The Grand Challenge!

[Veritas21]

I believe that many theists attribute things to God simply because they do not understand the science behind it. As such, I would like to challenge any theist to state a biological or psychological phenomenon that they think can only be attributed to God, and I will explain the science behind it (probably with the assistance of other science people on this website). PLEASE READ POSTING RULES FIRST!

Rules:
1. This is intended to educate non-science people because there is a clear lack of fundamental scientific understanding. Science posters are to state the facts, do not state opinions. Theists should try to educate themselves and ask serious questions, not be closed minded.
2. All posts MUST be backed by legitimate, peer reviewed articles, not unreliable third party sources like wikipedia.
3. I would like to avoid questions with rediculously complicated answers such as "How did the universe begin?" There is strong evidence supporting physical phenomenon rather than spiritual, but you would need a PhD in physics and your entire life devoted to reading about it to understand it in any reasonable detail. My background is in biology and psychology, so I would like to stick to those questions if possible.
4. Science people should not post on things they are not well educated in. If they do, this is an opinion and not well grounded fact.

BEGIN!

 

[Holy Roller]

I believe that many theists attribute things to God simply because they do not understand the science behind it. As such, I would like to challenge any theist to state a biological or psychological phenomenon that they think can only be attributed to God, and I will explain the science behind it (probably with the assistance of other science people on this website). PLEASE READ POSTING RULES FIRST!

Rules:
1. This is intended to educate non-science people because there is a clear lack of fundamental scientific understanding. Science posters are to state the facts, do not state opinions. Theists should try to educate themselves and ask serious questions, not be closed minded.
2. All posts MUST be backed by legitimate, peer reviewed articles, not unreliable third party sources like wikipedia.
3. I would like to avoid questions with rediculously complicated answers such as "How did the universe begin?" There is strong evidence supporting physical phenomenon rather than spiritual, but you would need a PhD in physics and your entire life devoted to reading about it to understand it in any reasonable detail. My background is in biology and psychology, so I would like to stick to those questions if possible.
4. Science people should not post on things they are not well educated in. If they do, this is an opinion and not well grounded fact.

BEGIN!

Dude. I just got back from being banned at a prominent Atheist forum (richarddawkins forum) for being on the verge of proving that Atheist beliefs and quantum mechanics can't coexist. This was after I challenged the people there to a Formal Debate on the matter.
Only one Atheist accepted my challenge; the others admitted to their ignorance on the issue.
Thus, how can you say that theists are scientifically illiterate, when your own people are admitedly so?

Also, you're contradicting yourself by not following your own rules. For example, you say that only 'sience people' should post, even though you being of unsound scientific mind started the thread.

Third, did you not read the Reader's Digest issue years back that showed prayer works as a biological healing therapy? Granted, we're not dealing with peer-reviewed research work, but the results of the article did show that prayer beat a placebo in the study (which was not reviewed in any way by the FDA). While the therapy results were not official, they were nonetheless scientific.

Fourth, the creation of the Universe is a natural phenomenon, so why can't you explain it in the framework of cause and effect? I know why you can't, but do you know why you can't?

There is a vacuuous depravity of scientific competence over at the richarddawkins forum. Why don't you go over there and enlighten them? Since the scientifically inept at that forum far outnumber the inept here, one would think you'd acheive your goal with greater results over there. Wouldn't you agree?

 

[TemperateSeaIsland]

being on the verge of proving that Atheist beliefs and quantum mechanics can't coexist

This sounds interesting... Care to outline your "proof" in the Physical and life sciences forum?

 

[Blayz]

This sounds interesting... Care to outline your "proof" in the Physical and life sciences forum?

Now I know who to blame.

 

[TemperateSeaIsland]

Now I know who to blame.

Hey! I was curious.

 

[BobW188]

You pick two sciences, then challenge us to come up with phenomena you can't prove scientifically.
Why do I think the pea ain't under none of the shells?

 

[paug]

You pick two sciences, then challenge us to come up with phenomena you can't prove scientifically.
Why do I think the pea ain't under none of the shells?

I'd consider this forum more like a place for brave Christians to air their doubts about e.g. evolution. If they have something to ask, post it here. E.g. "What's this Rabbits in the Pre-Cambrian stuff?".

Then other people answer.

 

[Veritas21]

Forgive my absence, but I have been doing quite a bit of research lately and have not been able to attend these forums with regularity.

Dude. I just got back from being banned at a prominent Atheist forum (richarddawkins forum) for being on the verge of proving that Atheist beliefs and quantum mechanics can't coexist. This was after I challenged the people there to a Formal Debate on the matter.
Only one Atheist accepted my challenge; the others admitted to their ignorance on the issue.
Thus, how can you say that theists are scientifically illiterate, when your own people are admitedly so?

I do not claim that all theists are scientifically illiterate, nor do I claim that all athiest are scientifically literate. I believe that athiests that do not understand the science that rejects theism are just as ignorant as those theists who reject science. However, you must consider the magnitude of scientific knowledge. Explaining the world in terms of God is mindless and simple, and can be achieved by many people with little effort. Explaining the world in terms of science and empirical experimentation / observation is highly complex, difficult, and requires extensive study in a small area of research. As such, it seems reasonable that no scientist could explain all natural phenomenon in perfect detail, but rather, they COULD address any issues brought forth in their area of study. I am not a physicist, so I will not discuss the origin of the universe. I am knowledgable in biochemistry and psychology, so I will discuss evolution, natural explanations for disease, and why "free will" does not exist.

Also, you're contradicting yourself by not following your own rules. For example, you say that only 'sience people' should post, even though you being of unsound scientific mind started the thread.

Sound scientific mind in its simplest form is lending oneself to objectivity. By this definition, I am entirely of sound scientific mind. You should state what credentials you have before you try discrediting mine.

Third, did you not read the Reader's Digest issue years back that showed prayer works as a biological healing therapy? Granted, we're not dealing with peer-reviewed research work, but the results of the article did show that prayer beat a placebo in the study (which was not reviewed in any way by the FDA). While the therapy results were not official, they were nonetheless scientific.

If the work was truly scientific then why would they be afraid to submit it as a peer reviewed publication? I have read numerous studies like this and ALL that were conducted as object peer reviewed experiments demonstrated NO statistically significant difference in effect. I would stay away from public propoganda if I were you. Many magazines exaggerate and misrepresent studies and claims. Best to go to the source.

Fourth, the creation of the Universe is a natural phenomenon, so why can't you explain it in the framework of cause and effect? I know why you can't, but do you know why you can't?

My area of study does not involve this topic, so I would take this part of the debate to someone who is educated in physics and can discuss this with you. If you would like to debate on anything that I am studying I would be more than happy to do so. You wouldn't debate with a plummer on the best way to wire a house, you would debate with him on the best way to setup the plumming.

There is a vacuuous depravity of scientific competence over at the richarddawkins forum. Why don't you go over there and enlighten them? Since the scientifically inept at that forum far outnumber the inept here, one would think you'd acheive your goal with greater results over there. Wouldn't you agree?

I haven't gone to the forums themselves, but Richard Dawkins is a brilliant scientist whom is well respected within the academic community. I would argue that since this is a christian forum, the scientifically inept and rationally deprived reside here. You have assisted in confirming these suspicions.

 

[Braunwyn]

Third, did you not read the Reader's Digest issue years back that showed prayer works as a biological healing therapy? Granted, we're not dealing with peer-reviewed research work, but the results of the article did show that prayer beat a placebo in the study (which was not reviewed in any way by the FDA). While the therapy results were not official, they were nonetheless scientific.

I realize this post is a few days old but it's the first I've seen of it. Recently another user here on CF was proclaiming similar but he couldn't provide any information on the topic. Please provide any credible evidence you have that prayer works. Some time ago I read an article from Nature debunking a study attempting to show the power of prayer but that's about it.

 

[Braunwyn]

I do not claim that all theists are scientifically illiterate, nor do I claim that all athiest are scientifically literate. I believe that athiests that do not understand the science that rejects theism are just as ignorant as those theists who reject science.

What does this mean if you wouldn't mind clarifying? Last I knew science does not entertain theism let alone reject it.

However, you must consider the magnitude of scientific knowledge. Explaining the world in terms of God is mindless and simple, and can be achieved by many people with little effort. Explaining the world in terms of science and empirical experimentation / observation is highly complex, difficult, and requires extensive study in a small area of research. As such, it seems reasonable that no scientist could explain all natural phenomenon in perfect detail, but rather, they COULD address any issues brought forth in their area of study. I am not a physicist, so I will not discuss the origin of the universe. I am knowledgable in biochemistry and psychology, so I will discuss evolution, natural explanations for disease, and why "free will" does not exist.

Eh, I wouldn't call psychology a science but that debate is for another thread. There are quite a few exceptional scientists that hang around this forum with expertise ranging from geology and chem to physics. Check out some older threads in crevo, they're really enjoyable to read.

I would argue that since this is a christian forum, the scientifically inept and rationally deprived reside here. You have assisted in confirming these suspicions.

eta: geeze louise, that's pretty presumptuous and rude of you. One member I can think of is christian and reads as a perfectly apt scientist from where I sit.

 

[Veritas21]

What does this mean if you wouldn't mind clarifying? Last I knew science does not entertain theism let alone reject it.

I am saying that blind faith in theism is just as bad as blind faith in science. Individuals should educate themselves on the facts, then make a decision. I, of course, believe that people who do educate themselves on the facts will end up accepting science.

Eh, I wouldn't call psychology a science but that debate is for another thread.

We'll let this one go for now, but my focus is on neural science and biopsychology, which is very scientific in nature. I am not really referring to social psychology or things of that nature, but point taken.

eta: geeze louise, that's pretty presumptuous and rude of you. One member I can think of is christian and reads as a perfectly apt scientist from where I sit.

A bit rude yes, and I apologize. Mr "athiest hunter" was annoying me by the time I got through his entire thread. I am simply curious how any scientist could be a theist, since science clearly conflicts with religious dogma.

 

[keith99]

I realize this post is a few days old but it's the first I've seen of it. Recently another user here on CF was proclaiming similar but he couldn't provide any information on the topic. Please provide any credible evidence you have that prayer works. Some time ago I read an article from Nature debunking a study attempting to show the power of prayer but that's about it.

I'm not going to try to look things up. But I am going to point out something on study design and make comments based on my memory.

The standard study design is double blind, neither researchers nor partents know who is getting the new drug and who is getting a placebo.

Now to prayer studies. I am not aware of any double blind studies that showed statictically significant differences between prayer and non prayer. I believe one study had the results that patients who were prayed for did worse. (I believe it was not a statictically significant difference).

But if we go to less rigourous studies where the patient does know there have been studies that show prayer helps. Now if we ask the question are there studies that show God answers prayers for healing it would seem the double blind studies say no. If we are asking is it worthwhile to pray for friends, in particular friends who believe in prayer the non double blind studies do say yes it helps (and that you should let them know you are praying for them).

Different questions, different answers.