only to bring you death. Jesus as brought you Life.

Step away from remphanic symbolism [do more homework!] and make Jesus the fullness of your desire. It is not about a religion. It has always been about a Relationship.

Simpleman25 · Nov 15, 2013

Pardon me, but I never claimed God's word was irrelevant! Never have those words left my lips.

Until such time that you sincerely apologize for what you've said, I will refrain from further discussions with you.

Papias · Nov 15, 2013

gluadys wrote:

In my confirmation class, our teacher said the Apostles' Creed was basically formulated to combat Gnostic varieties of Christianity. ...... All of that is terminology which emphasizes Jesus' humanity as the incarnate Son of God--something which horrified the Gnostics.) The Nicene Council was the final defeat of Gnosticism and Arianism in the "official" church.

Yes, that was my understanding from the scholars too - that there were a number of very different Christianities around at the time, and that the Nicene creed is a line by line refutation of them.

It was important for the Roman Church to make it clear that it was in charge, and that these other Christianities were not to be joined. Today, Christians rattle it off by rote, since most Christians agree on most points of the Nicene creed. But, at the time, each line addressed a controversial issue – like if a “creed” today said something like:

We believe all abortion is murder
We believe homosexuality is a sin, and that homosexual partnerships and adoptions must be prevented
We believe that providing welfare only encourages lazyness, and is therefore evil
We believe that nuclear power is of the devil, and should never be used

Saying that would indeed exclude some people, and oppose groups that disagreed.

Some of the groups that were being aimed at by the Nicene creed could be as follows

:

The Nicene Creed (annotated)

We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible

((Exclusion of the Marcionite & Gnostic Christians, who believed there where other Gods, and that Yahweh of the Hebrew Scriptures had only made this world, not all of the invisible divine realm.))

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father by whom all things were made;

((Exclusion of the Arian Christians and others groups of Christians who saw Jesus as a being who was created by God. This included Origen, a prominent Roman Catholic writing around 250 CE. This also refutes Christians who separated Jesus from God.))

who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary

((Exclusion of Ebionite Christians and other Jewish type Christians, who believed Jesus was a non-divine human prophet, with a normal human birth, like say Jeremiah.)))

and was made man, and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate. He suffered and was buried,

((Exclusion of the Docetist Christians, who believed that Jesus was a divine being who only seemed to suffer, but who felt no pain, didn’t really die, and instead ascended to heaven from the cross. This is in both the Gospel of Peter as well as other writings.))

and the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures,

((Exclusion of the Marcionite Christians, who denied that the Jewish Scriptures were talking about Jesus, so his resurrection was not predicted by the Jewish Scriptures.))

and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father. And he shall come again with glory to judge both the quick and the dead,

((Exclusion of many Gnostic Christian groups, who believed that Jesus wasn’t coming back, but that instead it was up to us to find the divine within each of us, and to get to heaven by doing so.))

whose kingdom shall have no end

((Exclusion of the Marcellian Christians, who believed that Jesus would finally be “re-absorbed” back into the father, making a single, Unitarian God.))

And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life, who proceedeth from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified

((Exclusion of various Monarchist Christians, who believed that God was supreme, and that Jesus was therefore subordinate to God.))

who spoke by the prophets

((Exclusion of the Marcionite Christians again, see above.)).

And we believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins.

(((Exclusion of any other rival Christian churches we forgot to mention, such as the Novatists, in case you haven’t gotten the picture yet that the Roman Church is to be in charge))

And we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

((Exclusion of “spiritual resurrection” Christians, such as those that Paul opposes in 2 Corinthians.))

Today it can help forge unity among we Christians, even if it was not designed to do so at the time.

In Jesus-

Papias

Cessna 172 · Nov 15, 2013

Hello There Mark!

God bless you and thanks for your reply.

I've pretty much concluded that the "Hand" was from God. My problem has always been the "why" and "for what purpose." I've always had a difficult time understanding an encounter like that, without some kind of follow-through or follow-up that leads one to do something in response of the encounter. In other words, dare I say it, for the individual to then have some kind of "mission" to perform. In response that I can hear someone saying, 'then go out and stand on the street corner and start calling souls to Christ!' That would not be a dishonest answer, either and that would be a "mission."

However, being touched like that is an amazing thing to have happen and my human side (which is what I am) -vs- my Spiritual side, wants to think that such an experience should correlate with some kind of "larger mission" of some kind, which never happened. Sort of like, Big Hand, Big Mission. But, maybe that simplistic kind of syllogistic thinking is too shallow and too inadequate for what God had in Mind.

I have really just come to accept the fact that some people are given larger tasks than others. In the end, it is all about what God desires - not what I necessarily want, or think I should have. But, boy! That Hand was WONDERFUL and I wish I could experience it every single day of my life in this world - especially, in this world. I dearly and deeply miss God's touch.

I wonder if it has anything to do with the way we will feel when we get new bodies. Hey - I have no idea. And, I don't want to get too caught up in the physical. Yet, how do I know that was not a Spiritual encounter with God! The point is - we just don't know, yet. We don't have the post-rapture body at this time, so we can't fully understand what that will be like until we get one!

Anyway, I've pretty much accepted things the way they are at this point. I was just looking for others who might have had the same or similar experience as I had - to compare notes.

Now, about the other issues...

mark kennedy said:
That's simple enough, if the language is figurative there is usually a 'like' or 'as' in the text indicating it's figurative.

Thanks for the intro to Biblical Symbolism. I pretty much had that part taken care of, however. In my original question, I was attempting to describe the difficulty that I and others have with scriptural interpretations involving instances where the Bible uses language that is not clearly symbolic as in Rev. 1:12-16.

Rev. 1:12-16, is one of those really easy interpretive opportunities where the scripture just overflows with highly descriptive symbolism. Descriptive text is fairly easy to interpret as being symbolic, so no problems there. However, I was referring to text that was Demonstrative. Demonstrative text where the writer is establishing a fact of history taking place at a literal longitude and latitude somewhere on earth, but where the entire story or parts of the story are often couched in allegory, shadows and types.

An example of this would be pretty much all of Genesis 1. This has been argued by many far more eloquently than I ever will, but it does make my point rather firmly. Clearly, any portion of scripture that would pre-date the creation of Adam, must could not have been brought into existence without the divine guidance of God. Modern scholarship in the aggregate is comfortable with the idea that Genesis was authored by multiple individuals who wrote and collected ancient oral Jewish traditions from the time of Hezekiah. The Documentary theory is one that essentially puts Genesis together from a collection of ancient writings covering the period from about 850 B.C. to 500 B.C. and from four different sources: Elohist, Jehovist, Deuteronomist and Priestly documents respectively. [but I digress]

The point is that one really need not go beyond Genesis before one begins to encounter this issue that I refer to above about when to be literal and when to be allegoric. One of the first stops along the way in this journey is Genesis 3. In that chapter, you have the Bible saying "...and he said unto the woman...". Well, at that point you know you are being told that the Serpent was doing the talking. That's where I have difficulty. What was the writer saying? Either one of three (3) things must be true:

a) The writer was using allegory to assert a principle and the Serpent did not actually speak using vocal chords.

b) The writer was being literal and the Serpent spoke using vocal chords.

c) The Serpent represents a spirit that is not of God, but that of lucifer and both Adam and Eve were capable of communication with both.

d) The writer made it all up from whole cloth.

I cannot accept "d" under any circumstance, as that would preclude the conversation ever took place, which by definition precludes original sin as per the Bible. That leaves me with "A,"B," and "C."

If "A" is true, then original sin still entered the world through the decisions made by Adam and Eve, but they took place in a way the writer was not made made privy and this was the method God selected to introduce the story to the rest of the world.

If "B" is true, then it is quite possible that our modern understanding of the true nature of the Serpent is not compatible with that of Genesis. In other words, the Serpent may indeed have had the ability to speak.

If "C" is true, then both Adam and Eve must have had an ability to be receptive to the Spirit realm in a way that we simply do not either understand today, or have access to in our present condition. Therefore, just as you could hear my audible voice speaking to you, if you were standing directly in front of me, Eve would have been able to "hear" the Serpent in the spirit "speaking" to her.

This is the only way I can reconcile Genesis 3, but this does give you the kind of challenges that I and many other face (including yourself I would imagine) on a regular basis when reading the Bible.

Now, I realize that this flies in the face of those who believe the Bible should be taken literally upon every turn of the page. But, then if that were true - using your Revelation 1:12-16 example - it would place literal "feet" made of literal "brass" on something that only appeared to be Jesus. And, that opens the door to a whole lot more speculation about what scripture says.

So, we both agree! There are times when interpretation hinges upon that which is literal and that which is symbolic and/or allegoric in its meaning. Talking serpents and feet made of metal, might qualify as opportunities to exercise good judgement and see the allegory for what it is.

Thus, either "B" or "C" seem like viable candidates. In the case of "B" all one has to conclude is that God is God and I am not. Therefore, if God wants to allow a Serpent to push air through its mouth and form audible sounds that Eve could hear and understand, then that is precisely what God has the right and the authority to do. I have no argument at all with "B" on those grounds.

In the case of "C" all one has to remember is that the world Adam and Eve inherited was absolutely perfect in every respect. I have thought about this for quite some time now and it would seem to me that they air they breathed, the land they walked on, the water they drank, all of it was entire different than what we have today for a planet. In such a state or condition, it is quite possible that God gave Adam and Eve a highly tuned receiver for things in the Spirit realm. A receiver that was lost on humanity after God original sin entered the world. Likewise, I have no argument with "C" as well.

Personally, I like "C" the best. This was the place where God dwelt - literally. The Bible says that the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. So, He was literally right here on earth with both Adam and Eve. Since God is Spirit, Adam and Eve must have had a capacity to communicate in the Spirit, that we simply do not recognize, understand or comprehend today.

Well, this is how I try to go about "studying" and "rightly dividing scripture." I don't always come to well reasoned conclusions, however. There are some aspects of scripture that seem to well beyond my ability to decode in this way.

Lots of people pray when they read scripture and still different people come up with different interpretations - especially when they are reading from two different versions of the Bible, which is one of the great problems that I have with too many denominations and too many differentially translated texts resulting in a wide number of Biblical versions.

Thanks again for the help and the reference links and God bless you!

Cessna 172 · Nov 15, 2013

Simpleman25 said:
Pardon me, but I never claimed God's word was irrelevant! Never have those words left my lips.

Until such time that you sincerely apologize for what you've said, I will refrain from further discussions with you.

Can you go back through my post(s) and indicate the context within which you believe that I've posted something requiring an apology, please. Thank you.

I would also say that you have been given a lot to consider, yet I do not see any rebuttal on the merits of what's actually been given.

Jesus, called a spade a spade. From the perspective of the Sadducee and the Pharisee, I'm sure they probably felt that an apology was required as well. As far as I can tell, Jesus, merely offered them the truth of scripture. He offered them the Word. He offered them Himself.

All I've done is tried to offer the Word in juxtaposition to cult history, well known cult symbolism and a certain amount of common Spiritual discernment that any Christian should have. If that offends anyone, then I am regretful for the discomfort, but I cannot retract nor back away from the Absolute Truth, because the Absolute Truth is God Himself.

If you can explain the origins and the history of freemasonry, that contradicts anything I have written, then I'd be more than happy to post a correction of my error(s). I have used references to well known masons of the 33rd degree, whose own words clearly demonstrate the organization to be purely cultist and flat out satanic to the core.

I would respectfully suggest that you study the history of not just masonry, but the occult in general and you will clearly see the symmetric relationships in the symbolism used in cults of antiquity through the cults of the modern era.

I would further submit to you that occult ritualism is far more systemic in the world than most people realize and deeply ingrained in the world system we live side-by-side with today. We cannot and do not live in the present, while being inextricably tied to our past. In other words, the world system in which we function today, is far more Spiritually corrupt than most realize.

Masonry is born of satan. It really is just that cut and dry. Satan has not stopped trying to destroy God's plan of salvation and he will use any means necessary to accomplish his goal, including the mass deception of those willing to tolerate his symbol(s) as being something other than what they truly represents.

Ephesians 6:12

(12) "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."

Take another look at the partial list of 33rd degree masons - or look them up on your own. The entire World System is corrupt and filled with people who worship satan and do his bidding in one form or another. You will find it in Big Business, Big Government, Big Media, Big Education and Big Commercialized Religion. Satan has his hands and his demonic minions in every single meaningful system throughout the entire planet.

So, all that preparation for the so-called "illuminated ones," as they climb the "ladder" of "enlightenment" [demonic bonding - like it or not - know it or not] storing up "corn," "wine" and "oil" for themselves is really all for not.

When Jesus returns - this worldly system will be destroyed, wiped away and replaced by His Kingdom and His Righteous Ruling Hand - a Kingdom that will never end and a Lord who will rule a new Heaven and a new earth, forever. Recall, Jesus, said that He was going away to prepare a place for us - that where He was, there we may be also. So, this current world system is going away.

Jesus, is coming back with a Sword in His mouth! That does not sound like a stroll through the picnic grounds to me. That sounds like Armageddon to my ears. I stand with Jesus. He is my rock and my shield. Amen.

I have an uncle who is caught up in this satanic cult and he is now of a reprobate mind because of it, so I'll be right here when you are ready to talk about it sensibly and reasonably.

We all have stumbling blocks along the way and sin is sin, no matter what "degree" we my think it to be. God's grace and mercy are well beyond our comprehension but not beyond our grasp whilst Jesus has not yet returned.

Ephesians 2:8-9

(8) "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:"

(9) "Not of works, lest any man should boast."

My prayer is all of God's love, wisdom and discernment to you.

Cessna 172 · Nov 15, 2013

Papias said:
It was important for the Roman Church to make it clear that it was in charge, and that these other Christianities were not to be joined

...
...
...

Today it can help forge unity among we Christians, even if it was not designed to do so at the time.

Papias,

Thank you. Yo make some really valid points.

I underlined your use of unity to bring out another point related to the current Christian Unity Movement. Whether or not it should be called a "movement" is not necessarily the point I want to bring out, but whether or not the principle is even Biblical, is where I wanted to focus.

Have Christians taken the time to study their authentic history? And, is that understanding sufficient or required before "uniting" with others who call themselves "Christians?"

There are Mormons, for example who call themselves Christian. As we have seen in this thread, there are Masons who call themselves Christian. There are Holy Roman Catholics who call themselves Christian. Going down the list of various faiths, sects, bulwarks of religious organizations and factions throughout the world, we can see people taking on the label of "Christian." Yet, they all might have very different ideas, doctrines and formulations for what being a "Christian" means to them. How does anyone unite such diverse opinion and belief about what it means to be a "Christian?"

The idea of unity sounds remarkably sane and coherent and very natural. It is the nature of human beings to want to be united in a sense of wholeness and completeness. However, I sense that the unity movement should probably take the time to ask the question: What does being a Christian truly mean and what does the Bible have to say about Christianity, if anything at all?

Many will give the answer, no doubt, that being a Christian simply means nothing more than being Christ-like, or Christ-centered, or Christ-focused, or Christ-oriented before any other orientation. But, is this the definition that defines true Christianity?

What does the Baptist have in common with the Mormon, as just one of many examples that can be used. Both produce nice sermons where the name Jesus is used. Both, talk about and use Jesus as object lessons in their respective teachings. Is it enough to simply - leave it at that and use that alone as the basis for "unity" between Baptist and Mormons in Christianity?

To belong to the Mormon church is to belong to the Occult. Why? Because of its foundational teachings, philosophy and origins. Mormons believe that Joseph Smith was a literal prophet and that God worked through Joseph, to restore the Gospel of Jesus Christ back to the world. Mormons believe that "many churches, even non-Christian churches have part of the truth that can bring people [us] back to live with God and Jesus Christ, after this mortal life is over." Baptist, don't believe that. So, how does the unity movement go about uniting these completely dissimilar theological belief systems.

Take the Catholic church today. Most Catholic mass ceremonies involve repetitive type prayers offered in this way: "Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen." The elevation of Mary, to the status of a deity, is what the church has accomplished in the minds of its flock. How does the unity movement unite that with Christians who place no one on the level whereby they are offered prayers, other than God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit? How would something like this get reconciled in the annual Christian unity meetings.

My point is this, aren't true Christians already united and don't we already know who they are by what the Bible says on the subject?

Matthew 7:15-20

(15) "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheeps clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves."

(16) "You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles?"

(17) "Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit."

(18) "A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit."

(19) "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."

(20) "Therefore by their fruits you will know them."

I like unity among Christians, and I think it is a great idea. But, who ever said that Christians were not already united?

I think this is a wonderful subject, because it really does get to the core of orthodox Christian theology as compared to the liberalization of Christianity that has taken place probably since time and memorial.

What does being a genuine Christian really mean. To what epoch in Christianity can we return to in history where we can find a singular Christian Church, doing precisely what Jesus had instructed while He was here on earth?

That seems like one of the biggest and most important questions that any Christian can ask themselves and it is the primary reason why I intend to study far more in depth, what the 1st, 2nd and 3rd century Churches truly looked like on a daily basis. They were the closest to Jesus' life here on earth. They walked in the same towns and villages as Jesus' disciples. They knew the early Church Priests who came after many of the disciples who were slain for their following of Jesus. And, many of them walked in those same footsteps as the New Testament was actually being written.

These are the Christians I wish to know more about, because they knew not of Joseph Smith and they made no prayers to Mary. They seem to have been a different 'breed' of Christian. A breed that I think all post-modern Christians should stop and take a closer look at.

Just a thought.

My God's blessings be upon you.

Andrea411 · Nov 15, 2013

Cessna 172 said:
Can you go back through my post(s) and indicate the context within which you believe that I've posted something requiring an apology, please. Thank you.

I would also say that you have been given a lot to consider, yet I do not see any rebuttal on the merits of what's actually been given.

Jesus, called a spade a spade. From the perspective of the Sadducee and the Pharisee, I'm sure they probably felt that an apology was required as well. As far as I can tell, Jesus, merely offered them the truth of scripture. He offered them the Word. He offered them Himself.

All I've done is tried to offer the Word in juxtaposition to cult history, well known cult symbolism and a certain amount of common Spiritual discernment that any Christian should have. If that offends anyone, then I am regretful for the discomfort, but I cannot retract nor back away from the Absolute Truth, because the Absolute Truth is God Himself.

If you can explain the origins and the history of freemasonry, that contradicts anything I have written, then I'd be more than happy to post a correction of my error(s). I have used references to well known masons of the 33rd degree, whose own words clearly demonstrate the organization to be purely cultist and flat out satanic to the core.

I would respectfully suggest that you study the history of not just masonry, but the occult in general and you will clearly see the symmetric relationships in the symbolism used in cults of antiquity through the cults of the modern era.

I would further submit to you that occult ritualism is far more systemic in the world than most people realize and deeply ingrained in the world system we live side-by-side with today. We cannot and do not live in the present, while being inextricably tied to our past. In other words, the world system in which we function today, is far more Spiritually corrupt than most realize.

Masonry is born of satan. It really is just that cut and dry. Satan has not stopped trying to destroy God's plan of salvation and he will use any means necessary to accomplish his goal, including the mass deception of those willing to tolerate his symbol(s) as being something other than what they truly represents.

Ephesians 6:12

(12) "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."

Take another look at the partial list of 33rd degree masons - or look them up on your own. The entire World System is corrupt and filled with people who worship satan and do his bidding in one form or another. You will find it in Big Business, Big Government, Big Media, Big Education and Big Commercialized Religion. Satan has his hands and his demonic minions in every single meaningful system throughout the entire planet.

So, all that preparation for the so-called "illuminated ones," as they climb the "ladder" of "enlightenment" [demonic bonding - like it or not - know it or not] storing up "corn," "wine" and "oil" for themselves is really all for not.

When Jesus returns - this worldly system will be destroyed, wiped away and replaced by His Kingdom and His Righteous Ruling Hand - a Kingdom that will never end and a Lord who will rule a new Heaven and a new earth, forever. Recall, Jesus, said that He was going away to prepare a place for us - that where He was, there we may be also. So, this current world system is going away.

Jesus, is coming back with a Sword in His mouth! That does not sound like a stroll through the picnic grounds to me. That sounds like Armageddon to my ears. I stand with Jesus. He is my rock and my shield. Amen.

I have an uncle who is caught up in this satanic cult and he is now of a reprobate mind because of it, so I'll be right here when you are ready to talk about it sensibly and reasonably.

We all have stumbling blocks along the way and sin is sin, no matter what "degree" we my think it to be. God's grace and mercy are well beyond our comprehension but not beyond our grasp whilst Jesus has not yet returned.

Ephesians 2:8-9

(8) "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:"

(9) "Not of works, lest any man should boast."

My prayer is all of God's love, wisdom and discernment to you.

… you were given a gift. Most people are left wondering - is it real? How can they be so sure? some have cried out to God for lifetime - please show me something. You got what they wanted. The Lord's gifts are given without repentance - it is yours no one will take it from you.

I had a God experience, that I can never deny and when doubt comes in.. I have only to remember that day. It is truly a gift. I have told everyone who would listen for 30 years. You took your gift and hid it away. Why?

This man a mason …comes to you with an open heart to encourage you and you rail him into the ground. Yes you are right on every word… so how could you be so right yet be so so wrong. No love. No gratitude for his thoughtfulness? Is that how Christ reached people?
As one who went through a cult (LDS) I can promise you that you will never convert someone through proving a fallacy. Jesus said, if I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me. So lift Christ and speak gently and with love to those who 'you think' are in error. Maybe then you will know God in the way you are seeking.
My guess is 'intellectual superiority'… its a stumbling block for so many. So full of knowledge their heads so full of doctrine their hearts barely touched. I was an atheist, the day I got saved, Jesus poured a knowledge of Himself into me, I knew nothing of doctrines, nothing of creeds, yet I knew Jesus was real…. the LDS (mormons) came to my door a few days later I thought God sent them… really! After about 15 months of listening to them talk about Jos.Smith and all I could talk about was Jesus Christ. I realized I was in the wrong church. I couldn't prove them wrong but the Lord was leading me anyway. My point. I was a Mormon but I was saved, I was wrong, but I was saved. Salvation doesn't come through correct doctrine… not to belittle sound doctrine. But I was saved, totally ignorant of any doctrine. So why do you put so much emphasis on it? What does the Bible say you must do to be saved?

I would encourage you to lay aside your doctrines, go to a small Spirit filled church and listen with your heart. Learn to love the ignorant and lost, those too dumb or uneducated to understand creeds and theological arguments. Thats who Jesus went to. Seems to me that hand was a gift yet unopened.
God bless, andrea

mark kennedy · Nov 15, 2013

Assyrian said:
I like it

Does that mean you are going to bible college Mark or was that a while ago?

I started at the Nazarene Bible College here in Colorado Springs this September.

Simpleman25 · Nov 15, 2013

[bless and do not curse]

Satan said essentially the same exact thing you are saying right now. That God's Word is not relevant.

Simpleman25 · Nov 15, 2013

Originally Posted by Cessna 172

Papias,

Thank you. Yo make some really valid points.

I underlined your use of unity to bring out another point related to the current Christian Unity Movement. Whether or not it should be called a "movement" is not necessarily the point I want to bring out, but whether or not the principle is even Biblical, is where I wanted to focus.

Have Christians taken the time to study their authentic history? And, is that understanding sufficient or required before "uniting" with others who call themselves "Christians?"

There are Mormons, for example who call themselves Christian. As we have seen in this thread, there are Masons who call themselves Christian. There are Holy Roman Catholics who call themselves Christian. Going down the list of various faiths, sects, bulwarks of religious organizations and factions throughout the world, we can see people taking on the label of "Christian." Yet, they all might have very different ideas, doctrines and formulations for what being a "Christian" means to them. How does anyone unite such diverse opinion and belief about what it means to be a "Christian?"

The idea of unity sounds remarkably sane and coherent and very natural. It is the nature of human beings to want to be united in a sense of wholeness and completeness. However, I sense that the unity movement should probably take the time to ask the question: What does being a Christian truly mean and what does the Bible have to say about Christianity, if anything at all?

Many will give the answer, no doubt, that being a Christian simply means nothing more than being Christ-like, or Christ-centered, or Christ-focused, or Christ-oriented before any other orientation. But, is this the definition that defines true Christianity?

What does the Baptist have in common with the Mormon, as just one of many examples that can be used. Both produce nice sermons where the name Jesus is used. Both, talk about and use Jesus as object lessons in their respective teachings. Is it enough to simply - leave it at that and use that alone as the basis for "unity" between Baptist and Mormons in Christianity?

To belong to the Mormon church is to belong to the Occult. Why? Because of its foundational teachings, philosophy and origins. Mormons believe that Joseph Smith was a literal prophet and that God worked through Joseph, to restore the Gospel of Jesus Christ back to the world. Mormons believe that "many churches, even non-Christian churches have part of the truth that can bring people [us] back to live with God and Jesus Christ, after this mortal life is over." Baptist, don't believe that. So, how does the unity movement go about uniting these completely dissimilar theological belief systems.

Take the Catholic church today. Most Catholic mass ceremonies involve repetitive type prayers offered in this way: "Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen." The elevation of Mary, to the status of a deity, is what the church has accomplished in the minds of its flock. How does the unity movement unite that with Christians who place no one on the level whereby they are offered prayers, other than God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit? How would something like this get reconciled in the annual Christian unity meetings.

My point is this, aren't true Christians already united and don't we already know who they are by what the Bible says on the subject?

Matthew 7:15-20

(15) "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves."

(16) "You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles?"

(17) "Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit."

(18) "A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit."

(19) "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."

(20) "Therefore by their fruits you will know them."

I like unity among Christians, and I think it is a great idea. But, who ever said that Christians were not already united?

I think this is a wonderful subject, because it really does get to the core of orthodox Christian theology as compared to the liberalization of Christianity that has taken place probably since time and memorial.

What does being a genuine Christian really mean. To what epoch in Christianity can we return to in history where we can find a singular Christian Church, doing precisely what Jesus had instructed while He was here on earth?

That seems like one of the biggest and most important questions that any Christian can ask themselves and it is the primary reason why I intend to study far more in depth, what the 1st, 2nd and 3rd century Churches truly looked like on a daily basis. They were the closest to Jesus' life here on earth. They walked in the same towns and villages as Jesus' disciples. They knew the early Church Priests who came after many of the disciples who were slain for their following of Jesus. And, many of them walked in those same footsteps as the New Testament was actually being written.

These are the Christians I wish to know more about, because they knew not of Joseph Smith and they made no prayers to Mary. They seem to have been a different 'breed' of Christian. A breed that I think all post-modern Christians should stop and take a closer look at.

Just a thought.

My God's blessings be upon you.

Originally Posted by Andrea411

… you were given a gift. Most people are left wondering - is it real? How can they be so sure? some have cried out to God for lifetime - please show me something. You got what they wanted. The Lord's gifts are given without repentance - it is yours no one will take it from you.

I had a God experience, that I can never deny and when doubt comes in.. I have only to remember that day. It is truly a gift. I have told everyone who would listen for 30 years. You took your gift and hid it away. Why?

This man a mason …comes to you with an open heart to encourage you and you rail him into the ground. Yes you are right on every word… so how could you be so right yet be so so wrong. No love. No gratitude for his thoughtfulness? Is that how Christ reached people?
As one who went through a cult (LDS) I can promise you that you will never convert someone through proving a fallacy. Jesus said, if I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me. So lift Christ and speak gently and with love to those who 'you think' are in error. Maybe then you will know God in the way you are seeking.
My guess is 'intellectual superiority'… its a stumbling block for so many. So full of knowledge their heads so full of doctrine their hearts barely touched. I was an atheist, the day I got saved, Jesus poured a knowledge of Himself into me, I knew nothing of doctrines, nothing of creeds, yet I knew Jesus was real…. the LDS (mormons) came to my door a few days later I thought God sent them… really! After about 15 months of listening to them talk about Jos.Smith and all I could talk about was Jesus Christ. I realized I was in the wrong church. I couldn't prove them wrong but the Lord was leading me anyway. My point. I was a Mormon but I was saved, I was wrong, but I was saved. Salvation doesn't come through correct doctrine… not to belittle sound doctrine. But I was saved, totally ignorant of any doctrine. So why do you put so much emphasis on it? What does the Bible say you must do to be saved?

I would encourage you to lay aside your doctrines, go to a small Spirit filled church and listen with your heart. Learn to love the ignorant and lost, those too dumb or uneducated to understand creeds and theological arguments. Thats who Jesus went to. Seems to me that hand was a gift yet unopened.
God bless, andrea

Andrea........God bless you lady!

While it is apparent you and I differ on what truly is a cult, we can totally agree on one thing. God's love will triumph all!

I've said for years that if true Christians would lay down or swords against each other, we could join together and praise God to the masses! How many people could we convert to Christianity?

To many Christians want to believe they know the only way to heaven. We spend far to much time battling each other.

Cessna 172 · Nov 15, 2013

Thank you very much for your post, Andrea411.

Andrea411 said:
… you were given a gift. Most people are left wondering - is it real?

A gift without a gift card cannot be identified. It is sort of like dropping a letter from a distance in the mail without leaving a return address. If you read the post well, you will note that it happened while at elementary school age. I did not even know what my own earthly father's hand felt like in a loving connection, let alone the Hand of God!

Being able to therefore, identify the source (which is what I said I struggled with at first but then later realized the source at a later time in life - maybe not written clearly enough) at such a young age right off the bat, might be asking a bit much. Asking an elementary school kid to then 'share such a gift with the rest of the world,' is likewise probably asking for that which is beyond a 10 year old.

Andrea411 said:
I had a God experience, that I can never deny and when doubt comes in.. I have only to remember that day. It is truly a gift. I have told everyone who would listen for 30 years. You took your gift and hid it away. Why?

Because, at 10, I did not recognize it as such and struggled for a long time trying to reconcile the encounter by asking for some form of confirmation as to whether or not it truly came from God, but never received it until later in life.

Here's the moral of that story. How many people say they have encountered a vision of Mary? How many of those people pray to Mary? What did God say the He would do when people persist in worshiping any other God but Himself?

When God continually told the people of Israel to do one thing and they insisted on doing something different, He finally let them become deluded in their thought process and turned them over to what they wanted. Somehow, even as a kid, I wanted confirmation and did not get that until much later in life. I specifically said that there was no audible component to my experience.

When Moses stood on holy ground on Mt. Sinai, before the burning bush, he got either direct audible confirmation or direct Spiritual confirmation that God was indeed the author of the experience. Moses, was also a very mature man at that time as well. He did not have the mind of a child and he was given express instructions about what he was supposed to do next. I got none of that at age 10.

Andrea411 said:
This man a mason …

And, by definition that means an Occultist.

Andrea411 said:
...comes to you with an open heart to encourage you and you rail him into the ground.

Here's what really happened. He was offered information that should help him escape the occult, as opposed to information that would see him continue to pay homage to a man made religion that can't save him, can't free him from the punishment of sin, can't raise his corruptible body to an incorruptible body and cannot enter into the presence of God Almighty, because he was engaged in the practice of bonding with demons at various 'degrees' either aware of what he was doing, or completely unaware of what he was doing.

This Spiritual war we are in every day of our lives is not a game and it is not to be taken lightly. No sincere Christian can dabble in the Occult.

Andrea411 said:
...No love. No gratitude for his thoughtfulness? Is that how Christ reached people?

Unfortunately, that's the "meek and mild" fallacy that is all too often dragged into conversations by people who either do not understand who Jesus really was, or are attempting to levy an attack on what a real Christian should be all about.

Let's be clear - Jesus, was no "meek and mild" character, sheepishly wondering about the hills of Nazareth. Jesus, was a revolutionary! He was very dynamic! He was world changing whirlwind right before the eyes of those who were so fortunate to have walked with Him. He was passionate! He was on fire for God! He railed at the Sadducees and Pharisees all the time. He overthrow the money changers' tables and whipped people out of his Father's Temple and His nostrils more than likely flared as He saw them scurrying for cover.

Yes. God is Love, but He is also Just, Faithful and True. How do you expect God to continue tolerating people who bond themselves to demonic energy through their paganistic rituals and rights of "illuminated passage?" And, why is simply outlining and explaining that an example of not showing compassion, love and sensitivity? At what point did simply telling the truth ever become offensive? Who can be offended by the truth, other than those who wish to wallow in its antithesis?

1 John 3:8

(8) "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil."

Jesus, came to destroy the works of the devil, not coddle up to them or pay homage to them, or tolerate them - but to obliterate them.

Revelation 19:

(15) "And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God."

(17) "And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;"

(18) "That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great."

(20) "And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."

(21) "And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh."

That is flat out horrifying to read. There is nothing "meek and mild" about this and this is yet still to come upon the earth. The writer of Revelation did not hold back here, he did not shrivel up to contemplate the feelings of his readers. He simply tells of the prophecy exactly the way God wants it to be told. Why? Because God is Love but He's also not going to sugar coat His wrath when Christ returns. No one will be calling Jesus, "meek and mild" upon His return to this earth.

Notice what's going on here in Revelation. Jesus, is coming back to take what belongs to Him. He's not coming back to politely ask for it. He is going to take it by the use of massive Spiritual force. Yes. There will be blood. Lot's of it.

So, let us please dispense with the "meek and mild" rhetoric that has never been what Jesus, was all about. Was he polite? Yes. Was he kind? Yes. Was he loving? Yes. Was he sensitive? Yes. Did he care about your feelings? Yes. Did he weep for Lazarus? Yes. Did he compassionately feed the multitudes with five loaves and two fish? Yes. What Jesus "meek and mild?" NO! He was fierce in His love and would not have offered bad doctrine or the notion that demonic bonding was somehow 'ok' with Him or God the Father. Of that, anyone can be certain.

That this man get out of the cult called freemasonry, was my only concern. That this man come to the understanding about the history of the symbolism being used in freemasonry and how it is directly connected with a pagan god, was my only concern. That this man fully understood that Christianity and masonry do not mix on any level or to any degree was my only concern.

Andrea411 said:
As one who went through a cult (LDS) I can promise you that you will never convert someone through proving a fallacy...

How do you lift up Jesus, without also lifting up the Absolute Truth? All I have posted was the Absolute Truth about freemasonry, the occult and the ancient pagan god remphan. That's not attempting to prove a fallacy, that's merely lifting up the Absolute Truth.

Throughout my replies, I also wrote about God's grace and His love sufficient to make Jesus that sacrificial Lamb that takes away sin and clears a path back to a relationship with God - but that such a path cannot be walked while simultaneously practicing Demonic Bonding - whether he know it as such or not.

Andrea411 said:
My guess is 'intellectual superiority'… its a stumbling block for so many.

Try re-reading the post in full and in context. It clearly includes compassion for the individual, but zero tolerance for Demonic Worship - which is precisely where it should be. It was balanced but it was truthful.

Andrea411 said:
So full of knowledge their heads so full of doctrine their hearts barely touched.

How else do you deliver the truth without delivering the truth? If you want to see him delivered, then how does that take place absent the Absolute Truth be told about what he's engaged with by opening up holes into this realm with demonic ritual practices?

He has to be made aware of what's going on and somebody has to explain it to him, because he would not be involved if he already knew. The Spirit should tell any Christian that much. And, there is no way possible to make him aware, absent making him aware of the Absolute Truth.

Andrea411 said:
After about 15 months of listening to them talk about Jos.Smith and all I could talk about was Jesus Christ. I realized I was in the wrong church.

I am so glad to hear you say that! Praise God, that He gave you such a Spirit to discern the cult of Mormon! Many still don't have that level of discernment and many are still engaged in the occult because someone has not yet shared the Absolute Truth about God the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ - but also because probably no one has shared the history of the Mormon church, its founding and its man made principles in juxtaposition to traditional occult frameworks. This what I have tried to do in here.

Andrea411 said:
So why do you put so much emphasis on it? What does the Bible say you must do to be saved?

I think I have already quoted John 3:16 in this thread in relation to this question. Having said that - what is doctrine? Often times we use words because we are used to them in our own culture or our own country, or our own particular locality. If you study the word 'Doctrine' then you would see that John 3:16 is the cornerstone doctrine for all Christian faith.

So, when you allude to John 3:16 on the heels of saying that you knew no doctrine, I would say that's not quite right. John 3:16 is the purest form of Doctrine you will ever find anywhere in the Bible, because it specifies the method, mode and means of salvation. Method, mode and means specifies doctrinal requirements.

In other words and to answer your question, one cannot possibly be saved according to the Bible, outside of adherence to the doctrine of John 3:16. It is by the Grace of God contained in and through the doctrine of John 3:16, that all men are saved, backed up by Ephesians 2:8. How do we know? Simple. If you fail to adhere to the tenets of John 3:16, then you cannot possibly be saved. John 3:16 does have a requirement. The individual has to do something in order to trigger the benefits contained in John 3:16.

One of the definitions of the word "Doctrine" is "tenet." Meaning a principle or a protocol that is adhered to. The principle or protcol requirement of John 3:16, is that the individual must "believe" in Jesus. It is one of the shortest, yet the most powerful doctrine in all of Christianity.

That just goes to show you how God works, because He took the smallest doctrine in the entire Bible called "belief" [one solitary word] and attached something as large as eternal life to its outcome. What an amazing and wonderful Heavenly Father!

I humbly respect your opinion, Andrea. However, I do hope that you see the distinctions that were made are not without a difference and the sincerity and sensitivity with which they were made are not without home.

My pray is that God continues to bless you always!

Cessna 172 · Nov 15, 2013

Simpleman25 said:
I've said for years that if true Christians would lay down or swords against each other, we could join together and praise God to the masses! How many people could we convert to Christianity?

True Christians already know that it is the Holy Spirit that does the work of conversion in the heart, made possible by the Grace of God the Father. No human being is capable of effecting conversion. This is why no religious crusade on earth has ever been successful in converting anyone to Christianity. If the conversion does not take place with the Holy Spirit, it does not take place.

Simpleman25 said:
To many Christians want to believe they know the only way to heaven. We spend far to much time battling each other.

God's Word and God's Word alone specifies the path to heaven. God, was very specific about fellowship among believers. In fact, here's what he had to say.

2 Corinthians 6:14-18

(14) "Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

(15) "And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?"

(16) "And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people."

(17) "Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,"

(18) "And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty."

May the Lord add a blessing to the reading of His Word.

There is no doubt that God, was well aware that the fellowship of believers and unbelievers was not acceptable in His eyes. Anyone practicing in the occult, using pagan symbology that represents pagan gods, working to bond with demonic energies and demonic forces by progressing through a series of stepwise "degrees" of so-called "illumination and enlightenment" whether knowingly or unknowingly, is by any definition a non-believer in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

Why?

Because, all believers in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior already know Him to be sufficient for the edification in all areas of human and Spiritual existence and/or growth and that worship in ANY form of idolatry, symbolism, mysticism, monasticism, esotericism, witchcraft, alchemy or otherwise, is an abomination to God the Father.

I do sincerely believe that God wants communion with all His people, but I believe He wants that communion done in His way, which does not include alignment with pagan rituals, pagan deities, pagan symbols and synthetic man made processes of enlightenment and artificial illumination.

Mark 4:9

(9) "And he said unto them, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear."

mark kennedy · Nov 15, 2013

Cessna 172 said:
Hello There Mark!

God bless you and thanks for your reply.

I've pretty much concluded that the "Hand" was from God. My problem has always been the "why" and "for what purpose." I've always had a difficult time understanding an encounter like that, without some kind of follow-through or follow-up that leads one to do something in response of the encounter. In other words, dare I say it, for the individual to then have some kind of "mission" to perform. In response that I can hear someone saying, 'then go out and stand on the street corner and start calling souls to Christ!' That would not be a dishonest answer, either and that would be a "mission."

However, being touched like that is an amazing thing to have happen and my human side (which is what I am) -vs- my Spiritual side, wants to think that such an experience should correlate with some kind of "larger mission" of some kind, which never happened. Sort of like, Big Hand, Big Mission. But, maybe that simplistic kind of syllogistic thinking is too shallow and too inadequate for what God had in Mind.

I have really just come to accept the fact that some people are given larger tasks than others. In the end, it is all about what God desires - not what I necessarily want, or think I should have. But, boy! That Hand was WONDERFUL and I wish I could experience it every single day of my life in this world - especially, in this world. I dearly and deeply miss God's touch.

I wonder if it has anything to do with the way we will feel when we get new bodies. Hey - I have no idea. And, I don't want to get too caught up in the physical. Yet, how do I know that was not a Spiritual encounter with God! The point is - we just don't know, yet. We don't have the post-rapture body at this time, so we can't fully understand what that will be like until we get one!

Anyway, I've pretty much accepted things the way they are at this point. I was just looking for others who might have had the same or similar experience as I had - to compare notes.

Now, about the other issues...

I don't think an experience like that is a sign, per se, I think it's just an experience meant to be...I can't think of another way of saying it...a way of getting acquainted. After something like that what you want is not another audio visual sign but something deeper and more important, something daily.

Thanks for the intro to Biblical Symbolism. I pretty much had that part taken care of, however. In my original question, I was attempting to describe the difficulty that I and others have with scriptural interpretations involving instances where the Bible uses language that is not clearly symbolic as in Rev. 1:12-16.

Rev. 1:12-16, is one of those really easy interpretive opportunities where the scripture just overflows with highly descriptive symbolism. Descriptive text is fairly easy to interpret as being symbolic, so no problems there. However, I was referring to text that was Demonstrative. Demonstrative text where the writer is establishing a fact of history taking place at a literal longitude and latitude somewhere on earth, but where the entire story or parts of the story are often couched in allegory, shadows and types.

That was kind of what I was getting to, the manifestation was literal, Christ in his glorified form described in figurative language. Genesis has very little of that kind of language, an allegorical interpretation has no basis in the language being used.

An example of this would be pretty much all of Genesis 1. This has been argued by many far more eloquently than I ever will, but it does make my point rather firmly. Clearly, any portion of scripture that would pre-date the creation of Adam, must could not have been brought into existence without the divine guidance of God. Modern scholarship in the aggregate is comfortable with the idea that Genesis was authored by multiple individuals who wrote and collected ancient oral Jewish traditions from the time of Hezekiah. The Documentary theory is one that essentially puts Genesis together from a collection of ancient writings covering the period from about 850 B.C. to 500 B.C. and from four different sources: Elohist, Jehovist, Deuteronomist and Priestly documents respectively. [but I digress]

No, your right on track, the time frame up until Abraham is considered nonhistoric. Primeval is the word they like to use, it's considered a relic. The truth is the Genesis is foundational and if unbelievers can create substantive doubt at this point it's transcendant. I haven't dug into JEPD just yet but it's based on literary features and I have to get better acquainted with the Hebrew before I have a serious opinion, went through the same process with the evidencial arguments. One thing I've figured out, J and E are not indicative of different authorship, that much is readily discernable.

The point is that one really need not go beyond Genesis before one begins to encounter this issue that I refer to above about when to be literal and when to be allegoric. One of the first stops along the way in this journey is Genesis 3. In that chapter, you have the Bible saying "...and he said unto the woman...". Well, at that point you know you are being told that the Serpent was doing the talking. That's where I have difficulty. What was the writer saying? Either one of three (3) things must be true:

a) The writer was using allegory to assert a principle and the Serpent did not actually speak using vocal chords.

b) The writer was being literal and the Serpent spoke using vocal chords.

c) The Serpent represents a spirit that is not of God, but that of lucifer and both Adam and Eve were capable of communication with both.

d) The writer made it all up from whole cloth.

I cannot accept "d" under any circumstance, as that would preclude the conversation ever took place, which by definition precludes original sin as per the Bible. That leaves me with "A,"B," and "C."

Serpent is more of a proper name, not a literal snake. When Adam was naming the animals it says there was not found a suitable mate, our modern minds will automatically ask, 'where they looking for a mate among the animals'? The actual answer is that Adam didn't have a suitable mate and that is the prevailing theme. When Eve was created for Adam it's the same reason Adam was created from the earth, from the earth for the earth. It's amazing how many Christians can't make basic insights, as a matter of fact, it's downright disturbing.

If "A" is true, then original sin still entered the world through the decisions made by Adam and Eve, but they took place in a way the writer was not made made privy and this was the method God selected to introduce the story to the rest of the world.

If "B" is true, then it is quite possible that our modern understanding of the true nature of the Serpent is not compatible with that of Genesis. In other words, the Serpent may indeed have had the ability to speak.

Indefensible.

If "C" is true, then both Adam and Eve must have had an ability to be receptive to the Spirit realm in a way that we simply do not either understand today, or have access to in our present condition. Therefore, just as you could hear my audible voice speaking to you, if you were standing directly in front of me, Eve would have been able to "hear" the Serpent in the spirit "speaking" to her.

Your still imagining an actual snake.

This is the only way I can reconcile Genesis 3, but this does give you the kind of challenges that I and many other face (including yourself I would imagine) on a regular basis when reading the Bible.

Now, I realize that this flies in the face of those who believe the Bible should be taken literally upon every turn of the page. But, then if that were true - using your Revelation 1:12-16 example - it would place literal "feet" made of literal "brass" on something that only appeared to be Jesus. And, that opens the door to a whole lot more speculation about what scripture says.

Feet 'like' brazen brass', the language is indicative of a comparison.

So, we both agree! There are times when interpretation hinges upon that which is literal and that which is symbolic and/or allegoric in its meaning. Talking serpents and feet made of metal, might qualify as opportunities to exercise good judgement and see the allegory for what it is.

That's just it, it's not an allegory and it's not a literal snake, it's a proper name and it's used again in the Revelation.

He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. (Rev. 20:2)

Thus, either "B" or "C" seem like viable candidates. In the case of "B" all one has to conclude is that God is God and I am not. Therefore, if God wants to allow a Serpent to push air through its mouth and form audible sounds that Eve could hear and understand, then that is precisely what God has the right and the authority to do. I have no argument at all with "B" on those grounds.

I think that's leading you down a blind alley in the dark.

In the case of "C" all one has to remember is that the world Adam and Eve inherited was absolutely perfect in every respect. I have thought about this for quite some time now and it would seem to me that they air they breathed, the land they walked on, the water they drank, all of it was entire different than what we have today for a planet. In such a state or condition, it is quite possible that God gave Adam and Eve a highly tuned receiver for things in the Spirit realm. A receiver that was lost on humanity after God original sin entered the world. Likewise, I have no argument with "C" as well.

They would have been more open to spiritual realities, that much is sure.

Personally, I like "C" the best. This was the place where God dwelt - literally. The Bible says that the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. So, He was literally right here on earth with both Adam and Eve. Since God is Spirit, Adam and Eve must have had a capacity to communicate in the Spirit, that we simply do not recognize, understand or comprehend today.

Your getting close, ask the question, why call the Devil the 'Serpent'?

Well, this is how I try to go about "studying" and "rightly dividing scripture." I don't always come to well reasoned conclusions, however. There are some aspects of scripture that seem to well beyond my ability to decode in this way.

Lots of people pray when they read scripture and still different people come up with different interpretations - especially when they are reading from two different versions of the Bible, which is one of the great problems that I have with too many denominations and too many differentially translated texts resulting in a wide number of Biblical versions.

Thanks again for the help and the reference links and God bless you!

Your doing fine, don't rush it. I'll be back when I have more time and we can talk some more.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Simpleman25 · Nov 15, 2013

Cessna 172 said:
True Christians already know that it is the Holy Spirit that does the work of conversion in the heart, made possible by the Grace of God the Father. No human being is capable of effecting conversion. This is why no religious crusade on earth has ever been successful in converting anyone to Christianity. If the conversion does not take place with the Holy Spirit, it does not take place.

God's Word and God's Word alone specifies the path to heaven. God, was very specific about fellowship among believers. In fact, here's what he had to say.

2 Corinthians 6:14-18

(14) "Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

(15) "And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?"

(16) "And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people."

(17) "Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,"

(18) "And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty."

May the Lord add a blessing to the reading of His Word.

There is no doubt that God, was well aware that the fellowship of believers and unbelievers was not acceptable in His eyes. Anyone practicing in the occult, using pagan symbology that represents pagan gods, working to bond with demonic energies and demonic forces by progressing through a series of stepwise "degrees" of so-called "illumination and enlightenment" whether knowingly or unknowingly, is by any definition a non-believer in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

Why?

Because, all believers in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior already know Him to be sufficient for the edification in all areas of human and Spiritual existence and/or growth and that worship in ANY form of idolatry, symbolism, mysticism, monasticism, esotericism, witchcraft, alchemy or otherwise, is an abomination to God the Father.

I do sincerely believe that God wants communion with all His people, but I believe He wants that communion done in His way, which does not include alignment with pagan rituals, pagan deities, pagan symbols and synthetic man made processes of enlightenment and artificial illumination.

Mark 4:9

(9) "And he said unto them, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear."

My comments were not directed to you.

Until you recognize your error and apologize, we are through.

Andrea411 · Nov 15, 2013

Cessna 172 said:
Thank you very much for your post, Andrea411.

And, by definition that means an Occultist.

Here's what really happened. He was offered information that should help him escape the occult, as opposed to information that would see him continue to pay homage to a man made religion that can't save him, can't free him from the punishment of sin, can't raise his corruptible body to an incorruptible body and cannot enter into the presence of God Almighty, because he was engaged in the practice of bonding with demons at various 'degrees' either aware of what he was doing, or completely unaware of what he was doing.

This Spiritual war we are in every day of our lives is not a game and it is not to be taken lightly. No sincere Christian can dabble in the Occult.

Unfortunately, that's the "meek and mild" fallacy that is all too often dragged into conversations by people who either do not understand who Jesus really was, or are attempting to levy an attack on what a real Christian should be all about.

Let's be clear - Jesus, was no "meek and mild" character, sheepishly wondering about the hills of Nazareth. Jesus, was a revolutionary! He was very dynamic! He was world changing whirlwind right before the eyes of those who were so fortunate to have walked with Him. He was passionate! He was on fire for God! He railed at the Sadducees and Pharisees all the time. He overthrow the money changers' tables and whipped people out of his Father's Temple and His nostrils more than likely flared as He saw them scurrying for cover.

Yes. God is Love, but He is also Just, Faithful and True. How do you expect God to continue tolerating people who bond themselves to demonic energy through their paganistic rituals and rights of "illuminated passage?" And, why is simply outlining and explaining that an example of not showing compassion, love and sensitivity? At what point did simply telling the truth ever become offensive? Who can be offended by the truth, other than those who wish to wallow in its antithesis?

..(deleted bc the post was too long)
That this man get out of the cult called freemasonry, was my only concern. That this man come to the understanding about the history of the symbolism being used in freemasonry and how it is directly connected with a pagan god, was my only concern. That this man fully understood that Christianity and masonry do not mix on any level or to any degree was my only concern.
(DELETED BC IT WAS TOO LONG TO POST)
My pray is that God continues to bless you always!
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long story short on this path we are all walking, falling, getting up again, stumbling, and hopefully headed in the right direction. If our eyes are on Christ we are certain even though we might be unfaithful or even faithless. He is certainly faithful. If we hold fast to that thing that brought us to Christ our heart full of Him and we are willing to submit to the Holy Spirit who draws us toward Him then all the stuff between is just one or another stumbling block that while we are 'faithing' in Him He will show us and grow us even if that means we walk through Mormonism or Masonry or bad theology. Even deception.
While we are told to exhort, educate and encourage - it is done with humility, gentleness and prayerfully.
You are a very intelligent person, most people are not. Most people represent the average person. They follow Christ in their hearts and He answers. If we tell God how He is to be acceptable to us its not likely He responds and we are unlikely to notice that He has never left us or forsaken us. It is we who walk away. You have labeled this man an occultist but he has told you he is a Christian. If he is in error then surely it is a good thing to point to the error. He asked your response was 'intellectual' unemotional and unloving. (please don't give me the line about truth being loving). I understand the difference. The point I am trying to make to you you not the mason is that you have missed something so wonderful and so simple. the gift. It is an opportunity to share your faith. I have had the Lord speak out loud to me, tell me things and answer many prayers always always they are gifts to be shared. You wanted to know why did the Lord allow that to happen to you. It is always the simplest answer. to point to Jesus. I have shared how the Lord touched me, revealed Himself to me in line at Shoprite, at Home Depot, where I work anywhere that someone will listen. He is real He has touched me. go ask Him yourself. I can only tell you what He did for me. and you have that in this amazing story.
Theological debates are only good for mature Christians, they are not good for unbelievers, new Christians, or people who are involved in something they believe in but might be missing the mark. You won't convert a Mormon by proving J.Smith was a fraud go on any ex-mormon site. You will see a bunch of disillusioned atheists. Masonry is similar - it walks along side of Christianity pretending to be its cousin or a great choice among many. It is not. But Christ is always the answer, not our intellectual arguments. More of Him less of us. the Holy Spirit really does do His job, we are only allowed to participate and then it is for our own growth. The moment we think we are too smart, too well read, too well learned for these people - we are too lost to notice.
I suggested you join a small start up church and try being the student not the teacher. it is humbling and life changing. Heart changing.
you have so much to offer but no one to offer it to bc you only know your truth and are not listening to theirs try sharing with the Mason, why he likes masonry. Share why you have doubts about it. Ask him what he does when he encounters things that might be objectionable to a Christian. Spouting scripture and telling someone they are unsaved and an occultist - to someone who has just shared a part of their lives with you and you demeaned him that does not bring change and only hardens hearts.
What that man saw in you, I saw. You have a set of beliefs and he has a set and there is no weight to yours bc you did not engage him bc you did not take the time to love him where he is. In you I see all head knowledge not heart knowledge. Head knowledge is wonderful and exciting, edifying and at times entertaining. I used to love a good debate until I saw so much ugliness in Christians - so so disheartening. "I will know you by how you love one another" not by how often you prove the other guy wrong.
Yes, you can be a Christian and be a mason. You may pay heavily for it it can open up avenues for the occult to attack. It can also open up doors to help others and that is probably what this guy sees in them. It is good to share what is dangerous about Masonry but 'IMO' he didn't hear a word you said. after you told him he wasn't really a Christian bc you can't be both???
Why? Bc you decided? He is a misguided Christian, who may very well have many things he could teach you but you will never know bc you shut that door in his face.
Do you still want to know why others have this wonderful relationship with Christ and you are just an observer sorry to dig at a wound you shared. Really. If you want to know you must lay aside your own ego and approach the Lord as a child. and please do not tell others who claim to be Christians, they are not saved. I know many Catholics and Baptists, etc people of all denominations have genuine differences in the way they express their relationship with Christ. Some of them have to be wrong. I don't think the Lord could stand half of us if we were saved and 'RIGHT'. When we are unsure of ourselves it tends to make us lean on Him more. When we are so sure of ourselves, it is almost certain we are not leaning on Christ.
God bless, andrea

Assyrian · Nov 16, 2013

mark kennedy said:
I started at the Nazarene Bible College here in Colorado Springs this September.

That's great. I pray you will be blessed and encouraged and really grow in the Lord and in the knowledge and understanding of his word.

Angeldove97 · Nov 16, 2013

A reminder- please do not state that certain people are or are not Christians - ChristianForums has a Statement of Faith that we use and if a Christian believes in those tenants, in most cases, they can be defined as a Christian.

Please refer to this for more information- http://www.christianforums.com/t7278090/

Please also do not say that what a person is including in their post is exactly what Satan has said. That's insulting and in some cases false. Discuss the topic- but don't pull that "oh that's what Satan says" or "oh that's what Satan wants you to think" nonsense. That's goading another member on and does not add anything to the discussion.

Cessna 172 · Nov 21, 2013

Simpleman25 said:
Until you recognize your error and apologize, we are through.

May the light of the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob shine on this thread and may the blood of His Son Jesus the Christ be sufficient to cover all who seek eternal shelter in the absolute truth of His being and His purpose.

Causation Determines Compatibility

To understand anything, one must research the source and origin of the thing to be understood and then accept the absolute truth of the thing having been studied. To that end, God in His infinite wisdom created this universe to function on the principle known as causation.

Causation instantiates time, space and matter. Thus, without causation, according to the rules that God Himself established, there would be no universe. He used causation, what we find in thermodynamics, as the launching point for everything encompassed by time, space and matter within the universe that He created. Only God Himself sits beyond the principle of causation. And, with this principle understood, we retrace the event horizon of all recorded human activity to date. This is how I know that being a freemason is not the same as being a Christian. It is not because of what you say, or what I say about the matter - but because of what causation reveals about the history of both ideas.

Why is it important to understand causation and what does thermodynamics have to do with whether or not one can be a freemason and a Christian at the same time?

Because both freemasonry and Christianity have an historical source and origin that explains their existence on our planet. Anything having a beginning, cannot be infinite and therefore, must have a point of instantiation - otherwise known as causation.

Therefore, we can go back in time and trace the root causation of both freemasonry and Christianity, and then compare and contrast each one to determine whether or not they are in fact compatible.

The Root of ALL Spiritual Wickedness in the Earth

The original causation for freemasonry is the exact same as that of any cult practice. It dates back to before the time of the First Adam, when lucifer attempted to exalt himself to a position in Heaven equal to or greater than that of God Himself. We know that there was an epic battle in Heaven, unlike any we have seen on this earth and it resulted in lucifer and his followers losing their "first estate." and "their own habitation." Jude 1:6. These were the fallen angels.

Through the corridors of time, this eventually lead to the causation that brought humanity to the Tower of Babel, eventually the first great empire of Babylon, Cush and finally Nimrod himself, upon which all future Greek and Roman pagan worship and idolatry would rest their unabashed satanic feet. This begins the explanation for "mystery of Babylon" and it explains why we incorrectly celebrate the ancient pagan sun god through our annual "Christmas" ceremonies. This is also the launching point for explaining how Constantine and the Papacy in Rome, instantiated the causation that ultimately resulted in the spread of Nicolaitanism and its modern transformation into Luciferianism and eventually the so-called Enlightened Occults which includes Freemasonry among others.

Eventually you arrive at power structure of Vatican City and Antichrist, his system of government corruption worldwide and religious entanglement having its own causation in the heart of ancient Roman history. We can trace the root cause for the creation of the seat of the anti-christ, as well as the false church and its Jesuit apparatus that would ultimately be felt around the world and inside world governments to come. All of it having its roots in Rome, which picks up its cues from Ancient Babylon and the worship of pagan deity.

The Myth About Nicolaitanism

Nicolaitanism ('conquering the lay people') spread throughout Rome and was concentrated within the heart of the city. The big (massive) lie of the modern era is that Nicolaitanism died a premature death in Pergamum and Thyatira. This is false. The name Nicolaitanism faded away, but its ideology ('conquering the lay people') was picked up by Constantine, the Roman church and now sits at the heart of today's gnostic based secret societies such as freemasonry, et-al (whether you are aware of it or not is another matter).

The Nicholaitan movement is the secret origin of what most call "christianity" (in reality the false church) today. It was embedded into the common law for the western world through Imperial Rome and it was then passed on through Rome and it's previously alienated masons who now willingly parade the earth as true protestants - or those who claim to be "christian."

Nicolaitanism and its theology/ideology was syncretistic in that it embodied all of the "empire's" pagan ritualism of the day, including that of pedophilia which was practiced by the Roman clergy (something that continued in the catholic church for centuries without genuine rebuke by the Pope - an example of 'conquering the lay people'). It is the primary tenet of Nicolaitanism ('conquering the lay people') that remains synergistic with the doctrine practiced by the freemasons today which is called luciferianism. Like it or not, freemasonry is definitely of the occult.

The Hidden Meaning of Babel

Constantine, along with the papacy, only interested in 'conquering the lay people' were both instrumental in the mixing of the worship of God and the worship of satan together, by masking the true tenets of catholicism and the worship of pagan deity - which continues to this very day in the form of the catholic church's ecclesiastical rituals and practices, which at the core have nothing at all to do with Christianity.

So, what's the secret you ask? Here it is:

Tell the people they are worshiping God, when in reality, you make certain that they are worshiping the anti-christ.

What's the the proof you ponder? Here's just some of it:

No man should ever bow down to a Pope, let alone literally lay down on their face and stomach and worship him as he sits on his thrown.

Don't believe that actually takes place in Vatican City? Look it up. There are photos out there showing people on their face before the Pope. Not merely kissing his ring, but on their literal face as he exalts himself on par with God in this realm on earth.

This is what causes Spiritual confusion in the world about what the real Church is all about. However, we know this is of satan because God is not the author of confusion. The Tower of Babel is the current un-reformed Church and the "babel" is Spiritual confusion throughout the world within the false church. That confusion is propagated using a number of satan's tools, namely secret illuminated societies who do nothing more than perpetuate ancient pagan rituals while proclaiming to be holders of the "light of knowledge and of truth."

The modern occult is ALL satanic at the point of causation and we know the history behind it. We can trace its roots straight back to Nimrod, Babylon and the pagan ritual worship of false gods which was picked up by Greek and Roman empires and then spread throughout the known world. Today, that same pagan ideology can be seen in many of the so-called illuminated cults who are indeed luciferians - obtaining its doctrine from the Roman Rite that freely and openly equates lucifer to Christ.

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Cessna 172 · Nov 21, 2013

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The Ancient Roman Rite & The Rise of the New World Order

As Christians we are admonished to not create images of God, and we are certainly admonished not to engage in worship that attempts to symbolize God (idol worship). Yet, what is the image that you see in most so-called churches today? You guessed it. It is the so-called image of Jesus Christ and the symbol of the Cross - neither of which is Christian in origin.

The so-called image you see the false church using is not that of Jesus Christ, it is that of lucifer and it fits seamlessly into the doctrine of the Roman Rite, that establishes lucifer as Christ. This is the great deception impacting countless numbers of people around the world today who have been lured into the false church and its false doctrines, unaware. This is the limited (no doubt) power that has been given to the anti-christ and revealed in the Bible as such.

Here is what the Bible says about how we are to worship God:

John 4:19-26

The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet. Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.

Genuine Christians do not bow to other men - under any circumstances nor do they seek enlightenment from rooted pagan ritual:

Every Roman Rite based secret society (whether its members have been fully indoctrinated and made aware or not) is about one thing and one thing only: the restoration of the so-called Holy Roman Reich - aka - The New World Order.

The Roman Catholic Church has already declared that it retains primacy in any attempt to unite all Christian faiths under one holy doctrine. That means that just like the 1302 Papal Bull called Unam Sanctum, the Papacy will be the single source throughout the entire world for coordinating the efforts to unite all so-called Christian faiths under a singular doctrinal influence. That influence closed the door on what will be the One World Religion contained within the New World Order. And, it is secret cults who are doing their level best to usher in this New World Order, whether its lower level members are informed about this plot or not at the time of their initiation.

It is within that "world order" that the underlying principle of 'conquering the lay people' has the best chance of being fulfilled. And, when you control the mind you control the individual. If these individuals above were in their correct mind, in the mind of Jesus Christ, they would know not to bow to the anti-christ, the Papacy itself.

You ask - where's the proof of this plot? Here's a part of the proof:

Those that injected and began practicing Nicolaitanism in Roman Catholicism, secretly deemed lucifer to be a "saint." This is a fact that many in the false church are completely unaware of. The book Ritevale Romanvm (the Roman Rite) contains a Roman Rite chant that reads as follows:

"Flammas eius lucifer matutinus inveniat: ille, inquam, lucifer, qui nescit occasum Christus Filius tuus qui, regressus ab inferis, humano generi serenus illuxit, et vivit et regnat in saecula saeculorum."

Revelation 22:16

"I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star."

The Bible does refers to Jesus as the morning star, but never does the Bible refer to Jesus as lucifer.

This was done in the Ritevale Romanvm, which the so-called "Holy Roman Catholic Church" adopted. It is therefore, the Roman Rite that attempts to coalesce both Jesus Christ with lucifer, and thus it becomes easy to see how the Roman Catholic church has used lucifer as the focus of its pagan rituals, while covering their deeds by using ecclesiastical methods and practices that appear on the surface to represent true Christianity when indeed they do not.

There was a protestant reformation for a very good reason! The real Church needed one! The "church" had become corrupted by Roman and Papal influence and the deception has been massive in the earth.

The real Church desperately needed to be flushed out of his supremely un-holy alliance with Papal dogmatism born of satan himself. However, it is incorrect to assume that the masons were attempting to do this. That is part of the false church's secret lie. While the Papacy publicly denounces freemasonry, it strokes itself as god here in earth in Papal Bull 1302 - which is blasphemy in any language, no translation necessary.

Luciferianism & Freemasonry

The links are there for anyone with eyes to see.

Luciferianism, is at the heart of freemasonry. You can see it in everything ranging from its symbols to its ritualistic practices that have pagan systemic roots. Whether you focus on the masons so-called "holy trinity," where they secretly displace God the Father with Baphomet, or God the Son with Nehushtan, or God the Holy Spirit with Tah, the fact remains that its all satanic ritualism and worship with ancient Babylonian causation.

If you take a closer look at the masonic alter used in their lodge, you will note that it is supposed to be representative of the head of Baphomet (the Father) himself. However, they cannot do this directly. Therefore, they mask it with secret symbolism - because that's what secret societies do, they hide their true intention - else, why maintain 33 levels of secrecy.

This is why you will find four (4) horns, one on each corner of the alter as this represents the horns of Baphomet (forum won't let me post my pic but you can google it)

With the "light" above the alter representing the so-called "Hand of Glory."

Freemasonry, comes straight out of the ancient pagan mystery cults, but its modern interpretations and manifestations come through the gnostic branches and its attempt to completely invert Biblical Christian principles, namely, the way in which man reaches true enlightenment through self-realization and not through a genuine relationship with God the Father and His Son, Jesus the Christ.

It professes to know Christ and yet it worships at the alter of Baphomet in secret. That is the Occult by any other name.

This subject is likely deeper than any lower degree mason will understand. However, mason or not, one can do the homework necessary to clearly see the causation that lead to the effect of what you now call freemasonry - aka - just another luciferian tribe descended from the ancient Babylonian ethos of pagan/satan worship.

My intent is not to hurt you. My intent is to help you in this. May God bless you and may Jesus be your route to enlightenment, secure and whole until the day of His glorious return.

The Greatest Story I Never Understood

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Listening to TW4

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Andrea411

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Natura non facit saltum

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Basically pulling an Obama (Thanks Calminian!)

I trust in You

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