"The Greatest Conceivable Being"

anonymous person said:

Men's pride and "moral and intellectual integrity" keeps them out of heaven my friend. .

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No, there is no pride in "I don't know, and I'm dust when I'm dead". There is profound pride in "I have all the answers, and I'm too special to die".

Further, if man hadn't insisted on intellectual integrity you'd still be squatting on a flat earth, and you wouldn't know where the sun went at night. Next time you think intellectual integrity is a problem, consider what it has gained you, and humanity.

Locutus said:

I can almost not believe I'm reading this. The corrupting power of religion appears to know no bounds.

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Why can you almost not believe you are reading this?

quatona said:

Reminds me of the Mafia´s protection money policy - with some additional emotionalisms thrown in, for good measure.

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If in imposing your strong arm tactics, you appeal to human vanity, you'll be fly. As long as they're also too self-satisfied to take a closer look at just who's in control.

anonymous person said:

Why can you almost not believe you are reading this?

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The abusive boyfriend thing. You worship a god who is patently far worse than same.

Locutus said:

No, there is no pride in "I don't know, and I'm dust when I'm dead". There is profound pride in "I have all the answers, and I'm too special to die".

Further, if man hadn't insisted on intellectual integrity you'd still be squatting on a flat earth, and you wouldn't know where the sun went at night. Next time you think intellectual integrity is a problem, consider what it has gained you, and humanity.

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I was referencing that pride which prevents a man from seeing his need for a saviour, specifically Jesus Christ.

So don't think I have something against the proper use of the intellect.

Locutus said:

The abusive boyfriend thing. You worship a god who is patently far worse than same.

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Abusive boyfriend?

Were we talking about an abusive boyfriend?

anonymous person said:

I was referencing that pride which prevents a man from seeing his need for a saviour, specifically Jesus Christ.

So don't think I have something against the proper use of the intellect.

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Oh right. That would be the same pride your exhibit in not seeing your need for all those other saviours (gods) out there. That's cool then, we're on the same page

anonymous person said:

Abusive boyfriend?

Were we talking about an abusive boyfriend?

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Figure of speech. Could be the violent rapist. Either way, it's "submit or suffer the consequences of my brutality", then saying the victim had a 'choice'.

anonymous person said:

Since when did an utterance become meaningless just because it is an expression of someone's personal preference?

If that is the case, everything you just said is meaningless. Its not quantifiable.

"Meaningless".

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When you're discussing an argument that requires an objective definition to be coherent.

You would think that someone that for some reason keeps posting to the Philosophy would understand this...

anonymous person said:

According to some here, what you just said is meaningless because it is not quantifiable and is just your opinion.

What would you say to such a person?

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Are you sure that English is your first language? Because you still don't seem to be getting it.

anonymous person said:

I don't see it being an issue of "blame" really.

I see it as an issue of her wanting something and getting what she wants.

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Oh, so you're suggesting that she really wants to be treated that way?

Jeremy (@anonymous person), you've hit new lows with your apologetics.

anonymous person said:

I don't see it being an issue of "blame" really.

I see it as an issue of her wanting something and getting what she wants.

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I guess it would be difficult to continue holding your beliefs and accept the obvious conclusions here.

Do you think people want to be in hell?

Locutus said:

Figure of speech. Could be the violent rapist. Either way, it's "submit or suffer the consequences of my brutality", then saying the victim had a 'choice'.

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I think this actually serves a point I am making.

For some, they find God to be offensive. He is just really a bad guy. To be compelled to spend eternity with such a bad person would be a very bad thing. God understands how you feel about Him and does not want you to have to spend eternity with Him if you don't want to.

The thing is, if what the new testament authors says is true, we all are appointed to die once, and then we are judged for what we have done with the lives God has given us, whether good or bad. Those who rejected God's offer of salvation through His Son Jesus, will answer for their own doings and will receive what their works merit. Those who have been covered and have had the blood of Jesus applied to their lives and have gone on to show this regeneration by good works, will receive eternal life.

I don't think anyone really has any misgivings about being free. That seems to be the rallying cry by most today. "I want to be free to live, to let live, and to do with my body what I please! Free from religion, free from oppression, etc. etc."

I know of no people who have ever marched the streets by the thousands chanting, "Down with freedom, and up with oppression!"

Nor do I think anyone really has any misgivings about people being justly judged for the evil they commit. I mean, with all of the indignation I see from people here about certain things they judge to be evil, I am pretty sure we can all agree that we should not only judge justly, but should encourage the just judgment of the people who do that which is deserving of judgment.

Nor do we really have any misgivings about love. We recognize that love is a two way street and as such, it can always be received or rejected and we can always love others or make excuses for why we should not love.

I think the real issue, is that Jesus of all people, is most offensive to some because He claimed that people, at the end of the day, are fundamentally, broken. That there is a way that men ought to live, and know it, but fail to and as a result of this failure, they are estranged to their Creator. That there is One greater than man who knows all, sees all, and is above all, Holy and that because of this, will hold us all accountable. Inside of this and actually over it all, stands the cross. The cross is offensive to many because it is a symbol of how nasty we are. The cross is ugly. It is nasty. And deep down inside, the cross is something that testifies against them. What better way for some to deal with this ugly reality, but to shut their eyes and ears and pretend it does not exist, or that if it exists, it is nothing more than the creation of a handful of superstitious Jews.

Islam is feared and hated by many because it poses a threat to their physical well-being. Christianity is feared and hated by many because it poses a threat to that part of them which is not just atoms and matter. Jihadists can be fought and their efforts can be quelled with the appropriate socio-economic and geopolitical responses. But you cannot fight against Christ and win. The long procession of the attempts throughout history to do so reveal that the bible is the anvil that has worn out many a hammer. The Church, that universal body of believers throughout the world and throughout the ages remains. It grows not despite the oppression, censorship, and persecution it faces, but through it. Augustine and Aquinas rightly pointed to this fact as the miracle God has furnished for all to behold and marvel. It was no less than Napoleon himself who spoke of Christ as being the Great Conqueror who cares not for men's lands or territories, money or national resources, but yea, for the very hearts of men themselves.

I think the best thing for all of us here would be to drop the pretense and just state plainly what the real issues are. We can all be politicians, we can all be politically correct. That is easy. Just say nothing. Or if you say something, see to it that whatever you say is sufficiently ambiguous or is qualified by "this is true for me but might not be for you" and you will do well.

At the end of the day it is recorded that Jesus made some claims that are unique to Him and Him alone. Thus, they are worthy of at minimum, our thoughtful consideration.

anonymous person said:

...
At the end of the day it is recorded that Jesus made some claims that are unique to Him and Him alone. Thus, they are worthy of at minimum, our thoughtful consideration.

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And if we reject them after thoughtful consideration?

Ana the Ist said:

I guess it would be difficult to continue holding your beliefs and accept the obvious conclusions here.

Do you think people want to be in hell?

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Oh no. People in general want to be comfortable and at ease. Hell is no such place. They want to live lives of pleasure and in general have an aversion to suffering, pain, and judgment and punishment.

I know that is how I am anyway, that is, my carnal natural self.

I guess I could just ask you a hypothetical question.

Assuming that you either go to one of two places once this life passes away, where would you want to go?

Heaven or hell?

Archaeopteryx said:

And if reject them after thoughtful consideration?

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I don't understand you.

Did you mean to say, "And if I reject them...."?

anonymous person said:

I don't understand you.

Did you mean to say, "And if I reject them...."?

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"We." By the way, all religions make claims unique to that religion. Yours isn't special.

Archaeopteryx said:

"We." By the way, all religions make claims unique to that religion. Yours isn't special.

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Ok "we" it is. You all reject them if you reject them. If you think that means that I think you can feign ignorance before God, then you are wrong. But see, we have already covered this.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools....

From the above it seems clear enough to me that:

A. We are all unrighteous, that is you, me, and everyone else.
B. We all suppress the truth in unrighteousness.
C. What can be known about God is manifest to all of us.
D. How? God shows us.
E. In what way? The things He has made are clearly seen
F. We are without excuse.
G. We all knew God, but did not glorify Him, neither were thankful (see my signature)
H. We become vain in our imaginations and our hearts are darkened
I. Claiming we are wise, we are really fools.

This tells me that before you and I die, we will have been brought to a place where our unbelief was inexcusable. IOW, it won't be because we did not have enough evidence, but it will be, if we persist in unbelief, because we are unrighteous.

Jesus made claims that no one has ever made about themselves. That was my point. Do you agree or disagree?