The greatest debate ever!

[Matt Never Existed]

Not really, but now that I have your attention, I'd like to point something out to everyone. I just took a quick look at the threads about homosexuality, and most of them get to the point of being locked because a few people just come into the topic with this "I'm right and if you don't believe what I say, then you're wrong and will burn forever" type of attitude.

Now, Lets honestly sit here for a second and think about these things:

1. We're in the Philosophy and Morality section of this forum.

2. This is for 'All Members', thus until you can prove the Bible is inerrant, and actually comes from 'God', then this can not be used as proof for any arguments. You don't build your house upon sand, as the tide will wash it away.

With all that in mind, answer me this. How can you prove that homosexuality is morally wrong/evil?

 

[Socrastein]

By proving it conflicts with your desires - considering that morality is a description of what is conducive to our desires.

However, the question then becomes "Are your desires reasonable?" to which I would say: not likely.

 

[psalms 91]

does the same hold true for evolution since it isnt proven and is only a theory, until you can apply the same rules to all i will continue to read and use the bible as there is a lot more evidence for it than for many others

 

[MoodyBlue]

Just a quick remark, before your thread gets shut down: I find it odd that people can discuss virtually any topic on CF, except for homosexuality.

 

[Madcoil]

We can't discuss HS? Ugh, that makes it sound like a disease...

 

[Paul-martin]

Gay have desire for outer men, just as femals who are marrige can ahve desire for outer men.

Now Femals who are unfaithful hurt the one around them. Gays who want sexual relations with outer men hurt god.

Now the question is what does it mean to hurt god, the man who have always exsisted, the man who is goodness impersonate.

 

[Paul-martin]

Just a quick remark, before your thread gets shut down: I find it odd that people can discuss virtually any topic on CF, except for homosexuality.

People have opinions, so yes they can discuss, but there opinions are not accepted, that is the conclusion i draw.

 

[Madcoil]

Also, calling someone "a degenerate piece of filth content not only to doom their own soul into the flaming bowels of helluja but to twist the children of good faithful people into following their perverted hijacking of all things right and moral", will at most times result in the classical "well you're a phamplet-waving bucket of inconsistency and hot air with your big empty extremist head thoroughly buried in the sands of blind religious doctrine and downright rascist republic(?) fundamentalist hatred of the unknown". This exchange, coupled with the unavoidable 20 to 30 "I think that people can be gay and still have a sound moral perspective.(in accordance with MY value of moral, sound, and indeed, perspective.) I also believe in freedom of religion, philosophy and cardboard boxes, I'm a vegan, and I think that all those christians you're talking about must be just a small group of angry white rascist in the south of Florida because that's where all extremists and old people live." will make the whole topic a drab and useless. A few posts after that, people will be shouting about scientific terms and sexual organs, just to get some life back into the discussion. In the end, it will all have been for nothing. (+ -)

 

[fluffy_rainbow]

This is for 'All Members', thus until you can prove the Bible is inerrant, and actually comes from 'God', then this can not be used as proof for any arguments. You don't build your house upon sand, as the tide will wash it away.

According to the forum rules regarding posts on homosexuality the Bible is valid evidence. Trying to defend your moral position by not using the biggest source of your moral guidance is like trying to win a canoe race with no oars.

 

[lillies_and_remains]

I don't see why people are reluctant to discuss homosexuality, it is nothing to be ashamed of and religious people shouldnt feel that god will not love them if they are gay because people may have made them believe that the way they are is wrong.God wants us to be happy, so surely he loves us whether we are homosexual or not and loves us for who we are as long as we are happy, is religion not supposed to be about tolerance and compassion?

 

[fluffy_rainbow]

is religion not supposed to be about tolerance and compassion?

It depends. Yes, God loves the homosexual as much as the next child of His; however, it is difficult to exercise compassion and tolerance towards a group of people who do not believe what they're doing is wrong. Why be silent when we know any lost person can have a much more fulfilling life in Christ.

I believe a person can be a homosexual and a Christian. It isn't the homosexual tendencies that are a sin, just as a man being inclined to be sexually attracted to red-heads isn't a sin. It's when you indulge in those inclinations that it becomes a sin. That applies to heterosexuals as well. I have a difficult time exercising compassion for heterosexual Christians who engage in pre-marital sex trying to justify it by saying it isn't really a sin, when the Bible is very clear on sexual immorality:

1 Corinthians 6:13-20
"[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica, Swiss, Sans Serif][font=Times, Times New Roman][size=+1] Yet the body is not for immorality, but for the Lord; and the Lord is for the body... Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take away the members of Christ and make them members of a harlot? May it never be!... Flee sexual immorality. Every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, but the immoral man sins against his own body... For you have been bought with a price; therefore glorify God in your body."[/font][/size][/font]

 

[creep]

what bugs me is that if i do something that is considered 'wrong', but by my own morals i don't think of it as being wrong, therefore i'm not sorry for it, i'm generally advised to ask god to help me realise that i'm wrong. It is actually asking for guilt.
religion is a confusion minefield.

i have no problem with gays. some of the best guys i know are gay

 

[fluffy_rainbow]

It is actually asking for guilt.

Guilt is not of God. Perhaps that is why you find it so confusing.

1 John 1:9
"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness."

1 Peter 2:24
"He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed."

Ephesians 1:5-6
"he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will– 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves."

Psalm 27:5-6
"For in the day of trouble he will keep me safe in his dwelling; he will hide me in the shelter of his tabernacle and set me high upon a rock. "

Lamentations 3:22
"Because of the LORD's great love we are not consumed, for his compassions never fail."

 

[lillies_and_remains]

It depends. Yes, God loves the homosexual as much as the next child of His; however, it is difficult to exercise compassion and tolerance towards a group of people who do not believe what they're doing is wrong. Why be silent when we know any lost person can have a much more fulfilling life in Christ.QUOTE]

I undertstand that the bible condems various sexual practises but honestly do you believe that every homosexual person is 'lost'. i know many who are completely fulfilled and happy, why should they give up their happiness, and follow christ? my best friend is homosexual and he is unbelievably happy with his partner. homosexuality is not about elicit 'wrong' sexual acts it is about companionship and love just as heterosexuality is.

I find it hard to swallow that people who are gay are expected to give up on their happiness and become something they know they are not, to live a life that other people accept.

 

[fluffy_rainbow]

I undertstand that the bible condems various sexual practises but honestly do you believe that every homosexual person is 'lost'

No I don't, hence why I said I believe someone can have homosexual tendencies and be a Christian. The big factor in all of this is that when we come to Christ and attain salvation we are to repent for our sins and recognize that we can't save ourselves. Repentence means to confess and then turn away from that sin. If someone is what I would call a practicing homosexual (meaning they are having sexual relations with members of the same sex) and they have no intentions of not doing that anymore then they can't be truly repentent.

[size=+1]Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor. 6:7-10).[/size]

homosexuality is not about elicit 'wrong' sexual acts it is about companionship and love just as heterosexuality is.

Believe me when I say this, this isn't some big conspiracy against homosexuality. I am just as adamant about Christians who engage in pre-marital sex. It isn't that homosexuality is the unforgivable sin or that their sexual indiscretions are any worse than those of a heterosexuals. If there is true repentence, they can be one with Christ just as me or any other heterosexual.

I find it hard to swallow that people who are gay are expected to give up on their happiness and become something they know they are not, to live a life that other people accept.

To me it isn't about what the world accepts. One my of best friends is gay and I never preach at him. He gets enough of that from his parents. He's a tremendous guy, but his lifestyle is dangerous. I would feel the same way if he was a sexually promiscuous heterosexual. And I'm not saying that all homosexuals are promiscuous; however, it has been proven that gay males are less inclined to be monogamous.

How about this comment from Dr. Martin Dannecker (a German sexologist, who studied 900 homosexuals in 1991 living in "steady relationships")? According to Dr. Dannecker, 83% of males had numerous sexual encounters outside their partnerships over a one-year period. Dr. Dannecker observed "clear differences in the manner of sexual gratification" between single and non-single gay men that were the reverse of what he expected. Of the homosexual men in steady relationships, he wrote," the average number of homosexual contacts per person was 115 in the past year." In contrast, single gay men had only 45 sexual contacts.

Homosexuality is a sexual sin just like porn addiction and adultery. Some people are born with the natural propensity to be a cheater. Does that excuse their actions?

 

[lillies_and_remains]

I know what you mean, I understand that you believe heterosexual lifestyles are also sinful outside of marriage, so then do you believe it is wrong for a homosexual couple to get married?

 

[fluffy_rainbow]

I know what you mean, I understand that you believe heterosexual lifestyles are also sinful outside of marriage, so then do you believe it is wrong for a homosexual couple to get married?

I do in the respect that it goes against both the God-ordained and societal designations as to what a marriage is - the legal union between one man and one woman.

 

[lillies_and_remains]

So the only way that a homosexual christian will be accepted is if they supress their feelings and not 'indulge' in homosexual acts, unlike a heterosexual couple - who have the chance to make their relationship accepted by marriage. Gay people have no chance? they just have to live a lie if they want to be christian and beg forgiveness to be accepted? then maybe force themselves to adopt a conventional lifestyle of getting married to a woman and having kids, which may work for some people but others do not so easily give up on their deepest feelings.
I know it is the union of a man and a woman that is sacred to you, but i feel it is outdated. and i dont see how it matters as long as it is a relationship based on love and companionship. i dont think it is a matter of being gay, it is a matter of being human, you or i could fall in love with another female tomorrow you never know. i think love can sometimes stretch beyond the confines of gender.

 

[Matt Never Existed]

Ok, just woke up. now to reply.

Gay have desire for outer men, just as femals who are marrige can ahve desire for outer men.

Now Femals who are unfaithful hurt the one around them. Gays who want sexual relations with outer men hurt god.

Now the question is what does it mean to hurt god, the man who have always exsisted, the man who is goodness impersonate.

What I don't get is how people can put someone who just wants to be who they are in the same 'class' as people who cheat on their husbands/wives? Also, as I said, unless you can prove that god exists, using Him as 'proof' doesn't hold water with me. Sorry. Next.

According to the forum rules regarding posts on homosexuality the Bible is valid evidence. Trying to defend your moral position by not using the biggest source of your moral guidance is like trying to win a canoe race with no oars.

Oi, but as I don't believe in God, your bible is just another book in my mind. Basicly, prove to me that my natural desires are wrong through a means that I would believe.

Also, the bible isn't the biggest source of moral guidance. That would be my mom, who doesn't believe in God. My dad is dead, and as such, can't give any moral guidance. As I've said, there are people who have never read the bible in their lives, and they have morals. The bible doesn't have a copyright on 'em.

The way I see it, we kinda have them ingrained in us at birth through watching and hearing out parents. Thats why my morals might be a bit different than someone elses, as each household is completely different. Next.

I don't see why people are reluctant to discuss homosexuality, it is nothing to be ashamed of and religious people shouldnt feel that god will not love them if they are gay because people may have made them believe that the way they are is wrong.God wants us to be happy, so surely he loves us whether we are homosexual or not and loves us for who we are as long as we are happy, is religion not supposed to be about tolerance and compassion?

That is by far the wisest thing I've read all day. Not many people like the idea that God will love you no matter who/what you do. If there is a God, why would he want me to feel guilty for living? I don't think he would. I think he would want me to live life to the fullest, loving each and every second, each and every breath. ^.^

It depends. Yes, God loves the homosexual as much as the next child of His; however, it is difficult to exercise compassion and tolerance towards a group of people who do not believe what they're doing is wrong. Why be silent when we know any lost person can have a much more fulfilling life in Christ.

This is the one argument I hate the most, and here's why. This puts the blame on me for God being silent. Trust me, when I did believe in God, he was still very silent. But through this arguement, it was my fault.

No I don't, hence why I said I believe someone can have homosexual tendencies and be a Christian. The big factor in all of this is that when we come to Christ and attain salvation we are to repent for our sins and recognize that we can't save ourselves. Repentence means to confess and then turn away from that sin. If someone is what I would call a practicing homosexual (meaning they are having sexual relations with members of the same sex) and they have no intentions of not doing that anymore then they can't be truly repentent.

Thats all well and good, but I ask that if you are going to explain the 'act' of repentence, I ask that you tell it to them through a Private Message. This has no bearing in what we're talking about here. Thank you for understanding.

Homosexuality is a sexual sin just like porn addiction and adultery. Some people are born with the natural propensity to be a cheater. Does that excuse their actions?

Sorry, but I have to disagree witht his statement 100%. What you've done is compare apples and oranges. No one is born a cheater, they learn it from their enviroment as a child. Parents are the biggest influence in a childs live. I do believe though, that homosexuality isn't one of these things a child can 'learn', regardless of things that might happen to him/her. Could you do such a thing now, learn to be gay? No. The idea probably doesn't sit well in your stomach.

I do in the respect that it goes against both the God-ordained and societal designations as to what a marriage is - the legal union between one man and one woman.

As I don't believe in God, why should I be told I can't marry my lifepartner because 'he' doesn't approve? Also, social designations have and always will change. Today, we think nothing of inter-racial marriages, but when the first one happened, there were people with signs yelling it was agaisnt God, and it was the end of the world. Eventually, people realized it wasn't the end of the world, and people moved on.

If you ask High School students today if they believe homosexual unions to be wrong, You'll be suprised to find that most are for it, and a very slim number is against it. If you were to also ask what religion these kids are, you'd find that a large sum consider themselves christian, and the others would come from various faiths, or lack there of. My point is this: Times are changing.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Anyways, all this is well and good, but it doesn't answer my origianal question. Can you prove that homosexuality is morally wrong?

 

[Matt Never Existed]

I know it is the union of a man and a woman that is sacred to you, but i feel it is outdated. and i dont see how it matters as long as it is a relationship based on love and companionship. i dont think it is a matter of being gay, it is a matter of being human, you or i could fall in love with another female tomorrow you never know. i think love can sometimes stretch beyond the confines of gender.

Amen! ^.^

I agree completely, and thats how I live my love life. Who cares if its a male or female. If I love them, and they love me, does it matter? Nope. Love transcends over everything, even gender. The world moves for love. It stands in awe of it.